We're having real problems over night with our 9 month Clumber at the moment.

He sleeps in his crate in the kitchen, crate door shut. Generally, he's been been sleeping through till we get up for work. Now and again he's woken up and started whining. This can escalate into loud barking. As we have an adjoining wall with neighbours, ignoring it isn't really an option, so if he starts we go down, sit in a chair out of his sight, and don't interact at all. He then settles back to sleep quickly, but as I say, he usually sleeps through.

The last 3 nights have been very different. He's woken up at about 1 a.m, sounding very distressed. He's panting and very restless in the crate, and has remained like this for hours at a time. I don't think there's anything outside disturbing him. He's eventually settled again, but then woken up again at about 5, with a similar panicky presentation.

He's fine by day, is used to being left alone at times, and happily takes himself into the crate for a nap from time to time. The only thing I can think, is we've had a couple of weekends away in the last month, staying with friends/family, and we've had him sleep on the floor in the bedroom with us while away. However, he's been fine when we've got home and settled back into the crate. For example, this has only started happening 5 days after coming back. It feels like we've inadvertantly reinforced an anxiety, but we're at a bit of a loss as to what to do now?

All advice gratefully recieved! 

Noises outside your kitchen- foxes etc.. might be disturbing him? Foxes can get very noisy at this time of year. Does he need to be shut in his crate- being confined if he has also been disturbed may make him more anxious.

I'd try using a DAP diffuser. Make sure his crate is not near windows etc.. where foxes might be able to get up onto the sill and spook him. You could also try leaving a radio on softly at night until this phase passes.

Do you know, my first thought was pain.  Maybe crampy or teething at this age?  This is about the right time for molars and my dog is really bothered at the min with his. (not that it wakes him but that would take all out war for my dog!!).  Or maybe just getting stiff/crampy in the cage?  My old girl used her cage a lot and although it was a too big for her cage, she always slpt in the curled up position.  Now, she sleeps upstairs(not very well atm) on a quilt and sometimes she sleeps so soundly we find her and the quilt all over the room!!haha.  Just goes to show how restricted her movement had been in the cage although I never realised.  Just another couple of ideas for you.

> He's panting and very restless in the crate, and has remained like this for hours at a time.

Hours at a time means he is extremely distressed.

A vet check perhaps??

Jean, I agree and was about to suggest the same. Get a vet check to rule out any medical reason. If nothing medical it does not rule out the possibility that the dog is very distressed- it does sound that way. I would certainly consider leaving his crate door open at night- if he is in any pain or discomfort, or just plain scared of something, being confined may not be helping. I'd have a good think as to whether anything at all could have scared him and then how comfortable he is in the crate- is there enough bedding, is there enough room for him to stretch right out? Could he even be needing to get a drink?

would it be worth trying shutting the kitchen door and allowing him free access to his crate and water. he may want tobe out of the crate

Thanks for the replies all. I got a DAP diffuser today, and we'll try leaving the crate door open tonight. It can't be about water as we've always left a bit of water in a bowl in there with him.
I'm not convinced there's a physical problem, as this is literally the only time it happens. We have had foxes in the garden, so I think he got spooked on the first night, and we've reinforced it. If he's even half as shattered as us, I'm hoping he'll sleep better tonight!

I would also urge you to just get him checked out by a vet because panting can also be a sign of a dog in great pain- apologies if you have already done this.

I think foxes can really spook a young dog, they can make a real racket fighting and mating and clambering over fences and onto windowsills, etc.. He might have felt trapped and unable to investigate or get backup from the boss. Make sure his crate is well away from windows and closer to the door into the body of the house. Others may disagree, but if he whines I'd just go down and do as you did before, ignore him but just let him adapt to the new noises and learn that they cannot harm him. It may take a few nights for him to settle, but I'd rather do that than make him tough it out and work himself into a complete panic, because then the memory of being in a panic can give him a fear of fear- if you see, and he could become phobic about being alone.

I've had situations like this with a young dog before and I just appear and make a cup of tea or something and ignore until he settles. It's better to go on first peep than wait until he is in a lather when he might require much greater levels of reassurance to settle again. As I said, others may disagree, in part you just have to play it by ear, but you don't want him to develop a fear of being stuck in the kitchen. He's at that age when a second fear period can come along and stuff they would not have noticed or reacted to as pups they suddenly become aware of, so he needs time to adapt and learn it is okay and that the boss is close by, so he doesn't have to worry.

Just thought too, have there been any late season fireworks or night shooting/lamping?

Please do make sure it is not a medical issue.

Should have said, he saw a nurse today when I got the diffuser from the vet - they didn't think it was physical, but I'll get him properly checked if this persists beyond another couple of days. Freelancer, what you said about the second fear stage makes a lot of sense, and yes, appearing before he gets into a state is good advice.

