sorry sj I had to smile at your paragraph "They can be very active and are notorious for chewing"
you have a certain young lady in mind lol
Just to say that all the rotts I have met do seem lovely dogs and seem to cover all the op's points. I would however havae abitch and I believe she said she wanted amale or did I imagine that bit

> you have a certain young lady in mind lol

YES!!!! She got hold of another shoe of mine.. If only wearing odd shoes was seen as ok i'd be fine... lol...

Plus I don't want a goldie or a lab, just not my thing.

I couldn't agree more! Not my cup of tea either. My other half had labs as a child. He was told in no uncertain terms that we'd never be getting one but each to their own!

Let's start a new fashion sj between us we have pair although not sure if that's shoes or dogs !

Id say a dogue of course to go with your family but you said not a slobbery dog so that's out. Don't bullmastiffs slobber too. The thing is I had a unreactive male until he got attacked, he is now not trustworthy with other large males, and i agree owning a large breed really takes the fun out of dog ownership sometimes. Im now glad I live in the country because we do purposefully avoid kids (for the fact of parents reaction, there great with kids )dogs and Sunday dog owners. It's a shame but i could feel myself going grey with the stress of worrying if another dog offlead would bound over to us. Get a big black lab safest option.

on the Gundog theme, how about the chesapeak (sp?) Bay retriever? not met them personally but they have the black'n'tan effect and I believe have a deep bark? they do have a longish coat though. Also I think the bigger pointers are quite imposing looking dogs when alert on the end of a lead and they can definitely be loud yet have the gundog trainability and temperament.
also similar build (muscular looking, deep chest and nice short coat) what about Boxers? I don't know much about their characters with other dogs but the ones I have met have all been completely soppy with people.

Since the age of 18 months I have grown up with GSD's and from the age of 13 Rottie's were introduced into the mix...now along with a Leonberger, Staffie and Akita!

One thing I would say is whichever breed you choose if you do go for a guarding breed always be aware that when you have your childrens friends to play it is advisable to give your dog a safe out of the way space so they don't feel the need to 'look after' your children if they are shouting, screaming even in play.  The GSD's were brilliant to grow up with, they herded us up out on walks and both the bitches and dogs we have owned have had fantastic temperaments with all other dogs.  At most if anything has had a go at the boys they will put their foot on the other dog to stop them getting closer.  We did research the lines where our GSD's came from very closely and we have always owned the long haired GSD's and have nothing but praise for their gentle, laid back nature.

We have and do own both bitches and dog Rottweilers, I find these to be more 'guardy' than the GSD's and the males even more so.  Every bitch we've had has had fantastic temperaments with other dogs and they just want to play with every other dog when out and about.  The current male I have is great with bitches but I wouldn't let him play off lead with another dog.  However...he had a fantastic temperament but missed out on socialising between the age of 13 months and 3 years because of surgery on his cruciates...I believe this has a major factor in knowing how to play 'properly'. 

All of our dogs have been bought up with cats and none of the breeds we have and do own have any had a problems with the cats.  Both the GSD's and Rottie's love to learn and daily training is seen as fun by them but also essential whilst growing up and throughout adulthood.  Living in a rural area I would suggest you make daily trips to more populated places and essentially training classes so your pup is socialised throughly with people and dogs.

My Rottie's get play in the garden and training in the daytime and they enjoy a good hours free running in the fields each day.  If you don't give them enough they will get bored.

How about a beauceron? Not too much guard, good working dogs and are wary but not aggressive towards strangers. Aloof is more the word. I fell in love with them at crufts but there again I love my working breeds just thought the bulkier frame and markings of these dogs lovely. Nice heavier frame would lookthe part but not get you into trouble.....And herd the kids back into line!!

Any ofthe guarding breeds I would be temptedtostay away from at the moment. I have tosay the best guard dogs round here are westies!! never seem to let a crisp packet gopast without telling the entire neighbourhood!!

Oh another breed are Airedales!! I walk oneof these every week and he's fab. Guards the house, gives voice, is great with other dogs and woulddoanything for a biscuit. Plus he sheds very littleand when he's just been groomed he feels like velvet. Everyone loves him for his teddy bear look so none of the phobia issues to deal with but you'd get your guard bit.

