My friend has just come back from the vets, in the early hours. The vet was already at the surgery, operating on a dog, who had chewed bones, which had impacted in his gut. The owner had recently put him onto a BARF diet! Just as a warning, perhaps BARF is not quite what it is claimed to be.
Bec

Hi Bec,

Sorry to hear about the dog,

Not going to debate about this at all but it is still unlikely it was the bones as they are so soft and crumbly uncocked, my wee westies chomp them down no problem.

Is it possible the dog got a cooked bone? I am sure our last bowel problem with bones on the board turned out to be a bone got from the trash.

Hope the dog is fine, please let us know.

Pam

Perhaps, as she had only just began that diet, she did too much at once, or even give the dog the "wrong" bones, easily done. Glad her dog is ok.
Dawn.

The vet said that they have to continually tell people not to feed this diet as they have had a lot of problems. I've heard of dogs choking on wings and necks independently of this too. If feeding the 'wrong bones' is that easy to do to cause such a problem then it should be something to be avoided. At least I can honestly say the diet I feed my dogs wouldn't result in such a drastic measure having to be carried out.
Bec

I had one bitch impact when she ate a whole shin bone over a few days (it was her Christmas present) and her grandson does so on rubber (balls, kongs etc) twice so far so now he never gets anything that he can play with and chew.

I have heard of dogs choking on hide chews

One of my "puppies" was chasing a stick and it upended into his undercarriage necessitating many operations from his rib cage back to his having to be castrated because of splinters

I have heard of dogs getting those 5" chews and swallowing them whole then trying to bring them back and they go up their windpipe area in throat pierce holes

Almost anything a dog eats/plays with can be dangerous and I would want to know exactly what had been fed to the "impacted dog" over a few days at least before I started to query feeding raw. Hope it recovers okay

Christine

Yet the food you feed was given to me by the manufacturers (to give an opinion) when they first introduced it, thats dog, cat and Ferret food and I can HONESTLY say that it was so packed with feathers, I could have stuffed a duvet !! In my opinion (and many vets) feeding dry food can be a direct contributor to bloat in large dogs, this in itself could be drastic.
Dawn.

First of all I would love to see the evidence you have to back up such a claim. Secondly I have fed Arden Grange since it was introduced and have NEVER had a bag full of feathers. You clearly have been VERY misinformed. I can't wait to see your evidence look forward to it.
Bec

I have only fed Arden Grange now for the past four years, and never ever have found anything looking like feathers or other foreign matter, jsut the kibble!

I helped Dawn pick the feathers out to take to LKA and in a couple of handfuls of the kibble we had a plastic money bag full of feathers. We were asked to try the cat food and at the same time Dawn was asked to try the ferret one. Both full of feathers.

oh snap dawn!!!!!!!:) but then im not an agent for them :rolleyes:

If your happy feeding raw feed raw.
If your happy feeding dry feed dry.
If your happy feeding tinned feed tinned.
I could go on and on and on but I won't.
Do what your happy doing can't see why everyone has to argue over the best way to feed......

Karen

Here here Karen,

Pam

Well said Karen. I feed mine some raw minced food and some commercial, only cos they are fussy and like a varied diet, I have one that would live on curry or spaggetti bolognese given half a chance !!!!! I won't feed chicken bones for my own personal reasons, but if it works for others then no problem. Ingrid

Well I cant say anything about Arden Grange as you dont get it in Ireland . I have gone from complete food to raw
, unless I run out of meat and bones,
I do what I see fit for my dogs and I have no problems with anyone else who feeds complete .
Each to their own and dont knock it till you tried it .
What I have a problem with is those who sell complete slagging off natural diet so as to keep complete the best option.
Mari

Yes Bec, & the vets continually receive commision for selling complete foods, that are continually having supplements added to these already *complete foods*! If they are so complete & perfect why are they continually adding & perfecting their already perfect food. I too have heard of lots of dogs having allergies & dental prbs due to them & at least I can honestly say that my dogs have never had so few probs & been in such good condition since they have been eating raw foods.
And being honest Bec, you are doing nothing but scaremongering !!!!!!!
Christine, Spain.