No fireworks etc that We've been aware of.

This is something I have to contend with - Meg hates the noise of thunder and wind.   Last year we were out and there was a terrific thunderstorm with pounding rain.  Meg was by herself and had tried to get through to the front door - to go after us and had knocked a couple of photos down smashing the glass.  Now all she has to do is to hear heavy rain and she is distressed again.  We can't let her upstairs because of grandchildren staying and the fear of falling over her at night (my husband would forget she was there) so if I hear her getting distressed I just go down as if I had meant to come down anyway.  Make myself a cup of tea and turn the computer on and just act normal but treat her any differently then I normally would - pretend nothing is wrong.  Or catch up with tv on I-player until I see her relax.  Once I let her come upstairs and she made a big fuss for weeks to join us.  I can tell the difference now between can I come and join you and I am very frightened - help.
 
Sometimes I might not even find out what has frightened her till morning.  It could be the lid of the dustbin flying off and banging against the fence.  As simple as that - an unexplained noise that alarms her that we may not even notice.

I fear that being in the crate may get associated with the fear now rather than the crate being the safe place at night. We had that with our old house.  The utility room was the place of fear for Meg - she would not stay in there alone.  I went to a behaviourist who palmed me off with her trainee.  Her solution was 'why don't you just let her into the house then'! But that was the only way we could stop Meg throwing herself at the door and tearing it down.   It is a difficult one.  Someone will probabally suggest you taking the crate to your bedroom.  But if that is not going to work as a long term solution for yourself - because once started it will be even harder to go back again, then you will have to keep getting up.  It may be that leaving the crate door open at night may work.  However my dog paws the door and I found the other night she had actually got her teeth to it because I obviously hadn't heard her soon enough.  Good luck it is a diffucult one.

ceejay,

I think noise fears can become a problem and roll over into a phobia that is all mixed up with separation anxiety. If you think you are heading that way then you could look at working with a good behaviourist on a programme of desensitisation, but this can take time and would need quite a bit of work and forethought. In essence you'd have to try to record all the various noises you think could happen (clattery noises, foxes, cats, wind, rain etc..) and start playing those noises at incredibly low levels in the area where the crate is, while playing games, feeding, training- anything that is a distractor and start to build up positive associations between the noises and fun stuff. Slowly, slowly over weeks you turn the noise up until its loud and your dog is not noticing it. Then you do the same when its dark and build up again. It is a lot of work but it might help. it is not a risk free strategy though and should always be done with a properly qualified behaviourist.

I guess the key is to try to stop it ever getting to the full blown panic stage - like humans with panic attacks the experience of feeling very scared can make the dog wary of having to experience that again and they start to avoid anything they associate with being in that very scared state and when it gets to a phobia stage they are actively monitoring for similar noises or whatever the trigger stimulus for the initial fright was.

Sorry rambling a bit- hope this makes some sense.

Much improved last night! He did wake up, but it was the usual 'I'm awake, lets have you' type of whine, and he settled straight back to sleep. It can't have been the DAP working already, so it looks like leaving the crate door open has helped. Fingers crossed for the next few nights!

We had full blown panic this morning.  A great rumble of thunder!  Just as well it was 6.30 - time to get up anyway.  I don't think any desensitisation programme will work.  Meg will sit in front of the tv speaker and have all sorts of noises come at her - she only looks up occasionally - she knows the difference between noises that come from some electronic gadget and those that are real.   Glad the OP has had a better night - I hope it doesn't develop into anything more.   We have to go to a funeral this morning and I hope that we get no more of those heavy hail storms.  Leaving her in the house is difficult when she has these panics - there is no where she feels safe and she wants to find us - as you say - it becomes seperation anxiety.  I expect if I had another dog she would teach that one the same fears?

aj,

Good, let's hope it continues. DAP can work very quickly. You can also try a few drops of rescue remedy in his water if you want a quick calmer- don't ask me how it works, it just does with some dogs.

If he does whine again in the next few nights, without quickly settling, I'd strongly advise you just to casually pop down- as Megan says, as though you'd intended to. Completely ignore him, no eye contact etc.. This should reassure him without letting him think he can manipulate you. Once he is clear that the noises (if that is what it is) are not a threat and that you are on hand to protect the den, he may be okay. I do hope so. Again, on 'whiney occasions' sometimes just popping down, making a cuppa, putting the radio on very low and leaving again can all work. I know it is tiresome for us and I hate having my sleep broken, but if it means putting a stop to a full-blown phobia it is so worth it.

Ceejay,

yes, I think you are right, she may well teach the other dog the same fears.

How old is Megan?

Has Megan got a good den? I mean a crate with loads of sound muffling blankets over it? Somewhere she can go and hide if she feels panicked on her own.