Thanks Staff, great to hear from someone with experience of two of the breeds I'm looking into, helpful insight that may encourage me to research the GSD more - because goodness knows there are plenty of breeders out there!

Interesting to hear about the Beauceron, I've heard little first hand info about them but are they really less guardy than the other breeds? I would definitely love to hear more about them in that case. Any idea of energy levels?  The only person I spoke to about them at DD had a puppy that exercisied on her own private land so she couldnt really give any experience of minimum exercise requirements either, her dog just had the run of acerage all day.

I had not really considered the Airedale as I had the impression somehow they were quite dog agressive but if this is a misconception then I would definitely consider them too, thanks.

Oh yes forgot to say I would like to hear from anyone with Boxer experience as well, especially in regard to males with other dogs as I've only met females, Thanks

>on the Gundog theme, how about the chesapeak (sp?) Bay retriever? not met them personally but they have the black'n'tan effect

?? Chesapeakes? Black & tan? No, that's not a chessie colourway! They're a solid colour of a dingy shade of brown, more poetically described as Sedge, Ash, Deadgrass, Brown, Dark Brown or Light Brown.

Yes Chessies have a coat colour which I liken to a sun bleached chocolate lab colour.

Ok, I've googled and I was completely confused! I was thinking of the Gordon Setters, I don't think I've ever seen a CBR , or if I have I thought it was a cross breed labrador! sorry
so.op, how about setters?!

The trouble is with Gordon's they look do soppy and are more likely to lick you to death which is a good thing in my book but not sure it would be the OP choice :-)

Oh yes forgot to say I would like to hear from anyone with Boxer experience as well, especially in regard to males with other dogs as I've only met females, Thanks

Our 3 Boxers ( 2 males and 1 female) were rescues and the boys had a few issues when they first arrived, however with training and masses of socialising they overcame the problems. They are now great with other dogs and we can take them anywhere. BUT Boxers are puppies for life and never really grow up, adorable clowns forever. We had one that chewed it's way through a 3 piece suite, killed every pot plant and climbed over a settee, walked across the sideboard and then over the piano, just to reach the fruit bowl to take a bite out of each apple ( and then left the half eaten apples in the bowl ) and walked back. As I said, clowns for life - be prepared !!! They are fantastic with children, and I'm ashamed to say ( slapped wrist ) they do like to sleep on our beds, heads on pillows just like humans.

>We had one that chewed it's way through a 3 piece suite, killed every pot plant and climbed over a settee, walked across the sideboard and then over the piano, just to reach the fruit bowl to take a bite out of each apple ( and then left the half eaten apples in the bowl ) and walked back. As I said, clowns for life - be prepared !!!

Oh my goodness, how hillarious! In some one elses house anyway ;) Yeah I love boxers and so do the kids but I don't think hubbie can put up with a puppy for life, he prefers more steady, sensible dogs which is a shame because in lot of ways I think Boxers have what we are looking for- tough guy looks, softie underneath it all.

I do think setters are beautiful dogs (first dog I ever wanted as a child was an English setter) but now I think they are just not quite what we are looking for.

Somebody mentioned the Black Russian Terrier earlier and I forgot to ask if they can be clipped? Are they generally ok meeting strange dogs? Was talking with someone last night and they suggested a clipped Bouvier des Flandres - anybody here know much about them as well?

Loving all the suggestions, thanks again for the help.

> Are they generally ok meeting strange dogs?

I'm not sure that you are going to find a guarding breed that does not have some issues in this area, it just goes with the territory.  You are going to have to put considerable work into socialisation whatever you choose.

>I'm not sure that you are going to find a guarding breed that does not have some issues in this area, it just goes with the territory.  You are going to have to put considerable work into socialisation whatever you choose.

Yes I think generally speaking you are right about this and I am prepared to do the work with socialisation, but what I'm looking to find out is if there are some guarding breeds that are less reactive than others.

