Is there a legal minimum age to breed a bitch. Someone I know has just had a cross bred litter and the bitch is only 10 months old now? :(
Is this actually illegal?

Perfectly legal...highly immoral.. :-(
Aileen

Thats a shame. I would have no hesitation in reporting these people. It makes me so mad.

My rescue c. spaniel had 3 litters in her first 3 years of life, it was only Pyo that allowed me to take her as she was no longer any good to them. This was not a true puppy farm, but a supposed breeder.

there is a lady where we live has a new bitch every 3 years the old one disapears and the new one of about 1 year old appears and then is bred the first litter is reg and then she breeds within 6 months and does not reg them puts them with the dog lovers register and then 6 months later another litter and then registers these ones with the kc, the bitch is a mess by the time she is 3 this is a high price breed , we only know this due to knowing someone that used to show her dogs alongside her and reported her in the end but nothing was done as far as we know

has a new bitch every 3 years the old one disapears and the new one of about 1 year old appears

This sounds very much like where my little c. spaniel came from. The heartbreaking thing was that one of the pups from her last litter was kept to take her place in the ongoing breeding programme. I asked if I could buy the pup and they told me to contact them in 3 years when she had earned her keep and would be ready for sale.

Only illegal in Licensed/required to be Licensed commercial breeding premises, also the KC will not register puppies where the bitch was under 12 months at MATING.

So sad to hear about these poor dogs. If only there was proper legislation in place to stop these horrible people. It makes me so mad when I hear of what goes on.
If you know who they are a call to the Inland revenue, may help to put a stop to them. If you think they may be on benefits the DWP may also be interested and the local council or landlord, as they could be trading against the terms of their lease if they are in rented accommodation.
Anything to rain on their parade  !!!
You can now report benefit cheats anonymously via crimestoppers, I read in local paper recently. I would not normaly do anything like that but these people need to be stopped.

> Only illegal in Licensed/required to be Licensed commercial breeding premises, also the KC will not register puppies where the bitch was under 12 months at MATING.

not commercial breeders and the litter is a cross. I am just so upset as I know the breeder of the mother and she was given to these people as a pet without papers as she had a heart murmur. They were supposed to be giving her a quiet pet home. But then apparently decided that it would be a good idea to breed her with a friends dog on her first season when she wasn't even a year old. The breeder is absolutely devastated that the people she trusted with her pup could do such a thing.

These stories are horrific. Those poor dogs being made to be bred like that makes you angry. Especially when the dogs owners know they have health problems. Just wish something could be done for people breeding dogs carelessly.

Just wish something could be done for people breeding dogs carelessly.

But are you not against Endorsements and they are part of the attempt to improve breeding practices - unfortunately it is the GP that requires the education because if they only bought from responsible breeders then those who bred for money or just because they can would not be able to sell and most would stop.

>Just wish something could be done for people breeding dogs carelessly.

This is why responsible breeders place endorsements on their puppies.

If all puppy buyers were equally responsible there would be no need.

>has a new bitch every 3 years the old one disapears and the new one of about 1 year old appears<b> I asked if I could buy the pup and they told me to contact them in 3 years when she had earned her keep and would be ready for sale.

That is so sad.  I can't imagine "getting rid" of any of my girls at 3 years old.  All my spayed bitches stay here too, they are not sold on as "ex breeding stock" - I love them, why would I sell them on?

It is heartbreaking that some dogs do not actually belong to dog lovers.  Makes me weep.

I am not totally against endorsements if breeders lifted them when pups have health tests. Some  breeders do not lift no matter what and endorsing puppies does not deter people from breeding as people buy pups with no papers cheaper than a kc puppy because the KC papers (in the new owners eyes) are worthless if you cant do anything with them so they go ahead and breed anyway. All a endorsement does is stop you registering not breeding so it defeats the whole object as a lot of buyers just buy pedigree pups with a pedigree but no kc papers. Endorsements just dont work nowadays. Thats just my opinion. 

I know of a few breeders that do this, one springs to mind that does it almost prolifically. It's very sad and I don't agree with it; dogs should be kept regardless of if they're 'useful' or not.

> I am not totally against endorsements if breeders lifted them when pups have health tests.

It is not just about health testing.  We have had a novice breeder posting just very recently who has done health testing but just about everything else about their breeding plans is very wrong.

