hey katalina i think its great you got your lab spayed after her 1 litter unlike other breeders you only bred your girl once and spayed her its good to hear you got them health checked and they found forever homes

Thank you woody. I am one of the responsible one time breeders. I definatly don't rehome my dogs because she is no longer of use in the breeding ring. Love my dogs to bits and they are my family. They get the luxury's we get. My dogs are for life.

> I am one of the responsible one time breeders.

I think your idea of responsible breeding and the majority of posters here may be a world apart.  I don't suppose you bothered to endorse any of your puppies.

No stooge i did not endorse any of my puppies KC. If i don't agree with it i'm not going to do it. At the end of the day i know they are all healthy. My lab had numerous FTCH but that doesn't mean i have to endorse my litter. People can still breed regardless it doesn't mean they are not going to be pedigree if they weren't kc'd. Kennel Club have enough critism anyway as to it is only their trust on the breeders part as to who the stud is. It stipulates this on their site.  A pedigree pup is pedigree wheather KC registered or not.

> its good to hear you got them health checked

Do people actually understand what health testing means?

This does not mean a once over at the vets listening to heart etc.

It means screening for known hereditary issues in the breed or dogs in general.

Such as Hip Scoring, Elbow scoring, Eye testing, DNA testing etc.

If Katelina's bitch was Hip scored with a good result (certainly below 20, preferably lower) Had been Elbow scored as 0 or at worst 1, been eye tested clear, and also DNA tested or Hereditary clear for the eye disease prcd-PRA, was also an outstanding example of her breed in conformation or an outstanding working bitch, then I congratulate her on their litter.

As Labradors are the most numerous breed, with over 40,000 puppies registered with the kennel club, there is hardly any need to breed more unless the parents are outstanding.

If the pups were sold without endorsements I bet you would be most sad if they were bred from without health testing, too young or too often?  Perhaps they would be less likely to fall into the hands of those who will exploit them purely for breeding if they were endorsed, else all that Love, not to mention time and money spent on expensive health screening tests to breed a good litter will have been wasted?

I care about my individual dogs, (who I do keep for their whole lives), but also care deeply about their puppies and their potential offspring and the breed too. 

Hi Katalina and Woodkay 21 and welcome to the forum, I am fairly new here myself.
Endorsing a puppies registration does not take away any freedoms from the new owners, and the precedure is usually explained to the new owner when they first contact the breeder. And again when the new owner comes to visit, it is also usual for the new owner and breeder to sign a contract.
Some breeds now have this procedure stipulated in the Breed Clubs Guidelines, so breeders are adhering to the the rules of their breed club.
Once health test have been completed and the breeder is happy that the dog or bitch is a good example of the breed the endorsment can be lifted.
Most of us spend a lot of money attending shows, so that our dogs can be judged against the Breed Standard, with entry fees, petrol etc. it costs in the region of at least £100 per show, if an overnight stay is involved and if several dogs are being exhibited £200 would not be unusual times this by 10 plus shows per year. Plus the cost of health tests, I have just recently spent nearly £400 for tests for my youngster.
I have had one litter in the last thirty years, so needed to buy in a whelping box, Vet Bed, puppy pen, emergency items for the birth as well as the best food for the mother and her puppies. Wormers, heat lamp and lots of other items were all needed. I also had to travel a considerable distance to the stud dog, and the stud fee was the price of a puppy.
Things don't always go to plan and the first time my bitch was mated despite having three blood tests at the vets at £48 each including laboratory fees she did not become pregnant, so the whole process had to be repeated. A further stay away from home, more blood tests, and no gurantee that puppies would result.
I only bred a litter as I wanted a puppy myself, and as my bitch was a SH CH she was considered to be a very good example of the breed. I spent several nights without sleep during the birthing process and three weeks sleeping next to mum and her puppies. I loved my girls babies so much, and letting the other puppies go, despite the fact they in most cases they were going to existing freinds within the breed was to say the least heart breaking.
I felt it was my duty to protect my puppies for the rest of their lives, that is why they were sold with a contract and their papers endorsed. Most of the breeders I know would not sell a puppy any other way, it is not done to be awkward to the new owner, but because they are responsible breeders, who love their puppies and what to do the very best they can to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands in the future.
I hope this helps to explain why breeders place endorsements on registrations.

> I hope this helps to explain why breeders place endorsements on registrations.