It is so horrible for the dog when they get really panicked and upsetting for us. The problem with storms is that we cannot predict and prepare for the loud noises. You could try rescue remedy and DAP too. It is an incredible faff but for a dog like her you'd probably have to do a desensitisation program by rigging up a cd player outside, so the noise appears to be coming from outside. A program like this would sometimes be done in conjunction with drugs to help the dog learn that the various noises are not signs of danger. The problem is that panic stops the dogs from learning. But, anything like this should always be done with a properly qualified professional.

I have no personal experience of these but several friends use thunder shirts and they seem to have good results. I think it works on the swaddling type process. It is very difficult getting to the bottom of their anxieties. I thought one of mine would be freaked by the wild weather last night but no, not a peep.
Good Luck.

> Has Megan got a good den

No she hasn't got a den - crate - this was why I was interested in the OP's post where the dog is already in a crate.  I was going to get a crate and teach Susan Garrett's crate games after buying the video.  I haven't found the right crate yet and was rather worried that inspite of forking out all the money she won't use it.  I have a large crate that I bought when she was a puppy - it was for a bc size dog - but it is too large.  In fact that was one job I was going to do - get it out and measure it to compare online sizes.  I need something with the floor space of her present basket - not something she can walk around in.  I think I am correct in that am I?

Oh and she is 6.  This noise thing has been going on since a large firework went off about 9 pm one evening in the middle of summer when she was about a year old.  We all jumped and there was a general hoo-haa and upset voices because my daughter had just got my grandaughter to sleep and they were just on their way out of the door.  That was enough to get Meg into a panic.  This was compounded by me being held up on the way home one bonfire night - my husband forgot what day it was and had gone out.  She was really in a state that night.  I was home by quarter to six - too late.

Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread. I have discussed this before.  We muddle along I am afraid.

> I need something with the floor space of her present basket - not something she can walk around in.  I think I am correct in that am I?
>
>

Could you not use the crate you have but put her basket inside it?

No it just takes up too much room.

Because she is an adult dog I would not worry about the size of the crate for now. I'd just make sure it has lots of blankets over it so it is nice and warm and dark and sound is dampened. Put her basket in and make it as snuggly as possible. Keep the crate as close to the heart of the house as possible and away from windows, if you can. Don't lock her in, the idea is its just a safe place she can go if she feels threatened. You could also try a thunder shirt and DAP, especially with all these high winds. Leaving the radio on low may help a bit too, just to stop her focussing on certain noises.

You describe perfectly the way these things begin, from Megan's perspective everyone seemed to fall apart when the bang went off meaning it must be something dangerous, but because it is unpredictable she has no way of controlling it or knowing when it is going to happen next. The result is anxiety as she then begins to pick up on other loud noises, wondering if they might have the same effect. It goes without saying that a sensitive, noise reactive type of dog gets a double whammy and, as you indicate, it has all become mixed up with separation anxiety.

As I said, you carry on as you are doing or try the desensitization/counterconditioning route, but there are no guarantees it will work, it might be worth a try but you do need a very good behaviourist. Sorry not to be able to offer more constructive advice.

If current crate is too big  and you are reluctant to buy another in case she hates it, why not try to make a shelter over her basket- any budding carpenters in your household? Just make sure it cannot collapse onto her!!!

> make a shelter over her basket

Now that's an idea.  I could do the same with her bed up here in my workroom too - it is under the desk but too open for the purpose.  Thanks.

I thought that was too good to be true! He woke up last night at 2.30, and would only settle if one of us was in the kitchen with him. As soon as we went out, up he got, and started whining and pacing again. Nowhere near as distressed again, but we're at a bit of a loss as to what to try next, other than shutting him in the kitchen for increasing periods when we're in the house, to try and break the cycle.
Any other ideas?

I hardly got any sleep last night either.  There was a rumble of thunder about 3 ish.  I went down and sat watching tv with a cup of tea until she got up from the door and went back to her basket.  After that she just rattled the door a few times - but not really in a panic. I didn't go down again because she wasn't desperate. I spent the night on alert - every noise disturbed me.  If you go down to them they will try to get you there again - it is knowing when they are really stressed or just trying to get you near.  It will take a while to break the habit.  When I had this before it died out after a while.  It is only this thunder that has upset things again.  The weather has been wild so let's hope a few quieter nights might see the dogs settle down into routine again.  I set up a routine at night. I say the same words and put a bisuit in her bed.  I try to be consistant but when it thunders I have no choice but to go to her otherwise she will hurt herself.