> Endorsements just dont work nowadays.

I think they do.  As you say people can breed anyway but the value of the puppies is greatly reduced so making the whole idea much less attractive.

> I know of a few breeders that do this, one springs to mind that does it almost prolifically. It's very sad and I don't agree with it; dogs should be kept regardless of if they're 'useful' or not.

I know a few breeders that do this too, older ones generally.  I don't really have any issue with it.  They look after their dogs well whilst they are with them and place them with considerable care following their breeding.  My breed is a very adaptable one and, although they love human company they are not particularly picky about it always being the same human company :)  Perhaps it is an arrogance to feel our dogs can only love us and nobody else :)
It used to be done far more commonly and I sometimes wonder if what we have now, the hobby breeder who keeps all their dogs, is something better.  When space in the home is short the temptation to breed from nothing more than adequate dogs must be an issue and I doubt the old style kennels would have had the same qualms about moving that dog on to a pet home.

>I am not totally against endorsements if breeders lifted them when pups have health tests.

But it's not just health tests, is it? The dog's temperament might not have developed as you'd hope (a stable temperament is vital for a breeding animal); its mouth might not be right, it might have become cow-hocked as it developed ... there are many reasons why a promising puppy doesn't fulfil its promise. That doesn't make it worth an less as a pet - it just means that it shouldn't be bred from. And endorsements are the breeder's only way (other than keeping all their puppies till they're fully grown before selling them!) of ensuring that these genes are removed from the registered gene pool.

If people genuinely just want a pet then endorsements don't matter in the slightest.

i agree katalina but in my opinion i think people who endorse paper dont endorse for the right reasons its ok for them to make money on thier dogs but people who buy their pups do not have the freedom to breed their dogs its all about restricting other people to breed they like making money but dont want anyone else too .....

i wouldnt buy a puppy with restrictions even though i dont breed !!!!

Pedigree dogs would soon come to a sorry end if nobody ever sold a puppy to another breeder! :)
My guess is you don't personally know many breeders and therefore do not appreciate the way they think. 
I see you have just this moment joined the board so perhaps when you have stuck around a little longer and read a few threads particularly in the breeding board you might get a rather different impression.

>i think people who endorse paper dont endorse for the right reasons

Responsible, caring breeders endorse their puppies to try to prevent them being abused and exploited by puppy farmers or BYBs. I can't think of a better reason than that.

>i wouldnt buy a puppy with restrictions even though i dont breed !!!!

Why not? What would you want to do with the dog that the endorsements would prevent you from doing, if you don't breed and you don't sell dogs overseas?

our puppy will come with endorsements which is our breeders choice. I dont think breeding is about making money but more about breeding good lines, endorsements would be lifted if the person intending to breed is worthy of the task and the dogs involved health tested etc.   Our breeder has put a lot of time love and energy into her dogs and her litter and i think she has every right to try and protect that. im no expert so may have it wrong.

>Our breeder has put a lot of time love and energy into her dogs and her litter and i think she has every right to try and protect that.

You understand it right. :-) If you and she agreed that the pup turned out to be worthy of breeding from then she'd be supporting and helping you with your breeding plans to her fullest ability.

Why would anyone even consider breeding from anything but the best.

In which case both the breeder and the buyer are of the same mind.

So what is so very difficult in agreeing a contract that suits both.

A good breeder will want the dog being breed to be of the best possible quality.

The buyer should feel the same.

So the contract specifies when the endorsement will be lifted.

The very least that should be required is that all tests should be undertaken and the dog to have good results.

The dog should be shown or worked and judged as being of top quality.

If the last two points are cleared then the endorsement will be lifted, simple, no hassle.

Sorry but if you do not agree with that why are you even considering breeding, and if you are not how does it matter if you have an endorsement on the puppy or not.

i never said i disgaree with the reasons why u put the endorsemnets on i just think ppl shoould have the right to there own puppy... personally i dont agree with breeding i think its cruel the way breeders breed there dogs till there of NO USE and then get rid of them only to be replaced by a younger fitter model to carry on making them the big bucks i just dont see the big deal with the endorsements you make the money then you have the cheek too say youre protecting the breed haha dont make me laugh ive heard that so many times before and yes i maybe new but it doesnt mean i havent seen the affects breeding has on dogs

> personally i dont agree with breeding

Should the stork bring your puppy to you? :)

>personally i dont agree with breeding

Everyone whose bitch has a litter is a breeder; if you don't agree with breeding then there would be no dogs! It's a bit like children - you only need to have one baby to be a parent - likewise you only need to breed a single puppy to be a breeder.