Excellent post.

at brainless were not brainless we no the diffence between an health test and screening etc and to all you showing your dogs ive read a lot about your cost at showing and breeding your dogs is a way to pay for this is this really justifiable ?

>Why would anyone even consider breeding from anything but the best.

Because in some breeds it's virtually impossible to buy anything half decent, and you may be driven to considering breeding from an adequate dog because nobody will sell you a good one, let alone the best!

woodykay21 - you just don't get it, do you!  To you it seems to be all about the money. To us responsible breeders it isn't.

I don't breed to pay for my showing. It wouldn't anyway, but it's not why I do it. I breed rarely - if I have a bitch good enough to breed from (sound temperament, good example of the breed with good health test results) and if I can find a dog that is suitable and if I want to keep a puppy for myself (or place with a trusted friend), and if I have enough good homes available and if I have the time to do it all properly. A lot of "if"s - and none of them to do with making money.

> c'mon what is the point in having a top pedigree dog with a worthless kc paper

Can't see what you mean My dog is has a kc reg pedigree, however it does NOT make him a 'top pedigree'. He is the best dog in the world as far as I'm concerned but he is not a shining example of the breed, he is too shy, has confirmation faults, and elbow displasia. Only a complete and utter money-grabbing moron would even consider breeding from him. He has nothing to offer the breed in terms of betterment or continuation of great qualities. He is absolutely loved to pieces but he is NOT fit for breeding from.

A KC reg pedigree is a checkable record of parantage, NOT a quality stamp. Each dogs needs to be assessed for it's value to the breed before it can be considered as breeding material by a RESPONSIBLE breeder.
Sadly people use the KC reg pedigree as some sort of 'label' (like designer clothing) to make a quick buck, with no thought past "but she would make a lovely mum" or "I want another like the mum/dad" or "I can make some money".

I think it would be a great idea that EVERY single KC reg'd dog were to have many restrictions on it's pedigree to start with, only to be lifted after numerous criteria were met - but I'm just a pet owner who will never breed even 'just one' litter, so I have no quick buck to loose by that.........

>Because in some breeds it's virtually impossible to buy anything half decent, and you may be driven to considering breeding from an adequate dog because nobody will sell you a good one, let alone the best!

This exactly why puppy farms and less than reputable breeders exist. There is obviously a demand for certain breeds which is not supplied by responsible breeders.

I often see "I only breed when I want to keep a puppy for myself" touted by breeders on here. Isn't that potentially a little short sighted ?

Is there not an argument for responsible breeders to bred more frequently and therefore satsify more of the demand from the public. If you have the time and you know what you are doing what is wrong with breeding a litter purely to satisfy the demands of the public ? By doing this you will have more better bred dogs in your breed and therefore the overall quality of the breed will be improved.

By leaving puppy farmers and irresponsible breeders to take up the slack you are potentially doing your breed a disservice.

> I often see "I only breed when I want to keep a puppy for myself" touted by breeders on here. Isn't that potentially a little short sighted ?

> By leaving puppy farmers and irresponsible breeders to take up the slack you are potentially doing your breed a disservice.

I agree with you. Only trouble is, I usually want to keep the most promising pup, and would soon run out of space if I did it more often. We always put a lot of thought and research into any litter we breed, and it would be a bit galling to have to part with a potential star! It's bad enough that we don't keep males any more, but at least we try to place a promising male in a potential show home.

>I agree with you. Only trouble is, I usually want to keep the most promising pup, and would soon run out of space if I did it more often. We always put a lot of thought and research into any litter we breed, and it would be a bit galling to have to part with a potential star! It's bad enough that we don't keep males any more, but at least we try to place a promising male in a potential show home.

Oh yes, I totally understand why it's so hard to get a good puppy - of course it's quite right and only natural for the breeder to want the best puppy. But it does make it hard for those of us who want to become good breeders of show quality dogs. :-)

I have been placing endorsements on ALL my litters (including pups I keep) since my first litter in 1989, and not one owner has questioned my reasons why they are placed. If any potential owner was unhappy they are not going to get a puppy from me.

Speaking to other breeders endorsements are standard practice now.

> it's quite right and only natural for the breeder to want the best puppy. But it does make it hard for those of us who want to become good breeders of show quality dogs. :-)

I know, I can see it from both sides too. Wish I knew what the answer was. Probably MarkAdmin has it right.

Brainless if you read up the posts i have already said my bitch was health tested. I am not totally naive i do know what health testing means you do not have to explain to me. I did not mean health tested where it was just a quick check at the vets job done. She had had her hips, eyes and elbows done.