Agreed Christine.

Bec, I suggest you get in touch with Arden Grange and ask them about the complaints they have had (if they will tell you!) You can ask them if you like about the bag of feathers I took to them at LKA champ show a few years ago, which they said they would have investigated as to why so many got there!! this was in the cat and ferret food as well as 2 types of dog food! Up until recently feathers have been put down as "protein" in several so-called "premium" dog foods, Arden Grange could have been one of them.

My mother said to me recently, years ago dogs were fed scraps of meat, bread and oxo and meat and offal from the butchers as well as anything else that was going at the time. Many were out all day, roaming in large groups, yet, no fighting, no attacking kids, no problem!!! the most significant thing we have done for dogs is produce manufactured dog food and breed and sculpt dogs to please us. In my opinion the very least we can do is feed them properly, now I don't mind what anyone feeds their dogs, its their choice, but to say a barf diet causes drastic problems is nonsense.
Dawn.

I managed to feed a raw diet for a year, and can say that the dogs looked very good on it, especially the teeth, and the younger bitch who had been picky enjoyed her food as it was always varied, but I did have to hand feed her the pulped veg mixed with some mninced chicken!

I had to stop when meat on the bone was banned, and my local butcher's supply of bones dried up. I found the supplers of the Raw whad a minimum amount that they could deliver, and I can only squeeze 25 pounds of dog stuff in my freezer.

That is wehn I went onto Arden Grange, as I was looking for a food with the highest proportion of animal ingredients, and must say they have maintained the condition on it.

When I have a nursing bitch and puppies I do feed one out of the 4 meals a day as raw food, using chicken/Tripe veggies etc! Unfortunately being able to only store small amounts I do pay through the nose for it!

Sorry Bec,

But I do agree with the majority here.
I'm not taking sides but I know that Sonny has been a different dog on raw food. I will be honest, I do struggle with the chicken carcasses as the bones in them do seem to be quite sharp but I have given one to Sonny which he chewed and chomped down really well.
There will always be the dog(s) that have an accident with a bone but I compare it with the dogs on steroids for colitis, bad skin, etc. etc. There is a risk with every kind of food that the dogs eat. I've seen vet programmes where the vets have had to operate to remove an impacted rawhide chew!
The dog had bitten the end off it and swallowed it! At least with bones, most of the time they can't do that. I will be getting a grinder for my chicken carcasses but Sonny will continue to enjoy his chicken wings, etc.
I hope the dog continues to do well.

Ruth

I have spoken to Arden Grange on many occasions concerning their products, and indeed this 'problem'. They have been extremely honest with me.
Yes the 'chicken meal' in some products is basically ground feathers and other bits (beaks, feet etc) however Arden Grange use Fresh Chicken in their 'premium' range and chicken meat based chicken meal in their 'classic' range. All their meat is fit for human consumption. When working with fresh chicken you will get bits of feathers, you even get bits of feathers in the chickens you buy from the supermarket for yourself. However, as I've said before having fed Arden Grange for 6 years it is not a problem I have come across so can hardly be a major problem. Do all those on this board pull out the remaining feather bits from their chicken wings before feeding it to their dogs?
By the way I'm not an Arden Grange agent but they have been very good to me over the years and my dogs love all their food in both ranges.
Bec

I find that interesting, so it's fresh chicken rubbish not stale chicken rubbish! Dont think i'll bother about feeding my dogs that then!

John :rolleyes:

Strange that such a good food resulted in a string recently of people who's dogs (including your own) all lost weight and condition for no apparant reason. I could accept a few feathers, as I am sure anyone would, but NOT this amount.

However the thread is that of barf (in your opinion) not being all that it is cracked up to be, you speak of colitis in your Boxer, one of my Borders had this, so I know how nasty for the dog this can be, he too tried Arden Grange for months, and I tried Eukanuba, James Wellbeloved and several other foods all over a period of time, all to no avail. Part of the problem with feeding so called "premium" diets is that they eat such a microscopic amount it just doesn't feed them properly, it might give them enough protein, minerals etc.. but the dog still feels hungry, this is one of the reasons I changed to barf. Within 4 days my dog was no longer having stomach ache, he could eat an amount that was relative to his size, he felt satisfied, he had no more upset tummies or bouts of gastric inflammation. The foods I had avoided like Beef etc.. he ate with relish and suffered NO ill effects, so why did these premium foods interfere with his system so much. Probably because they are packed full of additives, colourings, preservatives, e numbers etc.. all of which our dogs can do without.