You still haven't explained why you wouldn't buy a puppy whose registration was endorsed. What difference would it make to you?

Woodykay21- Unfortunately you seem to be taking the easy option of tarring every breeder with the same brush. Using that "logic" I could say that everybody who buys a puppy is not to be trusted, will breed unregistered puppies and then dump it on the roadside. Of course we know that is not the case.
Jeff. 

its all to do with choice an endorsed paper is worth nothing i mean c'mon what is the point in having a top pedigree dog with a worthless kc paper ?

> i think its cruel the way breeders breed there dogs till there of NO USE

That is called puppy farming or Back yard breeding, though technically they are 'breeders' as they have bitches that have puppies.

No one worthy of the title breeder exploits their bitches that way, and by placing endorsements on their puppies they try to prevent others from easily doing so.

Few would have even the maximum number of 4 litters the Kennel club allow.  

> i just dont see the big deal with the endorsements you make the money then you have the cheek too say youre protecting the breed haha

You would be hard put to make any money from 4 litters from a bitch having around 2 - 3 litters in her breeding life of 2 - 7 years of age, as you still ahve to fit in wher show/work carreer. 

You have the cost of keeping her for that length of time, and then the health tests, and costs of showing or testing working ability, competing in canine sports.

Done properly your lucky to cover much more than the costs of the litter alone, especially if veterinary intervention is needed, if lucky you will have a little left to pay for a few show entries or some new things for the dogs.

Of course a Puppy Farmer starting at the first season and breeding every season, with little expenditure on the bitch and getting rid of her when she is worn out after a litter every season will make plenty of money especially if they feed cheaply and squash in as many as they can into an outbuilding, using their own stud dog and of course no health testing and little veterinary attention.

>c'mon what is the point in having a top pedigree dog with a worthless kc paper ?

The paper isn't worthless (as has been explained, endorsements can be lifted if the dog turns out to be worthy of passing on its genes), and it doesn't change the dog. You still have the same 'top pedigree dog'. That hasn't changed. Many people don't even transfer the pup into their ownership, whether its endorsed or not - because if it's just a pet then it makes no difference. Endorsements only deter buyers who intend to exploit the puppy when it's older ... and that's a Good Thing!

The endorsements only affect you if you intend to breed. Why buy from a breeder who will not lift the restrictions if you do intend to breed. Its surely the choice of the breeder in the first place. If you cant prove you are breeding for the right reasons why should they be lifted. If i was intending to breed (which i am not) I wouldnt buy from someone who wasnt 100% happy with me breeding. The kc papers are a way of protecting the breed and i would be more concerned buying a puppy with no papers than a puppy with endorsements.

woodyk21 welcome to the forum. Seems you can't have your own opinion on here without others questioning your opinions because they don't happen to agree with others. I too happen to agree with what you are saying i like you have never bred a dog and don't intend too either but it's a matter of having a full KC to have a choice. My show cocker is fully KC'd with champions and no endorsements and i think if people want to breed with health tested parents then they should be able to do so. Many pets are loved as much as breeders pupppies and people don't worry wheather they have the best champion or wheather it won at crufts this year as long as they have a healthy puppy.

> i mean c'mon what is the point in having a top pedigree dog with a worthless kc paper ?

I fail to understand how it is worthless.  It gives the dogs ancestry, it means that it's ancestry can be verified and health status if tested known.  the dog can take part in canine competitions governed by the kennel club.

Or is the worth of a pedigree puppy only in the owner being able to register it's progeny?

The vast majority of pet and even show and working dogs are never bred from, and of those there are some that should not be bred from, and there are also those owners who should not breed as have not demonstrated that they have the required knowledge or commitment to the breed.

>Or is the worth of a pedigree puppy only in the owner being able to register it's progeny?

That surely is the attitude of the puppy farmer?

>but it's a matter of having a full KC to have a choice.

You do have a choice. If you want to use your dog for breeding you have the choice to go back to its breeder (who you should ideally stil be in contact with) to discuss lifting the endorsements, and you'll be given all the help in choosing a suitable sire to ensure you get the best possible litter. That's the responsible way of doing things.