Dorcas0161 thank you very much in your explanation to me. You are very polite and i take on board your explantion. I was just saying my point was that some breeders you have to show your dogs to have them lifted and not every person who has a dog wants to show them. I know a lot of breeders do lift them when the pups have had all their essential eye and hip scores etc i am just talking about the ones where they expect you have to show your dog and have the winning rosettes etc for them to be lifted. Thank you once again for your explantion. It is nice for someone to explain without being critical because someone has a different opinion which i see a lot of on here. Wish there were more people like you on here.

Can I just ask do you not see the merit of proving a dog in the show ring or working trials to be able to prove he quality of a dog before entering into breeding a dog? Just because a dog has good health tests doesn't mean it is a good example of the breed and could have some terrible faults and also excellant temperament is a vital factor when considering breeding . People aren't being difficult or confrontational they are just saying the facts about everything a good ethical breeder should be considering.

> Can I just ask do you not see the merit of proving a dog in the show ring or working trials to be able to prove he quality of a dog before entering into breeding a dog?

I have to say I can certainly see the merit of this. But I can also see the merit in breeding dogs as pets by pet breeders as long as they look after the dogs properly and health test. The demand for pet dogs is much higher than the best breeders can meet hence there is a market for puppy farmers.

> Is there not an argument for responsible breeders to bred more frequently and therefore satisfy more of the demand from the public. If you have the time and you know what you are doing what is wrong with breeding a litter purely to satisfy the demands of the public ? By doing this you will have more better bred dogs in your breed and therefore the overall quality of the breed will be improved.
>
> By leaving puppy farmers and irresponsible breeders to take up the slack you are potentially doing your breed a disservice.

There are several issues here.

Regarding demand sadly often the demand is from people who really should not be having a dog, or a dog of that particular breed, and they would not pass muster with a good breeder.

You only need to look at some of the very lame and casual reasons people give up their dogs to rescue, occasionally there are really good reasons due to unforeseeable life changes, but often it is easy come easy go.

The there is that fact that to breed properly and ethically not only costs money but requires more time and ongoing commitment to the puppies bred, than people with busy lives and limited resources can afford.  Even with small numbers available it can still sometimes take some time to find the right homes, rarely all homes sorted by 8 weeks.

In many instances people do not have the time or facilities to breed, and more so be in a position to take back and rehabilitate and re-home erstwhile puppies who may be impossible to blend in with the usual companion environment.  Most modern day breeders do not have kennels.

I breed more litters than I keep puppies, but every litter is bred with enhancement of future breding plans or the overall gene pool in mind, because we are a numerically small breed.  To breed just one litter from each generation would not actually help me develop knowledge of my breeding lines as having more than one litter with different mates allows me to see which combinations work best, which faults and which positive traits are coming from my bitch, which enables me to make more informed decisions in future.

The hope is that the best of each litter may go on to be shown and or bred from and give me something to incorporate with my breeding down the line.

If I had a very numerically strong breed with plenty of people using the same lines, a huge number in rescue and being bred by puppy farmers then I probably would only breed one litter per generation when I wanted a puppy for myself, ass there would be no need for me to lay so much of the foundations for future breeding possibilities.

Sadly even with less than 50 puppies bred last year we get a steady trickle of dogs through rescue bred by BYB and puppy farmers (mostly in Northern Ireland) sold through commercial outlets and bought on a whim.  We currently have i believe 3 older males in rescue and no homes forthcoming.  Foster homes would e ideal, but those of us in the breed often cannot accommodate an adult male if we have entire bitches or males of our own.

Currently someone who is pregnant is advertising two 6 month old pups (brother and sister) they bought together from a BYB.  The fear is someone will buy them and use them as a breeding pair, as they are not KC reg but have mickey mouse papers, people would end up buying pups without realising they were from litter mates as the people breeding could put anything down on a pedigree.

Also a lot of breeders have bought into the argument that every litter bred adds to the rescue problem, so they keep their breeding to a minimum.

A classic example is the Show Greyhound.  Very low numbers bred, as most breeders will only breed every few years for their own needs and that of friends already within the breed or those wanting to show, and send potential pet only owners to rescue, because of the huge numbers of ex racing dogs in need of homes.  This must make it very hard to have a sufficient gene pool of show type dogs, which I find very beautiful, due to their more elegant lines).