As I said people make their own minds up as to what they feed their dogs, I totally agee with that, no one should be "bullied" into feeding something they do not feel comfortable with, whether it be for convienience or cost etc.. they feed whatever they like.
Dawn.

Firstly Christine when has any dog food manufacturer claimed their product is 'perfect'? Surely the fact that they are trying to improve their product should be applauded? My dogs have don't have problems either. Near enough resolved my Boxers colitis problems.
If you believe that reporting facts is scaremongering than so be it but I believe people should know both the pros and cons of all feeding methods (or chews, toys etc) then they can make up their own mind. The thing that I get fed up with (and someone on this thread has said it again) is that if you don't feed BARF you don't feed properly.
However, as far as I'm concerend unless you are feeding all organic and freerange foods you're basically feeding what I'm feeding just in a different form. Exactly what do you think goes into rearing chickens intensively? You think they aer all raised 'naturally'?
Bec

Bec, complete balanced diet is what they tell us. That to me means nothing else is required. When 3/6/9mths down the line a new improved one comes out then I have to start questioning when exactly will it be right. So maybe I shouldn`t have used the word perfect & will now use the word completely balanced, or new improved completely balanced or even new advanced completely balanced, take your pick! And no, why should I applaud them for trying to improve it? It should be correct before I feed it to my dogs., or was I in fact letting my dogs be used as free giunea pigs for the manufactures to get right? Lets face it, they owe it to me & my dogs to do just thst.
As to you reporting facts Bec, you are not! What you are saying is hearsay. Unless the vet has the bones analysed & comes out & says so himself there is no proof of what you are repeating is true or a fact!
I also believe very much in people knowing the pros & cons of all things & being able to make educated decisions & not being frightened off something by rumours & half truths.
Christine, Spain.

or even "now cleans teeth" when it is almost certainly the "complete" feeds that are the cause of most of the dental problems in the first place!

Kerioak

Or how about the fact that some additives in complete foods are known to cause liver/kidney complaints, so the pet food companies produce a food to counteract the problem their products caused in the frst place!! and then have the cheek to charge you 3 times the price and make it only available through your vet !!!
Dawn.

well if you believe in telling all sides -why question a poster that stated she had feathers and ask her to prove it??? when you tell us how wonderful arden grange is-you forget to mention the many who found LARGE ammounts of feathers in the bags of kibble, touch one sided dont you think,

Hi Bec,

Everyone debates this back and forth. I agree each to their own.

I personally am not happy to feed most of the comercial stuff and my vet is very pro barf. This suits me.

I think there is risks with both.

I believe the wrong bones difference mentioned is the difference between Cooked and uncooked and this is easy to tell the difference.

I have told this story so many times but My boxer bitch was throwing her food up after she ate it Science plan, ( even the light one from the vets) she was not ill Ill but after she was fed she would go out side and bring it back up.

I spent a fortune at the vet with no solution, I was adviced to try Raw/Barf by another vet and I did, she stopped being sick within 4 or 5 days and was never sick again.

I do not like the fact the most dogs foods for sale are not fit for Human consumption.

BFN

Pam

HI Pam,

We switched Sonny over because he reacted so badly to Hill's, Pedigree,and any other commercial food that we tried. The only food that didn't upset him was chicken and rice!
So, after reading a lot here about raw feeding we changed.
If there was a commercial food that Sonny had done as well on, we probablly wouldn't have but I haven't found one yet to compare.

Ruth

I do not like the fact the most dogs foods for sale are not fit for Human consumption

I didn't know that Pam - it's just confirmed my feelings that changing Hollly onto a BARF diet is the best thing for her. Lola (the pup) will be coming to us fed on tripe and biscuit so it makes sense to put Holly onto raw food as well, rather than changing Lola onto kibble.

