My son has been dismissed from work all be cause of me and I feel so upset and guilty. He had a verbal warning due to having 5 sick days in 5 months, 3 of the days were altogether and one other was related to his time off on the 3 days, but on this day he offered to go in and do not so much heavy lifting as recommended by the doctor that he saw that morning. He was told they had cover so asked if could take it as A/L which was agreed.

I wrote out a letter with my son explaining his sickness and that one of the days was A/L in the end, and that he offered to go in after the doctors. The verbal warning letter said it was in accordance with ACAS guidelines so I went onto ACAS to check things out. Before the warning he should have been offered an informal chat about his sickness and given an opportunity to put his side forward. Anyway we wrote all this in the letter and apologised for the sicktime even though he was genuinely ill, and could it be re looked at.
Well he came home with a letter saying if he had bothered to read his contract (exact words) he have known he could not appeal against the warning, in fact his contract says he cant appeal until a second written warning! The director has given grounds for dismissal as high absenteeism and his attitude towards his warning which doesn't fit in with their standards . As he has only been there for 5mths he cannot go for unfair dismissal, ACAS have confirmed this. He has to work a 4 week notice and if not any monies owed will be forfeited. The letter was in thick bold type

Now at the end of this week is pay day but he cant bear to go in next week now this has happened as it will be a horrible environment, so would this mean he will lose out on the last 3 weeks worth of pay (150hrs min wage) if he doesn't show up? His contract does say that if don't fully work any notice all money owed will be forfeited - can they actually do this? can they really not pay him for the last 3 weeks?
ACAS said it would have to be questioned if it was lawful but argued in a tribunal. My son wont do this he just wants to walk away and start looking for a better job and one with a contract that works a little for the employee and not just the employer. 

he has an interview on tuesday for a good job but couldn't get the time off to go so was going to probably have to decline it but now he needs a new job so needs to attend it, if he just goes in the morning could he get instantly dismissed and still lose all his money for not turning up to work?

I have been crying on and off since yesterday evening as it was me that told him he can't just be walked over and agree to warnings that are wrong or at least not put your side on things. You try so hard to teach your kids to stand up for themselves and then it backfires. He was going to hand his notice in anyway as hates the job so much and the management so why didn't i just keep quiet and let him take the warning.

I can give him his wages if he loses them but I am desperately trying to find out if withholding wages for hours worked is legal if written in a contract plus I dont want this bully style management to get away with it.

sorry sooo long winded.

Yes if he doesn't turn up he won't be paid.

I would suggest that he focuses on the interview on Tuesday and puts the effort in preparing for the interview and show them what potential he has and what he would bring to the job.
If he has to get references then they have to give a reference that states the truth ie that he was dismissed because of having the sickness time but any good employer if he proves himself in the interview will give him a chance. They cannot state anything else negative in the reference if he did his job well and upto an acceptable standard as if they do then he would have grounds to take them to court.

By the sounds of it he is better off out of it as they do sound to be a nightmare employer.

thanks.
amazes me that they can stop pay for work he has already done, does not seem fair at all.

we appt at CAB on Tuesday after his interview but not sure what will happen when he doesn't go in on Tuesday! I am going to get him to go on monday weds and friday, he should get paid for the previous 4 weeks as it will be pay day. Dont see that they can hold off on his normal payday.

Sorry misread the fact they have said that they will refuse to pay him for work already done. No that is not right and he would have a claim for that.

thats where I'm not sure because it is actually in the employee contracts if they give their notice or dismissed they have to work a full 4 weeks & any A/L already booked gets cancelled or any monies owed will be forfeited. Its a really controlling contract but you dont realise this until you're in the job as at the beginning you sign it because you're thankful of work, if you dont sign it then there's no job.

We will be reading his next contract, whenever that may come, in more depth and actually consider what it means.

What did acas say about that ?

I thought contracts had to be fair and within the law, surely wages for time worked cannot be witheld, ditto holidays earned.

Do the company give them any sort of training when they start working? In my company if anyone leaves within 2 years of starting they can be 'charged' £2000, or wages withheld to cover the cost of their pcv licence etc. I wonder if this is similar?

No training given as it was only a warehouse job, he already had his forklift licence. I wouldn't think wages can be held if you dont work your your full notice but it is highlighted in thick black type that this would be the case.
ACAS said it could be challenged at a tribunal because it could be questioned that it is isn't lawful. All that takes time though and if my son doesn't turn up tomorrow morning then his wages for the last 3 weeks could be forfeited as his pay day is at the end of this week coming. Not good this close to christmas for a youngster to have no money.
Not sure what they will do when he doesn't go in on tuesday (he has an interview plus an appt with Citizens advice). If they dismiss instantly i suspect they will hold onto all his money!!
CAB advised that he try and go in tomorrow as this will strengthen his case because he is willing to work the notice given BUT would anyone want to go back to such an employer and face working with their colleagues. At 22 this will be difficult.

> BUT would anyone want to go back to such an employer and face working with their colleagues.

If he is needing a reference from them then he will have to.

Think his main problem is going to be getting time off for this interview on Tuesday :-(  Has he broached the subject yet with them?

Really feel for you....don't think you did anything wrong, you were, as you said, trying to give him positive guidance and good life lessons and it has backfired, not through anything you have done but just his rogue employers.

I can't see how legally they can withold wages and holidays he has already earnt however I would urge him just to stick in there and work out the last week.  They are the ones in the wrong, he has got the moral high ground - just go in with his head held high and show them what they are losing.