> Is there not an argument for responsible breeders to bred more frequently and therefore satsify more of the demand from the public.

The trouble is, Mark, a goodly percentage of that public are really not able to offer an adequate home for a dog although I do agree there is nothing wrong with having a litter if you do have enough decent enquiries whether or not you plan to keep one. 

ok to all the people that seem to think i missunderstood what a kc paper i believe me i no i have 2 of them in front of me 1 for a show cocker with no endorsments and 1 for a working cocker which are pets only... you make out anyone who has an opinion which is all it is out to be thick as two short planks which is not the case.... however on this thread alone i see that a few of you have stated of your own admission that you make no mney from breeding as the money you make goes back to the dog so it can be shown in the ring that was all i was saying.. you seem to jump on anyone who has an opinion that you dont like and gang up on people who 1 time breed etc and to be honest both my dogs was bought off a farm (not a puppy mill) before you all start having an hissy fit over that..it was a working farm that knew the names of thier puppys and not just colours on a collar !!!

and mastifflower i no what a kc --- its a generation paper so you can trace the generations of dogs like a family tree :)

share the love

> however on this thread alone i see that a few of you have stated of your own admission that you make no mney from breeding as the money you make goes back to the dog so it can be shown in the ring

I think I may have mentioned that if there is a perceived surplus between the amount it has cost to breed and rear the litter and what comes back in puppy sales, that this might cover a couple of show entry fees.

Actually my dogs cost me even before any entries for shows way more than any surplus on puppy sales.  Do the math on keeping five or 6 dogs, most of which will be veterans. 

Even with a very healthy trouble free dog all it's life the last journey alone can cost several hundred pounds as it did for my Kizi in August on a Saturday night.

I do very few shows these days but it still costs me around £1500 in fuel and entry fees alone.

Or look at it another way various statistics say that an average dog costs £1000 a year to keep, so that is £5000 - £6000 a year.  A responsible breeder may have 1 - 2 litters  a year, or often less.  On average it costs me the price of 4 puppies to cover the easily identified costs (not counting extra heating, wear and tear etc).  My litters have over the years averaged just under 6 puppies.

Keeping more than one or two dogs tends to have increased costs, you may need to have a kennel/s, more secure fencing.  The kind of vehicle for example, wouldn't get my lot in a Micra, and the family car is therefore a 4 x 4 to get us to shows/camping etc, expensive to run and tax and insure.

Can't afford non doggy holidays as the cost of kenneling or home care for the dogs would be prohibitive.

I choose to make sacrifices in some areas of my life in order to have the dogs, so yes it does rankle somewhat to be compared to the 'puppy producers' who do make money out of dogs by doing it the wrong way.

MarkR with all the effort, time and tears that go into planning and raising a litter no way could I do it simply to rehome all the pups, that would put me on par with BYB's and Puppy Farmers who are only in it for the money. 

So I am a breeder who will only breed when I plan on keeping a pup back myself, thankfully my breed isn't one that is found filling up the rescue centres.

> By leaving puppy farmers and irresponsible breeders to take up the slack you are potentially doing your breed a disservice.

I'd imagine a lot of potential puppy owners would not fit the criteria as a suitable owner for having a pup from a responsible breeder, even if that breeder deliberatley bred litters just for the 'pet market'.

You are also lucky to have a very small breed :) 
You need to breed from a bitch before she is too old but the logistics of that mean you will have several generations in the house before you know it.  Not everyone can do this so you may choose to have a litter or even two from that bitch before you finally keep your next generation.

at brainless i understand that in your case having 6 dogs which is amazing wish i could have that many lol and you dont breed as often as some breeders do and i can only thank you for taking responsability for your girls and not overbreeding them. you seem like a good breeder and look after the intrests of the momma dogs something in my expierience dont see much of anymore which is a shame, i get the math and see you make very little if anything but it was just my opinion on this thread which seemed to spiral of what i was trying to say lol

> you may choose to have a litter or even two from that bitch before you finally keep your next generation.

Yep that is a situation I am in with one of my girls, and am hoping to keep a puppy finally from her third and last litter next year.  My choice for the sire has been based on what the puppies from the first two litters ahve been like and what I wanted to achieve.  Now ( just have to hope she has some bitches of quality for me to choose from).