We've had a radical idea! We're going to try him in the hallway tonight - theres an alcove at the foot of the stairs which his bed fits in perfectly. He won't be disturbed by outside noises, and as suggested earlier, he'll feel closer to us. If we shut all the doors on to the hallway, we can let him bark, and the neighbours won't hear, as its on the other side of the house to them.
If he genuinely gets distressed, I can just sit at the top of the stairs, so he's not getting any interaction, but knows someone is there.
Full report in the morning!

Good idea.

Depending on the size of the hall and how it is arranged it might be possible to put a baby gate across, or even across the alcove area, just to ensure he can't roam or get up the stairs. If you leave your door open he can hear you too and that might be enough. Good luck.

Ceejay,

I agree, it is knowing the difference between just whinging to see if they can get you down and real anxiety. I have to say that if a dog has never experienced thunder through its sensitive period at puppyhood, it is not unreasonable that it is likely to be terrified the first time it hears it as an adult and wonder what the heck is going on. After all, some humans are absolutely terrified of thunder too and they know what it is! I guess those noise CD's can have a real place in preparing pups for odd noises like thunder. Anyhow, under such circumstances I rather think it is fair enough to casually let the dog know you are around and unfazed- even if it is at 3am!

My dogs always have the run of the house at night with all the doors open and they always choose to sleep in the bedroom. I have never had a disturbed night. Dogs are social animals and the sound of their friends, human or animal, breathing as they sleep is natural for them.

Zan in the ideal world that is fine!  But I have a reactive little dog who would not take too kindly to someone falling over her in the dark - or stepping on her as we got out of bed.  Not sure my husband really opens his eyes on the way to the loo every night.  As for one of the grandchildren - finding themselves nose to nose with my dog when they have just woken up by a nightmare may prove too much for child and dog.  I have found by bitter experience that I can't let her up one night, then expect her to stay down another.  I would dearly love to have another dog to keep her company - but I am extremely cautious after having this one.

Good luck ajpaul - a change of room may be just what he needs - whatever has made him anxious at night may be associated with the kitchen.  When I had this anxiety one windy night - must have been about this time last year I suppose - I let Meg into our room.  Of course she worried, cried and rattled the door for days and days after that even if it was a still night.  I used to come down settle her down and close the door and go half way up stairs.  She really knew where I was.  Just getting out of bed and tiptoeing to the top of the stairs was enough to tell her that I may come down and let her back upstairs again.  I gradually worked my way back.  In the end I just walked to the top of the stairs and spoke to her - saying settle down.  In the end I just let her rattle the door - sometimes I even slept right through it according to my husband.  The behaviour gradually faded out when she realised that I was not going to let her up to our bedroom.  Instead I let her go into the utility room and up to my workroom above.  She can hide under my desk or sit and look out of the window.  That was the only concession I have made.  If she really is frightened by something then I have to come down and sit with her for as long as it takes.  I am lucky - I don't have to go to work in the morning now.  - However I would not have a dog like Meg if I was still working anyway.

A successful night I think! Settled no problems. A couple of half-hearted whines, but again, back to sleep in a few minutes. I think tonight will be the real tester. Last night, he was probably as exhausted as us, plus he had his puppy class, which always tires him out.
I meant to say, we have a gate across the stairs, so its a good size space for him to sleep him, but have a bit of a potter if he wakes up. We'll see.

aj,
Oh good, glad he settled. Keep up with the DAP too, as that will help. Are you using a plug-in diffuser? If you have a baby gate and also leave your bedroom door open it means he should be able to hear you breathing etc.. which should help him too. You may have a few ups and downs, but I do think it will pass. Just think of it as a phase in his development when he is probably noticing noises and other things much more than before and has to learn these are okay and not signs of danger. On the other hand, he may also naturally want to be up with you, the rest of his family. Again, it'll take time for him to accept that is not how it is going to be, but provided he is not genuinely scared, he will accept it after a while.

When my lad was a youngster he had a few spooky periods and I just went down and slept on the sofa for a night and that reassured him.

> A successful night I think

Good hope this works for you.  I think I need to replace the 2 chairs in our kitchen with a sofa so I can kip down there too.  Hubby offered to go down last night - can't believe we have had 3 nights of this weather.  A terrific clap of thunder had Meg in such a panic that she had a hole in the veneer of the door before he could get downstairs.  I think she has started using her teeth now.  I could put the dog gate across but that would be a dangerous obstacle too - she has leapt it in the past.  If only the door would open the other way I would leave it so that a good push would get it open - then at least it would mean that she could come up to meet me in her panic.  I hate to think what she could do if we were out.  Panic this morning as we were overtaken by a boy racer with a noisy exhaust - which backfired as he went round the corner.  How can you desensitize a dog to this - a major job I think.  The world is such a dangerous place to her.

Slept right through tonight - its begining to feel like we're back in the usual routine. Thanks for all the advice folks!