I realise that all guardian breeds are the types that will not submit if challenged and I will need to be attentive at all times when out walking, but some dogs are just more pushy/agressive than others. For example the person I was speaking to yesterday about Bouviers says yes a male will not back down if he is challenged by another dominant male but 99% of the time they prefer to ignore other dogs and in his experience prefer to walk away from confrontation. I also remember speaking to an Estrela Mountain dog breeder at Crufts some years back who said her dogs, being historically bred to stay with the flock, have very graduated ways of dealing with confrontation i.e. they will not pursue a fight and her dog only ever tried to roll other agressive dogs/lie ontop of them to make them submitt. Also flock guardians protectiveness comes from genuine protective drives, not agression or prey drives. If they weren't so hairy and independantly minded I would probably opt for an Estrela to be honest (as I dont think the same can be said about Pyreneans or Anatolians dog agression?).

If my understanding of dog behaviour is accurate (and please help me out if I am wrong) some dogs are more teritorially agressive than others and seem to actively want to challenge whatever comes into their vicinity, whereas others are more defensively minded and will only fight if pushed? Am I oversimplifying this? Maybe?

Anyway I think what I'm trying to find out is which, if any, of the more obediant protective breeds has the least dog to dog agression and if that can even be determined by breed?

> If my understanding of dog behaviour is accurate (and please help me out if I am wrong) some dogs are more teritorially agressive than others and seem to actively want to challenge whatever comes into their vicinity

I think  you will find yourself in that territory with any of them if you don't do lots of socialisation when they are young.   This is going to be tricky if you also want a dog that wants nothing to do with other people and dogs.  I think  you are going to have a great deal of difficulty squaring these two requirements.

You are going to have to put considerable work into socialisation whatever you choose.

I absolutely agree, dogs can vary in temperament from dog to dog within the very same breed, so training and socialising are important in whichever breed you choose. No dog will be 'off the shelf' perfect. So maybe you should carefully choose the dog you really would love to own, making sure the breeder is aware of the temperament you are hoping for, listen to their advice as they know their own pups and the one that is likely to suit you the most, and then start working with the dog when you bring it home.

Have you looked at Airedale terriers? They are beautiful dogs, highly intelligent and great with kids.

My friend has had Bouviers for as long as I have known her (25 years approx).

First two weren't good with dogs or people, her third one was lovely and her fourth one was OK with people, but not good with dogs. The big thing they all had in common was terrible health problems.

Someone in our village has two bitches and neither are good with dogs or people.

From my experience they are not a breed I would recommend, firstly down to health problems, but secondly I haven't been impressed with the temperament of most of the Bouvs I have met.

From what you have said you are responsible and quite prepared to put work into the socialisation of your pup so I don't think I would look further than a GSD. IMHO there is not a better family dog, providing the breeding is sound and the owner is prepared to socialise, socialise and socialise. The only thing I would add is that whereas socialisation can be backed off as the dog reaches adulthood, with a GSD it is better to continue this socialisation for a much longer period, and even throughout it's life albeit at a lesser level.

> From my experience they are not a breed I would recommend, firstly down to health problems, but secondly I haven't been impressed with the temperament of most of the Bouvs I have met.
>
>

Now I have had the complete opposite experience of the breed.  I have a breeder local to me whose dogs are absolutely lovely and have known one belonging to a Friend from different lines that was a delight, and she had her as an older pup as she was too small for the standard to do well in the ring.

I have heard that they get very strongly attached to their owners and do not do well with changing homes as adults.

Hi, i have owned and bred 3 of the breeds your thinking about, all brilliant with kids but the bullmastiffs will only be accepting of dogs within there own house boys should not be kept together as sometimes fight ,they are lovely to own but cannot be off lead with strange dogs, my dobe was brilliant with us children and other dogs,she was well socialised and a joy to have ,we got her when my youngest was 3 and when she died at10 my daughter said she lost her sister,( i felt id lost my child ) and now i have a gsd only 1 we lost our boy gsd last year, these dogs are very trainable v g with kids,cats and other animals but you have to train them like any other dog they are very loyal and will protect when necessary,we recently got a giant breed and she loves him weve also got a yorkie and a cat,all get along fine .hope this helps

