I thought having seen some of the replies re. genetics and colour, I'd ask about Opi.

Now, I know for a fact she is 50% rottweiler at least - met the mum when I picked her up as a pup.  But beyond that, I've never been sure - the sire was taken out for the day to 'stop him getting upset' - he was supposed to be a rotti too so clearly that was done so we wouldn't realise.  Hindsight, eh?

I've got pics of her as she grew so you can see.  What isn't obvious is her undercoat - mostly black, but over the back of her neck it's grey, and on the top of her head it's a lovely russety red colour, if I lift the hairs to look at it.  She's also got a bit of a curl to her tail, but I've seen similar in full rotties so I'm putting that down to that side of her.  Down her back the hair is a little wavy but again, I've seen that in full rotts - and labs, and collies, and GSDs... :-P

Traits-wise I'm torn between lab, GSD and collie - head-wise I'm inclined to lab as her head is very similar to Saffi's.  But she's also got those two tan flashes on her chest which make me think GSD.

9 weeks old
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x55/Nikirushka/Dogs/Opi/fluffy.jpg

10 weeks
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x55/Nikirushka/Dogs/Opi/10weeks3.jpg

4-5 months
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x55/Nikirushka/Dogs/Opi/opisign.jpg

2 years
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x55/Nikirushka/Dogs/Opi/11sept2004.jpg

Head shot
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x55/Nikirushka/DSCF8050.jpg

Body shot at 2 (her tuckup is much less sharp now, but she is 8!)
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x55/Nikirushka/opibushes.jpg

I'd say her tail's far too feathery to have lab; rottie's tails aren't like that so it would have to come from her sire.

In reltation to the tail they can do and be all sorts these days it seems as they are so new to the breed.  There was one photo and her muzzle from the side was so GSD like. It's the tuck up On the last photo which has confused me as it's very Greyhound like.

Is it possible that her father may even be a Rottie cross himself?
Overall I'm not inclined to think Lab, we've always had working lines and I'm not seeing any linkage, then again people are saying my eyes need testing, lol

I have a friend with a Rottie/GSD cross and her dog looks quite similar, although he is a very tall and thickset dog with masses of bone and big chunky feet.
Whatever the sire is, I think he would have to carry black & tan for Opi to have those markings.

Neither Rotties nor Labs should have that much tuck-up at the waist so I'd guess there is some sight hound in the mix.  Or whatever other breeds have such extreme tuck-up.  Maybe?

suejaw - entirely possible dad was a rott X, I have absolutely no idea what he was so anything is possibly really!  All I know is that it was a horse farm with a few dogs running around, but they were terriers - I do believe that dad was taken away for the day, but only so we didn't twig that the pups weren't full rotti.

Her tuck-up is nowhere near what it was - this is her now:

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x55/Nikirushka/Dscf7988.jpg

But yes, it was very high back then.

> this is her now:

Actually she looks just like my friend's Rottie/GSD mix in this photo.

In that case I'm going to stick with a part mix with a Shepherd :-)

I don't recognise any Lab features here!

> Whatever the sire is, I think he would have to carry black & tan for Opi to have those markings.

Yes, it's more than likely he would.
Nikita - I take it you saw more of the litter? Were they all black and tan? If so then dad must have been black and tan himself (GSDs have the black and tan gene) or solid black/liver, since this is the only gene that is recessive to B&T.

However just to confuse things many solid black/liver (and also blue/lilac) dogs have the Dominant Black gene K, meaning that would have over-ridden B&T and they would all have been solid (black, most likely).

We saw two pups up close - Opi and her brother - and they were identical.  Ditto the other two that we didn't hold (it was a case of 'here's a dog and a bitch, pick one' :-( ).

Going off on a slight tangent, about the B&T gene; River is a black and tan lab/collie, or supposed to be - black lab mother and tricolour collie father.  At least, that's what her last owners were told - they saw the mother and the other pups but not the dad (accidental mating, apparently), all black & tan with white markings except for River who has no white.  Feasible parentage do you think?

Sticking with my collie/rottie guess. Hadn't seen the pics showing her tuck up, but that pic convinces me even more and the fact she was farm bred.

Are you sure there wasn,t a working collie loose on the farm,
The tail and the eyes suggest collie to me.

There may well have been - the only dogs I saw were terrier types, but as I said the dad was taken out, I believe so we couldn't see what he was.

> Are you sure there wasn,t a working collie loose on the farm,

That's a point..... I wonder if the litter was dual-sired?

With regard to Tia then yes a Lab father could have produced Tris to a Tri mother. I believe many Labs are Dominant Black [K] but there must be some that are recessive black, as evidenced by the Black & Tan Labs that turned up in a litter a few years ago - this couldn't have happened with the K gene. Or perhaps he wasn't 100% Lab himself.

Collie white markings seems to be passed on very variably, with some collie crosses having none or very little - my family's own Lab x Collie had just a white snip on her muzzle, a white locket and one white foot if my memory serves me correct. [Didn't see any of her littermates but we were told by the [disgusted!] breeder that her mum was a "prizewinning" (aren't they all! lol) show Lab, and dad was the local farmer's collie... in the days before Alizin!].

Thinking about the litter my BSD cross came from (mum was farm bred collie) none of the litter had anything like what I'd call "collie" type white markings - but all 6 had typical BSD white fore or hind toe/s and/or chest spots.

River sounds 'bona fide' then :-) Not a white hair on her though - the only pup like it in the litter.

Back to Opi - I guess it would be possible that the litter was dual-sired, although with all four pups looking identical I'd be surprised.

> River sounds 'bona fide' then

Sorry! I put Tia, didn't I? Whoops! :)

Edit: Just been doing some digging on Border Collie white pattern. It seems the gene responsible hasn't actually been identified yet, though they know it is not the same as some other piebald/bicolour genes in other dogs.
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogspots.html#Spotted

Of interest is the cross between the Newfoundland with a white chest locket and the Border Collie. This was the breeding that proved BC markings are not related to some white patterns in other breeds.

Study is here - http://genomebiology.com/2000/1/2/research/0004/
The molecular stuff does go way over my head but I can pick the bones out.

On the first photo she looks very similar to a photo I have of our old GSD at that age.

I think she more than half Rott but can see slight GSD in the last two photos so I'd say her father was a Rott x GSD

she's lovely! My money  is on a significant dose of WSD in there. She just has that 'look'. especially with the feathery tail and tuck up. if it was a tri collie the markings would fit wouldn't they? I'm sure i've seen collie and collie crosses with those sort of markings on the body.

I'd going to stick a vote in for Rottie / shepherd. :-)

looking at all the pictures I too thought collie cross with pup taking more after the Rottie side for head and substance.