> and you dont breed as often as some breeders do and i can only thank you for taking responsability for your girls and not overbreeding them. you seem like a good breeder and look after the intrests of the momma dogs something in my expierience dont see much of anymore which is a shame

and that is why good breeders seek to protect their puppies from exploitation by making them less attractive to the kind of person that breeds for money by putting endorsements and conditions on their registrations.

Short of neutering the puppies before homing (which is abhorrent to most of us as it interferes with a dogs natural maturation process), there is no actual way to prevent them being bred from, but at least with endorsements it makes them less of a target for unscrupulous would be cash in on them breeders,  but still leaves the options open for soemtone carign and responsibel that wants to do ti properly with the help of the breeder of the pup.

@brainless i hope she has a beautiful girl for you and good luck with the litter :)

> Now ( just have to hope she has some bitches of quality for me to choose from).

I do hope so :)  The gamble of going for the last litter is just that.  It didn't work for me, only one bitch and she was promised to stud owner.  I'm sure she would have let me keep her but I was not too sure that I wanted to.  I could have bought in from a daughter from a previous litter but for one reason and another I didn't and still don't quite know what I am planning yet :)

In answer to Marks point about breeding more litters (sorry I don't know how to copy) I would only breed a litter if I already had prospective owners for them. My breed is a large very active gundog, who need plenty of excercise and although very inteligent, they do require a big commitment in terms of training and stimulation, so would not fit in with a lot of prospective owners lifestyles.
Because I will never breed large numbers my hope is that I will always be able to take a dog back should the owners circumstances change, I may not be able to keep the dog forever, but I would make sure that it did not go into rescue and was rehomed to a suitable owner. I would always want to know where any pups I have bred a were.
Breeding dogs is a big responsibility, the puppies did not ask to be born, I made the conscious decision to mate my bitch, so I feel I am responsible for all the pups throughout their lives, and am always at the end of a phone line should the owner need any help advice or just for a quick update and chat.
I found the whole process of breeding quite stressfull, hours of pouring over pedigrees, doing research, cross checking against health results, talking to other breeders and then sometimes being back to square one as having thought I had found a suitable stud dog, the lines would not have worked, a male had been castrated, died etc. My first atempt failed despite doing everything possible in terms of ovulation testing, and I know others on here have also been disapointed when they have had a bitch scanned, only to be told she is not pregnant.
So it was back to the drawing board, and starting all the research all over again. The stress of the actual birthing process, the worry that something could go wrong, 3 weeks sleeping with the bitch and her puppies, I even arranged for my food shopping online, thank god for Tesco !! So I would not have to go out. The experience of having the puppies of watching them nurchering, socialising and training them was a wonderful experience. By the time they went to their new homes they were going out to pee and pooh, and coming in to their dinner to the gundog whistle.
I meet up with some of the pups at shows, and have met up for walks with the ones that did not go to show homes, I receive lovely cards, photos and emails as well as regular phone calls, from my extended family. For me giving back to the breed quality rather than quantity is vitaly important, if I were to have more litters I would not be able to give them all the same ongoing attention.
Also I enjoy showing, and after her litter, my bitch returned to the show ring and continued to win further CC's and having a mother and daughter out at shows has been a delight, if I had mated my bitch again her show career would have been cut short.
If there are not as many puppies bred then at least all that are will be more likely to find suitable homes, if prospective owners go on a breeders list, they can get to know them and their dogs, it will also give them time to find out more about their chosen breed and be sure that they are right for them. If there are less puppies available more people are likely to consider a rescue or returned dog.

I myself have an endorsed pup and rather than feeling uneasy at the fact he is 'not mine' or is 'restricted,' I feel happy in the knowledge that he comes from a good breeder who cares about the breed, and would be there to fully support me if in a few years if I decided to breed from him and would consider lifting his restrictions.

I myself have an endorsed pup and rather than feeling uneasy at the fact he is 'not mine' or is 'restricted,' I feel happy in the knowledge that he comes from a good breeder who cares about the breed, and would be there to fully support me if in a few years if I decided to breed from him and would consider lifting his restrictions.

The one and only dog I had from a pup ( all the rest were/are rescues picking up the mess from irresponsible breeding and ownership) and that GSD pup took a very long time to find, best breeder, best temperament, all checks etc and that pup too had restrictions that I couldn't breed from her/ had to return to breeder and not sell on etc. I was more than happy to go along with this as it added to the fact that this was a caring breeder wanting the best for her pups.

>People can still breed regardless

Oh dear, so if one of those pups goes on to have a health problem and is bred on from and passes this health problem onto its off spring that doesn't bother you? It would me.