I'm very impressed with the AMP range of products and really like the fact that it is what is says it is - chicken pieces are really chickens chopped up, without anything else added to it.

All fruit/veg that the girls have will be bought from the market and will be bought in addition to what we normally buy for ourselves.

I was talking to my vet about the risks of a BARF diet and he said that he has more problems with dogs eating kibble and having rawhide chews than he does with those dogs fed on raw food.

Fiona
x x x

Hi Fiona,

But the amp stuff also isn't fit for human consumption.. if you want to use that argument then you have to be prepared to feed your dogs on supermarket or butcher bought meat...

Alex

PS. think i missed that you were getting another pup, congratulations! What breed, colour?

AMP isn't 'fit for human consumption' because of the way it's prepared - there's nothing wrong with the food itself, at least that's what I've been told.

We're getting one of Philippas puppies (black and white working bearded collie) in 3wks time. You'll have to come round and see her, seeing as you're just up the road :)

Fiona
x x x

I am lead to believe the reason the AMP stuff is not fit for Human comsumption is only because of the raw ingredients and bone.

Yes bone is not fit for humans but that is because we can't chew it and nothing else.

I read a report a while back about how they make some dog food taste good enough to eat and how they do it is spray it with pigs fat as with out the flavouring the dogs won't eat it. ( Well that is what I read)

This as usual could be debated back and forth. I am happy for everyone if they are happy with whatever they feed their dogs.

Pam

I am trying AMP and Nature Diet/Menu (taking it easy at moment because of Molly's throat problem so bit worried about actual bones and they seem to like the Nature Diet food so will try the AMP next week. BUT can I ask are you telling me that Arden Grange is a dried complete food, sold in a bag like the others, and when you open the bag there are FEATHERS in amongst the dried bits. Or have I got it wrong and it is a different sort of food? And cant dogs choke on feathers - I am sure Molly would/could.

Thanks Gina

PS this isnt to any one in particular just any one who can answer me LOL

If dogs were eating whole birds then they would eat the feathers as well - mine love it when the geese are moulting as they eat the bit that has contained the blood and goes into the bird. However, these "quills" are not digested and come out as they went in.

Christine

Do you know, Christine, if Arden Grange is what I thought it was though. No argument about the food as I have no knowledge of it just wondering if what I thought it was, was correct? I must admit though that I think feathers would make Molly choke as she has a bit of a choking problem that is being sorted at the moment so I would worry about feathers.
Ta Gina

Hi all, think most of you know I agree with whats been said re raw diets & I`m not a fan of complete :). Bec started this thread on impacted bones & how she was told of a vet always having to warn people of the dangers of them & when we come back & put things into perspective she doesn`t come back with anything else to refute us. I have had experience of Bec doing this before on other threads, as if she wants to inflame matters instead of discussing the pros & cons rationally.
So can I say that almost anything can impact in dogs guts. I had a dog swallow a sock causing his intestine to intersuss?? sorry can`t spell it! :) and needing major surgery. Had another dog swallow one of the individual little plastic containers used in cafes for butter or jam, embedded in her stomach, caused loads of ulceration & again needing major surgery. Had another one chew a sock & it passed thru the other end no problem. We have all heard of the hide chews impacting, causing choking etc. There are dangers in everything! We all try to do our best which is all we can do :)
The way I look at complete/tinned/ dry foods is that they are processed foods, that is a fact. If we are to believe the scientists, doctors, nutritionalists etc, a lifetime of eating them are the cause of most of the ill health in the human population. So how can it be good for any animal to live a lifetime on it?
Christine, Spain.

Christine, I only put down a statement of FACT! And I would love to see your other 'experiences' of me trying to inflame things. Seems like I'm not entitled to my opinion on matters especially when they don't comply with yours. I agree dogs can have problems with many things that they chew and many people on this board have discussed such things here but mention anything against the BARF diet and you are accused of trying to inflame.
Bec

Read your back posts Bec!! Have no intention of debating your meaning of fact, but your statement is hearsay NOT fact. It is the manner of your post & you basing that comment on someone who`s vet told her about someone elses dog about the dangers of raw! That is not an informed judgement or even an opinion based on personal experience, that entitles you to say *seems it`s not all it`s cracked up to be*. THAT is what I have criticised.
Christine, Spain.

