I am looking for a red merle stud dog for my collie bitch for next year.

Seen a coupleof dogs so far and not impressed. Would need to be dual registered, health checked etc I'min the process of health checking my bitch so far passed with flying colours, literally just hips left to do. Even a red male would be considered as a red merle is appearing hard to find!!

Whereabouts are you?

Have you looked on Anadune?  If you want dual registered why not look at ISDS (fewer merles though) as progeny can be KC registered.  Good ones aren't easy to find but there are a few about - but dual registered may be a problem as merles aren't so popular in the working circles.

I know a breeder with both red and red merle stud dogs.  And I can vouch for temperament personally.  I have a red and white boy here who is my soulmate.

Her dogs are dual registered.  They are all DNA tested for CEA and hip scored.  Let me know if you would like me to PM some information.

Jean

I am sure you know this but just thought I would mention just in case. I hope your bitch is not a merle as 2 Merles together can have puppies that are blind and deaf. When breeding merles only one parent should be a merle.

>When breeding merles only one parent should be a merle.

And the non-merle parent shouldn't be carrying merle.

And the non-merle parent shouldn't be carrying merle.

Merle is a dominant gene - so won't be 'carried' that is any dog who isn't visibly merle (although it could be a tiny patch) won't 'carry' merle.

Do check that the stud dog (and your own bitch) is clear and at least one of them DNA tested clear of CEA and TNS.  They should also be hip scored and eye tested (visible) for PRA and any other nasties, plus for narrow angled glaucoma (a one off test).  Also, of course, check for 'compatibility' of the pedigrees.  As an addition you may want to check for deafness and although mostly hidden (ie hard to find out about) epilepsy.

>Merle is a dominant gene - so won't be 'carried' that is any dog who isn't visibly merle (although it could be a tiny patch) won't 'carry' merle.

100% agree re. the dominant gene - and we're going off topic really on the grounds that we don't even know if OP's dog is merle anyway LOL - but I wonder if a red merle can be more difficult to identify once adult in the same way as a sable merle would be, dependent on markings? Just thought I'd ask the question as I'm sure someone will know.

M.

No it isn't - it's very clear.  Unless of course the OP is talking about Australian Red which, like sable masks merle.

Ta Penny!

M.

'Red' is now confusing - 'our' red and Australian 'red' are two very different colours and shouldn't be 'confused'.  Americans apparently call the Australian red 'gold' but we've tended to change 'our' red to brown and call the new one 'red'.  It's also confusing having 'blue' merle which really is the 'black' colouring rather than the 'blue' dilute colouring - so blue dilute merle is referred to as 'slate', dilute brown is lilac and the merle of this is lilac merle.  I'm assuming the OP means brown merle and hasn't a merle dog herself :-)

What colour is your bitch?  Brown is also recessive, so if you have a black bitch who doesn't carry brown then the pups will be black - or blue merle if you have one parent merle.

I have blue merle bitch who carries red (brown) and carries tri. Father of last litter was red tri and the puppies were like a bag of dolly mixtures lol We got -2 black & white, 2 red & white, 1 red tri & white, 1 red merle and 1 blue merle.

Yes, that's the joy of genetics :-) although it doesn't always happen - my black tri bitch mated to a brown tri dog and all the pups were red tri.. second litter they were statistically correct at half and half!  I'm hoping to put her to a blue tri dog and may get black tri, blue tri, brown tri and lilac tri as both of them carry the brown gene.

I know you shouldn't choose a dog by colour, but I am doing so for my next one and I think I am looking for the almost impossible. I want a blue merle tri, but one with lots of tan markings, almost like the Australian shepherd has. I know they exist because I have seen them but I haven't found one who was registered and from health tested parents so I will patiently wait until the right one comes along :)

Why not? my new pup is a blue and white as I've always wanted one :-)  I have a lovely dark blue merle dog, I know what you mean about the tan markings... which he has, perhaps not as much as you'd like, but he's lovely for me.  Trouble is to get a good dog you have to book before they're born and then you don't know about the markings.  Merle are also a bit of a lottery as there's a few lines I wouldn't have - I'm hoping to breed from the few good lines that I know of ... eventually.  I also have to have compatible with my bitches, right colour, considering white factor etc etc etc.  A year or so ago I was in despair, but have found a couple that I like.