The irresponsible way is to choose a stud dog at random (he happens to live close by is the usual reason) and go it alone, without any backup.

To be fair this is a case of totally misunderstanding of the system and what is involved in breeding a litter and I can't imagine any amount of words is going to change that. Nothing said has been explained it is just a case of dam everything with no explanation as to why.

It is an example of why there are so many poorly bred puppies from puppy farms and BYB being sold the purchasers just do not understand what they should be looking for and for some reason do not want it explained.

ty katalina i no i was just stating an opinion and get jumped on by breeders that dont like me saying anything bad against breeders in my opinion breeders are breeders end of thats the good the bad and the ok breeders i'll never breed as i want my dog to keep its health and figure i think its great you found a dog out there katalina that isn't restricted you can truly call your dog yours

>i no i was just stating an opinion and get jumped on

You're not being jumped on, you're being educated because you seem to misunderstand the facts.

You still haven't explained what difference endorsements make to a pet owner? What are they prevented from doing that they otherwise would? All they can't do is register puppies from them (which if they're not going to breed anyway is irrelevent) or sell the dog abroad for showing/breeding (which if it's their loved pet they wouldn't do either, so again it's irrelevent).

The dog is 100% their own dog.

You're not being jumped on, you're being educated because you seem to misunderstand the facts.

You still haven't explained what difference endorsements make to a pet owner?

Jumped on, no you are not, you are being asked to explain what to me, at least, seems unexplainable - you have had the facts explained so what is your problem with an endorsement.

> in my opinion breeders are breeders end of thats the good the bad and the ok breeders i'll never breed as i want my dog to keep its health and figure i think its great you found a dog out there katalina that isn't restricted you can truly call your dog yours

I fail to understand that if you think all breeders and breeding is bad, that you then champion someone wanting unrestricted ability to breed from a dog they buy as a puppy before they can prove if it is of sufficient quality and freedom from health or temperament defects?

i no it is irrelavent if there not breeding but some people like me dont like buying something with restrictions not because we want to breed or show the dog abroad just because well for me i just like to have the freedom of the papers not that i would ever breed i just like the knowledge that my dog isnt restricted in anyway

Nice to meet you woodyk21. I have had my baby for three years now never bred her and never will. We are even being compared to byb breeders even though we have stated we aren't breeders. My cocker is health tested and will be with me for life. I even have a labrador too but i love show cockers so had the two breeds which we adore. There are lots of people who buy dogs with pedigree but not kc and still have a good pedigree al dogs are worthy whether kc or not. If it was endorsed i wouldn't have felt it was my pet or that it was properly kc'd. Breeders never state on their adverts either that they are endorsent only the odd few. It is only when you enquire u are told  which was what i found when i was looking for my cocker. I am stil in touch with my breeder and we have a good relationship even though the pedigree is not endorsed. She is a  lovely woman.

i no it is irrelavent if there not breeding but some people like me dont like buying something with restrictions not because we want to breed or show the dog abroad just because well for me i just like to have the freedom of the papers not that i would ever breed i just like the knowledge that my dog isnt restricted in anyway

My point exactly

We are even being compared to byb breeders even though we have stated we aren't breeders.

and yet you have written on another post

My bitch was a month late when she had a litter.

Surely that is breeding Katalina

With all the irresponsible breeding that occurs, bitches being bred from too young, passed on to other people to be exploited again and again do you not understand why a breeder may seek to protect their breed and their own individual puppies by applying reasonable restrictions that make doing this less profitable/likely.

Unregistered pedigree puppies are bred because for some reason they can't be, usually those reasons are bad.  The bitch is too young, too old, bred from to often or has not been health tested etc, so restrictions still in place.

This is the way not to get a good healthy typical of it's breed puppy, and if ti turns out to be, it is not by design but by sheer good fortune.

Yes silly sue i bred my lab she had a litter and is now spayed i did not breed loads of litters like some breeders and every pup was healthy and health tested thank you very much.

do u lot actually go searching for info on ppl lol

>i bred my lab she had a litter

Then you are a breeder. You might not be breeding now - you might not ever breed again - but you will always be the breeder of that litter.

I my am i really a breeder i would never have guessed breeding a litter of labs