That would appear to be the case Gina, but |I have never found any in my bags, and it was the food with the higest meat content I could find that was British made. Would love to go the Raw route but it is impractical for me, being a non driver I cannot collect from the AMP depot in Bristol, and they won't deliver small amounts.

Going the local butcher way I would be paying more than for what we eat!

Thanks Brainless that is what I was after - curiosity okay now :)
Luckily with my two little uns I dont need to buy much each week but will have to feed Molly some sort of processed food and boiled fresh chicken/meat until I know her throat is okay for raw.
Gina

Gina,

The AMP minced chicken is whole chicken that's been minced so it contains the bones as well - only ground up so it shouldn't upset Mollys throat at all.

Do you have a Focus DIY shop near you? If so they sell the frozen AMP foods in their pet department so it might be worth buying a bag from there to try the dogs on before you pay for a large delivery from AMP.

HTH,

Fiona
x x x

Hiya Fi. I didnt know Focus DIY petstores did AMP ! I had such trouble sourcing feed when I tried BARF that I gave up. thanks for that, will have to have a nosey! Julie:)

Hi Julie,

According to the head office any store with a pet department sells AMP products - they also sell the precooked sealed Natures Menu food as well.

They don't sell the whole range but enough to get a feel for the type of food - only a few pennies more expensive than AMP as well :)

Fiona
x x x

this may be me being a bit thick or not reading post proporly . . . but what is amp ???
scatty

Anglian Meat Products :)

Have a look at their website for some more info on what we're talking about :)

Fiona
x x x

HI Guys please note that Prize Choice and AMP are the smae company, just incase you get confused at the pet shop some products have one heading and other have the other but both the same.

Pam

Hi Fiona and all,

I was just about to tell you they sell both types.

My preference is the raw frozen bags but some I know use the other. I keep a big bag of Prizechoice/AMP tripe in my freezer all the time as it deforsts easy and it is back up.

Pam

Pam - do you mind me asking, how much does it work out to feed each of your dogs individually, say per week, using AMP/prize choice feed, and do you still put in a plain mixer with yours??? Julie:)

Hi Julie,

Oh Gosh ,

I have to say I actually feed Barf/Raw made myself mostly depending on how you look at it so I feed mine tripe, chicken, fish, beef veggies, fruit etc but I keep the amp products for when I am a little short on time or forgot to pick something up.

What I can say is that one block of prizechoice food is around 50-60p and for a small dog and that is a days feeding. You can buy the bigger bags which can go in a freezer which would be a little cheaper.

I don't use mixer at all.

For my own diet I don't find it expensive at all but I may be guilty of not really counting.

I try to buy most of my stuff from the butcher and he gives me chicken carcasses for 5p a kilo can't get cheaper than that.

Veggies and fruit on top of that, and some organ meat but I buy with my own food so it seems nothing in the big picture, I pick up a lot of stuff at the supermarket on a sunday at end of day.

Another thing I will say is that because I feed my 2 dogs and my cat the same food now I don't have to buy different products I just get all of their food with ours.

We eat steamed veggies every other night ourselve so I make more and mash for the animals etc.

If you are ever interested in a book I know one that is quite cheap and really is helpful for doing your own natural dinner.

You would laugh in my house when I open the fridge the cat and dogs coming running for a chicken wing and the 3 happily munch away together on them.

BFN Pam

Hi Fiona

I have got some AMP from Pets at Home in their freezer. Only about 56p a packet for the chicken I think? That is enough for Barney for ages so very cheap. They have other meats too but will try this one first. Still a bit hesitant about Molly at the moment cos of the bones in case a bit isnt ground enough!! :) But she likes fresh trout/chicken etc (cooked) so I think I might keep her on this plus nature menu until I know more about her condition, although hopefully it doesnt seem to be too bad - fingers crossed

Gina x