My bitch is from Canen lines and I wanted a dog that included Canen Pip me to Comebye as I think he is fantastic. Not much choice up here in North Scotland and so I took a 300 mile drive to get her served last time. I kept the red merle bitch and she is fantastic :)

ah, that's a dog I'm looking to avoid :-( good job we're all different! 

>Merle is a dominant gene - so won't be 'carried' that is any dog who isn't visibly merle (although it could be a tiny patch) won't 'carry' merle.

Sorry, I got my information from another breed which claims merle can be 'hidden' because they also have a coat colour that doesn't allow it to be visible.

It's interesting to learn that merle needn't affect the whole body, just a very small area, so could in theory be 'hidden' in that way.

Ah but where the coat colour can 'hide' the dog is still 'merle' it's not carried in any way.... sable doesn't show merling so a tri merle dog only shows merle on the black or brown colouring not the sable.  A sable dog therefore 'hides' the merle which is visible as a puppy but not so clear as an adult.  'New' colours in border collies also hide the 'true' colour of the coat, seal eg, although I'm certainly no expert when it gets beyond the basics.  In shelties there's been a voluntary 'ban' on mating merles to sables in the UK - although still popular in US - and now KC are refusing to register sable merle pups.  The merle gene, being dominant, cannot be 'carried' but it can affect just a small area - ears are a good place for merle to 'hide' so any progeny of a merle mating should be thoroughly investigated to ensure they aren't in fact merle.  If in doubt - DNA test is advisable.

I had an argument once with someone who was convinced that merle was recessive and could be 'carried'. They had bred a litter where both parents were black and white, and yet had produced a merle puppy. Unfortunately this breeder didn't know the difference between merling and ticking - what they had actually bred was a black and white puppy with very heavy ticking (which is a completely separate gene entirely)!!!

> now KC are refusing to register sable merle pups

Sorry for taking this thread even further off topic, but if the KC are happy to not register sable to merle matings because of the health concerns,why are they refusing to ban merl beardies? Although I don't have beardies I was reading one of the dog papers the other week and it seems the KC want to allow merle beardies even though the breed clubs don't want them? If a breed has never had merle than it seems very odd that the KC would in effect introduce a colour wuth possible health problems.

Why should they ban merle beardies?  There's always been merle beardies and no reason to ban the gene - just to avoid it being 'hidden'.  No problem with the merle gene itself... why ban it?  What health problems are you referring to?

>There's always been merle beardies

No, according to the breed clubs there have never been merle beardies.

Press release

They don't like them maybe, but of course there have always been merle beardies - otherwise why worry about a colour which doesn't exist???? Like other 'collies' the merle gene is there..... seen more in working beardies these days, but there all the same :-)

> according to the breed clubs there have never been merle beardies.
>
>

I beleive that was refuted recently in old KC records.

Not according to the reply letter in this week's DW; apparently the only line with a couple died out and no descendents are traceable.

>but of course there have always been merle beardies

Why 'of course'?

>otherwise why worry about a colour which doesn't exist???

Because it might just show evidence of cross-breeding.

I think the argument/objection is that the Merle comes from mixing out with the bearded collie gene pool.

No, that happened before 'beardies' were 'beardies' ... there are pure bred beardies carrying the merle gene, which is why the KC want to accept them, there's a big hoo hah but no cross breeding involved, just the breed having the range of genes, including merle.

Odd that there haven't been any registered though.

well if the KC don't allow them to be they have to be registered as something else.....

Non-standard colours have until recently been allowed to be registered as such. For instance in my breed the only standard colours are black or liver spotting, but lemons and oranges exist and have been registered in the past. If merle existed in beardies it would surely have been registered as such.

>My bitch is from Canen lines and I wanted a dog that included Canen Pip me to Comebye

:-)  :-)  :-)

Smiled when I read your post!  My red/white boy is exactly that!  Very, very biddable.  Glad someone else has the same taste!