I'm just curious why you are so set on a male - does your bitch at home not get on with other bitches? Its just that the risk of dog on dog aggression at worst or intolerance of strange dogs, would be minimised if you went for a bitch of the guarding breeds that you prefer. Plus, in my experience, bitches are better guards!
I would be a little concerned about getting a Ridgeback or Dobie or GSD if you can only offer up to an hour a day exercise. In my experience a young and fit dog of those breeds requires twice that amount. Maybe you can get away with less as another poster suggested but really it is better to plan to keep a dog in peak condition rather than maintenance, especially as you have the choice of which breed to go for. Just my opinion of course before lots of people tell me they have those breeds and exercise them significantly less lol.

I have just got my first GSD puppy, and I can honestly say socialising him has been a dream. He did come from a house with a number of other dogs so did see them all coming and going from an early age, however as a tiny pup he just loved other dogs and would not show any signs of fear when meeting even the biggest dog. In that respect he has been bomb-proof so far. In fact, he loves dogs so much his re-call has gone to pot as I concentrated so much on his socialisation!

He is a happy little(or not so little!) pup and although he is starting to bark at strange noises outside the house, still lollops up to every dog to greet them so far. Hopefully it will continue this way but I am fully prepared for ongoing socialisation that this breed needs. He is at the park every day meeting 'nice' dogs as we are very lucky in that respect around here.

Exercise-wise, he is limited in that respect at the moment as he only gets about 5 mins exercise per month of life, so half-hour walks at the minute. (If I can help it! Some days I do extra training out on the field with him so it's more like a 40/50 minute play/training session.)

He has a very active mind and providing I have done some training with him he will happily not go for a walk if the weather is bad. In my experience of families GSDs they are very active outside of the house, but perfectly happy being a couch-potato when they get in!

hi i have over the years had a gsd he was a gem very gentle great with the kids very frendly with people and other dogs but shed lots of hair and his wet muddy tail left big muddy marks up the wall after walks as he waged his tail ll the time,

i have a 13 yr old rottie bitch still here she has been the most loyal gentle giant i have ever had i did soscialize her alot and went training till she was 3 yr she untill resently has allways come with me to pick up kids from school and has changed hundreds of peopls veiws on the rotts she is fab with other dogs big or small loves kids babys and people but remember they do talk alot and people take it the wrong way and think she is warning them when realy she is just asking for a fuss will bark at everyone that comes into the house untill they do fuss her which stangers take as a warning and stay away you only tell the people you want to know she is just asking for a fuss. she is very clever easy tainable and loyal.   

the bullmastiff i also have they are great with kids love everyone but not so easy to train they will only work if there is a good enough reward in it for them they do look the part and some people do cross the street but most teanagrs want to meet them men love them and they dont bark unless there is a very good reason and to be honest if anyone broke into my house i think they would just lick them to death unless they ran, when any adult runs they will chase and take them down wont bit or attack just take down then lick them to death.

hope this helps

Thanks again for the continued help/advice.

The general feeling I'm getting from here and other places as well is that with Rotti and Bullmastiff males I would just have to accept strong tendancies to dominate other dogs but otherwise great with the family whereas a GSD might be less reactive with other dogs but maybe needs more that an hour a day exercise? Any other opinions on the exercise requirements of a GSD? Also is there any difference between long haired GSD and short haired as far as temperement goes?

Would like to hear if anyone else has opinions/experience with Bouviers or Airedales? The low shedding aspect would be a bonus, but not essential.

And yes I realise that my decision to choose a male makes the whole thing harder but my bitch at home has never lived with another bitch, only another dog, and with him she was always a bit pushy. Not in a nasty way, its just she expects to be first to get attention and will push other dogs out of the way to sit next to me, have they toys, greet guests etc. I just don't want to go to all this effort and have her not accept another bitch, especially as we are talking about breeds that are not particularly submissive. I'd rather have any potential problems only outside the house than live all the time with two fighting bitches - did that a long time ago with two terrier bitches and it was a nightmare!

Just wondering if a standard poodle maybe worth looking into ?

They have a presence due to their size and also are supposed to be ok with children and other dogs.