I'm a great believer in fate - he's better off out of there and hopefully will end up going onto bigger and better things.  I know its not much consolation when he is facing being out of work at the moment but heh....you've both got to stay positive...(and don't let the bxxx's get you down)  ((xx))

If he is serving notice it is perfectly reasonable to take time off to attend an interview and I would think he would have cause for action if the time was refused or a penalty was imposed.

Call it a suspicious mind but wont four weeks take the firm nicely up to Christmas.

We have tried to get him to go in tomorrow and make him see it will it is likely to shock the director, I bet they are hoping he doesn't show then dont have to pay him anything. He in very low agitated mood and distant from me which is understandable I suppose.

He has told us tonight that when he was called into the office prior to being told of his dismissal the director got out his chair leaned over his desk and commenced shouting and waving the letter that my son had given in, he didn't give much opportunity for my son to explain anything but my son did tell him it was what he and his family thought re the sickness, the director then said 'i dont care about you or your family'. Later in the afternoon when mu son was working packing up orders the director came down and spoke with manager telling him to stop my son from doing it in case he deliberately messed things up! what he is expected to do over the next 2 1/2 weeks i dont know except have a cushier time and get paid! my suspicion will be that he gets given the worse jobs to do.

you cant take time off for interview if you resign or get dismissed, its only redundancy that the employer has to allow this time. He wont be given the time off as had already asked if he could A/L on tuesday and they said no.

the director's wife is not like him so i am going to try and reason with her tomorrow and see if i get anywhere.

my son just wants to leave and is prepared to lose money, he doesn't even want to go to the CAB as he says i dont understand what this employer is like and we wont get anywhere. 

Just a thought I really think you should not get involved anymore.

He is old enough to fight his corner now and think if you do try and talk to them it may make things even worse than they already are. I know you want to help but I think stepping back and letting things happen will be the best way forward.

I know what your saying but its so hard because he wont do anything and then these type of people win all the time and continue to take advantage of the younger generation knowing they probably wont take things further.
What wrong with guiding him through?? a mothers instinct is to fight for your children, however old, if they are being treated badly or unfairly everyone should have someone to help them.

I will see if he goes in today but as he's not up yet I dont think he will be.

Nothing wrong with guiding at all but I think you talking to them would have a negative impact considering what they are like from what you have said ;-)

It is difficult as I know you want to help but I think as I said before get his focus on the interview tomorrow as that is the most important thing for him to focus on as it is his future that is at stake :-)

I am sure it will all work out and hope your stress levels subside soon x

Hi Lorripop, how did your son get on?  I haven't had anything to add, but have been following the thread.  I'm having a bad time at work at the moment too with a firm trying to get rid of me, so I really sympathise with him.  It's not a nice feeling.  I hope the interview went well and your son finds a better job with a nicer company.

Hi thanks for asking. He went in on monday until lunchtime but couldn't stand it so just came after his lunch without telling anyone! I did not agree with him and told him he should go in before leaving and let them know the reason for not him not returning in the afternoon but he just wouldn't. He said he had been in different depts as no one knew what he should do.
I rang on Tuesday to explain to them but the directors would not speak with me and said it got to be in writing so I emailed explaining how humiliated and upset he had felt on friday and didn't want to face that again on monday. I also said that we had contacted a solicitor who said we were well within rights to question the verbal warning over sickness days. solicitor thought the contract was very cunning in the way it is worded and its all for the employer not the employee. I also explained to the director that I didnt agree with my son just leaving without telling anyone, I also gave said that I think he (director) acted harshly on a friday afternoon when he could have just said sign the warning or resign. I was very polite in the email.

Anyway my son recieved a letter on weds going on about he was well within his right to dismiss him, he would pay him for the 3 weeks work already done plus 4 A/L days. He went on about him being 22 and men younger than him are fighting and dying for their country and why when he employs him does his mother ring up!! I understand I shouldn't have rung but my son is not the character of a soldier and is very under confident and shy ( I didnt want them to think of him as ill mannered because he isn't, he just finds explaining things difficult and was nervous) - in my view these types need help to stand up to people like this director. The tone was slightly improved from the dismissal one and i think what I wrote in the email may have sunk in a bit in the sense that shouting at employees is not a good way for an employer to behave and it could have been handled in a much better way.
He has had good support from other colleagues at work who couldn't believe why he had been sacked and the HR girl has said to put her name down on any job applications as a reference.
He didnt get either of jobs he has just been interviewed for, one didn't even let him know by letter or email, just said he know by tuesday which came and went.

Earl, I hope you get sorted at work but please ring citizens advice as they were very good on the phone.

I'm sorry your son is going through this.  It's a horrible situation.  Hopefully a new job will be right round the corner and a new employer will treat him with the respect that he deserves.  Good, honest employees are worth holding onto and I hope his old employer realises his mistakes.  As a mother I completely understand why you rang up; you want to protect your son where you can from being humiliated and hurt.  It's understandable.

I've already sought legal advice and spoken to ACAS.  They want rid of me and there's not a whole lot I can do about it unless I take them to a tribunal I'm afraid.

I'm sorry your son is going through this.  It's a horrible situation.  Hopefully a new job will be right round the corner and a new employer will treat him with the respect that he deserves.  Good, honest employees are worth holding onto and I hope his old employer realises his mistakes.  As a mother I completely understand why you rang up; you want to protect your son where you can from being humiliated and hurt.  It's understandable.

I've already sought legal advice and spoken to ACAS.  They want rid of me and there's not a whole lot I can do about it unless I take them to a tribunal I'm afraid.