I do all relevant health tests for my breed, I have only bred 5 litters in over 20 years in my breed, but I still endorse my pups. I am so glad I did as one litter had 2 pups with elbow dysplacia. By NOT lifting the endorsements I have peace of mind that I have not added to the gene pool. This litter is now 5 years old and the majority have been neutered. If I hadn't endorsed them there would always be the temptation of breeding from them and thus possibly producing more unhealthy pups. THAT is being a caring breeder, not someone who sells pups without endorsements and couldn't care less what happens after that. All my puppy owners understand why I endorse, they all understand that I will lift the endorsements IF all relevant health tests are done, and are of good quality. There is no point in testing a dog who subsequently has a hip score of, say 90, and saying, oh well at least you had it tested I will now lift the endorsement.

LIndylou if you read my posts my one litter of pups whose both parents were health tested too so i do all the relevant health tests on my breed just like you. They had low scores just like their parents. I was talking about the fact of people in general not me. I have only ever bred one litter in the last ten years.

and mastifflower i no what a kc --- its a generation paper so you can trace the generations of dogs like a family tree

Just to clear this up for anyone who is unsure. Kennel Club registration is a registration paper to confirm and give reasurance that the pup in question has been bred from dogs who's ansestory is known and can be veryfied. A PEDIGREE is a list of the pups parentage and ancestors.

For over 30 years I have been involved with working/showing and occasionally breeding my dogs. My dogs are my life they are loved, cared for and cried over when I have to let them pass to the bridge. I have been a member on CD for over 5 years now and in that time have seen many new members arrive, some to listen and learn from the many many years of expierience available here and some to get upset and dissapear when the answers they get do not fit in with what they are doing. I have learnt that it often pays to have a look at peoples previous posts before replying to a contentious post. It is amazing what can be found with a little hunting. I have seen trolls come and usually go very fast with a flea in thier ears ! :-) Some come and learn and go on to show/breed/work or whatever better with the knowledge they have gleaned for here. Some come on and ask a question and then shout and rant about being "Picked on" when the answers they get don't suit.
This forum is regularly picked up by search engines and many of us feel it better to have the facts right so novices looking for good advice can see  both sides of a tail!
Maybe some of the members who have been here longer than me are much quicker at spotting someone who does not ring quite true, after all some have been here a long time, they have seen posts on all sorts of subjects and reeled in horror at the way some people breed with little care or attention not only to a bitches welfare and that of her pups but to the promotion of healthy animals capably of reproducing as nature intended without the intervention of the surgons knife. Some of us have had emergency sections caused not by the bitches conformation but for other reasons and know what strain it puts on bitch and pups and owners.
We breed with care, we raise our pups with love and great attention to feeding, socializing and the correct placement of pups into new homes with people we believe to care as much as we do.
We place endorcements on our pups to do what we can to safeguard that pups future and we choose to lift those endorsements if and when our conditions are met ( For me it is Health testing within the breed guidlines and average scores, temp testing, conformation as judged by independant judges in the show ring {or working})I have a tight contract as do most breeders on this site and expect my new owners to sign it and abide by it. It is witnessed by a third party and given to my new owners before they are accepted as such for them to read and then decide if they are willing to accept my terms. If they do not like it they are free to walk away and I would never ever  let a puppy go without it. I have 5 people waiting for a pup from my next litter all of whom have had my pups before and all of whom know the contract will be the same...it has not put them off waiting over a year for a pup from me.
I do not make money from my girls, far from it as I consider it to be wise to show and get an unbiased view of if my girls are good specimines before breeding, I feed them good wholesome food, they are regularly wormed inoculated and taken to the vet if unwell or hurt. I arrange days/holidays around them and employ a trusted house sitter to watch over them. My cars are chosen with them in mind, I work the hours that suit them and spend weeks sleeping by thier side when with pups. The time effort cost and heartache that goes into my dogs and those of many of the posters on this site is huge. It is not something we do for fun, it is not something we do because someone said a litter would be "Good" for the bitch. It is not something we do to pay for the next holiday or decorate the lounge. It is something we do for the breeds we love, to promote and preserve the type of dogs we love, to enrich and enhance the gene pool, to ensure that good healthy long lived animals are available to people like yourself.
If we are prepared to do all that so that someone like yourself can find a pup safe in the knowledge that the breeder has gone the extra mile to make your puppy everything you hope for can you not give us a little credit for occasionally being short with someone who has no idea and breeds a litter just because they can !!
Aileen