Except that I realised I had a brain fart and got the wrong name - It's Sadghyl Pip not Canen lol
I was on my way to the hospital when I realised and too late to edit when I got home :)
My girl Coral
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q132/Sassinak_photos/PICT0001-3.jpg

I knew who you meant, he did belong to Shirley Bell.

Yes,,,,   that is who I thought you meant too!

Your bitch is lovely.

Ooh the light eye colour really puts me off the merles and dilute colours.  Just as well tastes vary.

>Just as well tastes vary

:-)  I totally agree Barbara, it would be awful if we all liked the same (how boring)

I adore my boys pale amber eye colour (he's not merle, but red merle bred)

I think it's great that we have so much to choose from, that there is something for every taste.

Indeed, my Ski is a gorgeous dark blue tri merle and has gorgeous (well I think) eyes, they stayed blue until he was getting on for 6 months then changed to a lovely amber colour.  Evidently tri merles are rarely blue - his litter brother (red merle) has lovely blue eyes. It'll be interesting to see what colour my new pup's eyes will be - he's blue and white.  Can't wait to bring him home in a few weeks..... although not sure about a long North Sea crossing in January, but better than driving so much further.... gulp!

Did you find out what 'possible health problems' are thought by the beardie people to be associated with the merle gene?  I've heard all sorts of rumours that some people are deafness, but that's clearly not true unless you put 2 merles together, they can be deaf but that's not genetic deafness, just bad breeding :-(

I get stooped buy  people who assume mine are Huskies and get asked if they have Blue eyes.  Mine have lovely dark brown eyes. 

I personally find light eyes especially Blue in a dog creepy and disconcerting.

it's the Beauty of Pedigree dogs plenty of choice.

My blue merle bitch has really startling pale blue eyes and I have been told before now that she must be husky cross, because they are the only dog with that colour of eye lol

I too find blue or grey eyes disconcerting particularly if the other is flecked amber, prefer dark eye either brown or amber but like you find the blue disquieting and yellow horrid. Still as you say there may be those who would not tolerate a dark eye in their dogs and to a large extent it is what we are used to, for me the dark eye is soft and the light hard but then again I like my dogs to have black noses for no other reason than that is what I like.

>they can be deaf but that's not genetic deafness, just bad breeding :-(

I'm afraid you're not correct in that belief. The AHT confirms that "Deafness has also been reported to be associated with the gene that causes the merle coat colour, for example in the Border Collie, Australian Shepherd, Dappled Dachshund or Old English Sheepdog. Absence of pigment in one or both irises resulting in blue eye colouration may also be present in merle dogs, as illustrated in figure 1, a blue merle Border Collie with two blue eyes."

Even if blue eyes were accepted in the dalmatian standard (as they are in the US where the incidence of hereditary deafness is higher than the UK) I'd avoid them because I find they give a very hard expression.

Odd then that deafness in border collies occurs more frequently in non merle dogs than merle dogs then isn't it.  The only deafness normally associated with merle border collies is when the gene is doubled - not something to be recommended.  Non merle collies can also have blue eyes.

>Odd then that deafness in border collies occurs more frequently in non merle dogs than merle dogs then isn't it.

Not really. As hereditary deafness occurs in brown-eyed dogs of other breeds it's not surprising that it occurs in brown-eyed border collies of other colours too. They're a breed that really should be BAER tested as puppies, and unilaterals (who give the outward appearance of having normal hearing) only mated to bilateral-hearing individuals, even though that itself still doubles the risk of deafness.

My point of course is that deafness (apart from putting two merles together) isn't necessarily associated with the merle gene.  It is, however, associated although not exclusively with a large percentage of white coat colouring.  In litters with deafness that I've known they've been the whiter pups that have been affected.  Deafness is an issue in collies and the shortage of BAER testing places is also an issue.

>the shortage of BAER testing places is also an issue.

Absolutely - breeders often have journeys of several hours with young puppies to get them tested. Not ideal, but so very important.

A friend used to breed Border collies and I remember her travelling hours to BAER test month old pups. 

She had bred one Unilateral deaf pup with half blue eye, he was Black and White with half of one side of his face white..