The only downside would be the need to get them clipped but if you get a all over clip I should imagine it would only be once or twice a year but you wouldnt get the shedding.

I

The standard poodles I've known have been very nice but the coat requires maintenance when it gets longer -think its like trying to groom cotton wool if left. I suppose there are pet owners of RBT's who have their dogs clipped? They look quite imposing but do they, and Airedales revert to their terrier instinct and can their beards get a bit whiffy?

I've owned a Rottie (a rescue) & very well behaved with dogs & people, he was very popular at dog class due to his easy going nature (& not a barker) but unfortunately the public perception of them isn't always good, but this can be a deterrent in itself if needed.

I also own GSD's, dogs & bitches, who seem to be a more vocal breed (well mine are anyway). All of them are much more focused on their owner (& ball) than other people or dogs & the brother/sister pair we kept were extensively socialised as pups so bombproof. To me, that is very important as a lot of this breed can be nervy. My preference is for the longcoats, our shortcoat dog is a much more intense character, he also sheds much more!
Obviously the size and look of the dogs is again a deterrent if you don't know the actual dog.

For just making a noise the 2 Jack Russell's in the vets waiting room recently win hands down - I had to go outside!

I think someone else mentioned earlier the possibility of a German Pointer - Shorthaired or Wirehaired.

The male German Wirehaired Pointer is an imposing dog which has presence, which might suit you, and plenty of casual observers won't recognise the breed which can be a real advantage.  One of the versatile Hunt Point Retrieve (HPR) breeds, the GWP is a loyal and intelligent dog with few issues.  Gundogs are pretty biddable and relatively easy to train, make great family dogs, and are quite a good size for most normal homes.

I prefer the wire-haired version and think that whiskers give a dog character - it's a coat ideally suited to country living and it's very easy to look after.  I have two Hungarian Wirehaired Vizsla!  I've only ever met nice GWP's, we meet quite a few at shows BUT a stranger would be wary of approaching one if it were barking, and some of the boys have quite 'strong' looking heads which again might suit you

Have a look at the Bareve website for more pictures and more information...

I've only owned one boxer (know a few though) and would definitely have another. Often people think he's tough-he's certainly not-and sometimes cross the road to avoid us. I often do the short lead thing too.
He loves everyone and adores dogs. He never chewed anything except nibbling his bed, is chilled out in the house but easy enough to get giddy if you want a good ole play with him.
He's pretty obedient and I was shocked how quickly he picked things up!!  He doesnt drool either, none of the ones I know do.
I appreciate this is only one dog but I socialised him from day one and took him training. He is quiet in the house and doesn't bark unless there's a reason for it, much more preferable for me than a dog who likes nothing more than the sound of their own voice!!

Just a quick thought- how about a weinerama? They certainly have a good presence for looking strong, they do shed a little in my experience but their temperament is so laid back and gentle (almost dopey!)

My cross breed bitch is half weimeraner and dopey yes (as in crashes into things, steps on feet, thinks she is a lap dog and litteraly tries to get all 45Kg of her onto your lap) but laid back no way! It could be the fathers (unknown) side but when she was younger she was sooo demanding of exercise it was untrue - generally I have been informed that Weimeraners have one of the harder temperments out of the gundog group and need tones of exercise so I think I might look into other breeds first.

Thanks for the suggestions, I think I will concentrate my research on the GSD at the moment, as well as looking into some of the less guardy suggestions, might even pursuade hubbie to reconsider the Boxer. Thanks all.

Hi RosiesMum
I still think that a WELL BRED Ridgie would suit you down to the ground. Yes, there are people producing poor examples with poor temperaments but you can get that with every breed. If you do your research and visit breeders you would find a suitable one :)

I currently have a GSD bitch and have owned males too. I think I am in the minority, but my males have been VERY loving with other dogs (either sex) and people, but I was left with no doubt that he would protect me if needed.

On the whole, GSD's are extremely loyal, they want to be with you all the time (they can cope fine without you, but I think its something that has to be taught rather than comes naturally). Mine have never really been bothered about other dogs when out, though would play if invited to by another dog. The only thing to watch out for there is that they do tend to play very roughly which alot of other dogs dont like.