Well said Merlot

Good post. :-)

merlot you say people find these forums from a search engine, yes they do need to be given GOOD advice but in my short time on these forums i have never met so many RUDE posters in all my life including YOU, i have had it up to here with all of you, just because you own a DOG doesnt automtaically make you an expert on that particular breed i can copy n paste of google as well you NO

people come on here for advice and help and all this site does is rip people's comments into shreds and take them out of context, yes there will always be bad breeders and good one's  and another thing a lot of breeders sleep with there dog when in pup just in case the worst happens so dont think your the worlds best breeder

if it was up to me i'd advise anyone wh ciomes here for advise top just phoone your vet as you wont get the rude and nasty remarks as you do on here !!

oh and by the way i no wat a kc paper is for the secoond time i just wasn't going to explain in full detail

and you want me t give credit ......... i'll give credit when it's due  and mark i no where u are coming from nice post

>if it was up to me i'd advise anyone wh ciomes here for advise top just phoone your vet as you wont get the rude and nasty remarks as you do on here !!

But not necessarily the correct information - unless they are themselves breeders then vets are highly unlikely ever to have witnessed a natural whelping in real life. They're fantastic when things go wrong though!

I'm glad you realise that a KC paper isn't the same as a pedigree - that wasn't clear from your post. :-)

Woodykay21, you haven't really read Merlot's post at all have you? :)

But not necessarily the correct information - unless they are themselves breeders then vets are highly unlikely ever to have witnessed a natural whelping in real life.

Too true JG - many have never even owned a dog so not only do they not understand a natural whelping they do not understand dogs in general because most they see will not be behaving as they normally do.

if it was up to me i'd advise anyone wh ciomes here for advise top just phoone your vet as you wont get the rude and nasty remarks as you do on here !!

You might do if you went to my vet !!

> You might do if you went to my vet !!

:-D

Aileen

Many have already congratulated you on your post however I am afraid I am not going to.

I could write an extremely lengthy carefully thought out post to explain why. However I am going to try and encapsulate it in a few blunt sentences (* I will give the reason why at the end of the thread).

I just want to pick up on your final sentence:

>If we are prepared to do all that so that someone like yourself can find a pup safe in the knowledge that the breeder has gone the extra mile to make your puppy everything you hope for can you not give us a little credit for occasionally being short with someone who has no idea and breeds a litter just because they can !!

In short no, new posters don't know enough about you to give you that leeway. And simply by making a post telling those same new posters how great you are also won't earn the respect you need. Respect needs to be earned over a period of time, you can't just walk into a room and expect it.

You obviously have gained the respect of people who have been on Champdogs a long time by the quality of your posts and with them I dare say you could get away with being short. However thinking it is ok to be short and overly judgemental with new posters is wrong and only serves to drive them away.

Although I am replying to Aileen's post it is a general reply to the community as a whole, any number of you could have written the post she did.

I think most reasonable people can handle a bit of constructive criticism from a few individuals. But what only the hardiest of souls can cope with is when the pack mentalilty kicks in and they feel they are being attacked from all sides. No one is saying don't tell it how it is, but is it really neccessary at times for 5 or more people to stick the boot in and essentially say the same thing.

Every new person who leaves never to return is an opportunity to educate lost and another potentially bad breeder who will lower the standard of your breeds and dogs in general. They don't leave and not breed, they just breed without further guidance.

If you care as much about dogs and your breeds as you all say you do perhaps you should consider moderating your behaviour and posting styles and try keep new members here for as long as possible.

(* The reason for the blunt posting style)

"Over the past 12 years I have sweated blood creating this forum, spent money which I could ill afford to provide a secure and stable hosting platform, spent hours trying to nurture an environment where views can be freely exchanged . Been openly criticised by many on here. Worked hard to ensure a continual supply of new visitors, those Google rankings don't happen by accident you know. Had many sleepless nights, missed holidays to perform maintenance and software upgrades in order to keep the site up and running.

If I am prepared to do all that so that someone like yourself has a platform to educate and be educated can you not give me a little credit for occasionally being blunt when I can see you driving yet another new poster away from Champdogs just because you can !!"

BTW you can take my "sweated blood" speech with a healthy pinch of salt.

However there is a very serious point to my post. You are all very good at giving well intentioned advice, but can you take it as well ?

And why am I getting a sense of deja vu ?