They are naturally a guarding breed and generally wont let anyone onto your property unless invited. I have a young son and my girl is absolutely wonderful with him, the one thing I did ensure is that she wasnt allowed to become over guardy with my son when out- I found she started to become a little more reactive and wary of people when my son was around, so i nipped it in the bud and got on top of it.

She welcomes invited guests into the house with a high pitched squeel and waggy tail- whether they be children or adults (the only thing I have to do is ask men to take hats off if they are wearing one!).

I have always said I will never be without a GSD in my life.

What about a Hungarian Wirehaired Vizsla?  Not quite as large as a Rottie or Ridgie - but they are extremely loving and loyal family dogs, have a good presence and bark.  The Wirehaired ones tend to be a bit more laid back than the smooth ones - which can be really high energy (although not usually as high as a boxer).  As they are gundogs they are very trainable - the only real caveat is that they need lots of brainwork and human company. 

Yes I think I will try to meet some Ridgebacks as well and talk to their owners as they are a very handsome looking dog, short coated as well. Don't know yet if I will find short coated GSD's that have temperment I'm looking for, plus there is the exercise aspect, so yes Ridgebacks of the right type are still to be considered.  And I thought coming to the forum would help me narrow down my options! So many helpful suggestions, in a way I feel I'm sort of back to the begining again but its all good fun and will definitely be worth it in the end.

Its nice to get some perspective on the differences in the gundog group, I tend to assume they are all work all day types happiest in the field but clearly that may not be the case. Always great to hear from the people who actually live with the breed.

> I tend to assume they are all work all day types happiest in the field but clearly that may not be the case

My two Hungarian Wirehaired Vizsla's are currently pointing their paws at the ceiling 'willy to the wind'!  Actually the boys are generally more laidback than the girls and mine do sleep a lot.

However your one hour exercise maximum might not be enough for this breed.  I only walk mine once a day but it's a big walk, never less than 1 full hour (usually twice that) and nearly all off lead, in open countryside with fields, hedges, stiles and water.  I also have to spend another 15 minutes after every winter walk, washing the mud off them!  Maybe it's just mine, or my location, but they love to gallop and splash til completely filthy.   I'm also home all day so whilst it's only one proper walk, they get play time and regular airings in the garden too.

Do you work?

> Maybe it's just mine, or my location, but they love to gallop and splash til completely filthy.

I think that is true of many, many breeds of dog - my sister's longcoat GSD was the same! As is my BC/BSD cross.... and now even the rescue Malinois is beginning to see the Joy of Mud (she's already addicted to rolling in poo, so I guess mud is the scent-edited version).

Unless you live in a completely urban area and stick to road walks and parks (and even they can get muddy, especially if used for sports) then mud is going to be an occupational hazard - it certainly was when I lived in a city, so I stuck to beach walks in winter which were wilder, wetter but a lot cleaner.

Now living rural/semi-rural, mud is just a way of life and you cannot even avoid it being tracked in from the garden in weather like today's. I understand there are some breeds that hate the wet and won't sully their legs & feet with mud, but they may not be the breeds the OP's looking for - after all, any but the small companion breeds were bred & selected originally to work in all weathers and have coats and constitutions to match.

I can vouch for setters! I have an Irish Setter, she is full of energy (but not scatty), very faithful and loyal. Mine is now 19 months old and is very well behaved around the house. She is not really bothered about other dogs when out on a walk (and she loves countryside) she is always too busy doing her own thing, but she will play with other dogs around the house and on a walk if the other dogs are walking with us. Her favourite game is chase because she knows she can out wit or out run most dogs!

If I am play fighting with my partner she will try and get in the middle if she thinks I am getting hurt!

I am not sure if this is any help as I couldn't seem to read the first page of posts!

Anyway Irish Setter and Flat Coated Retriever owner - Jo

I have a rufty tuyfty working breed, but as a breed they generally (with a few exceptions) hate getting dirty and wet, LOL

My Myka conceived in snowy Finland in October at -10'C, whose sire is a  hunting champion absolutely hates rain and wet.