> I dare say there are instances where violence towards people does not mean violence towards animals (say, if the violence was as a result of bullying or abuse suffered themselves) but generally, I agree with you on that as well.

I'd be thinking along the lines of preventing violent people using dogs as weapons but I think it is a academic point because, particularly in the present economic climic, I doubt any such controls would be introduced on the basis of the huge adminstration and policing costs.

> If I had a breed which was powerful with strong guarding traits you can bet your life that 80% would go up to 95% the trouble begins and ends in who is breeding and everything leads on from there on in.
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I have close ties with the Doberman breed as one of my friends who is a close neighbour has been in the breed and I have close contact with her dogs.

She has sadly had two with unacceptable character traits, both well bred, but you get the odd rotten apple (an unfortunate combination of characteristics), one is manageable, the bitch shows intense ear aggression when out, and almost seems to not know what she is doing.  she is walked muzzled and literally foams at the mouth when she sees another dog or person, at home she is absolutely sound and fine with other dogs that are brought there, yet will react to them outside the home, it is almost as if she has agoraphobia.  The behaviours started when she had her first season and just started to get worse as she matured (she had been successfully shown until then) and had further seasons, spaying had no positive effect.  She is now 9 years old and absolutely the soppiest dog you could meet when you go to the house.

The other a male had excessively high drive and despite expert handling would try to dominate every person he met and would see any confident person as a challenge and react negatively.  One day without any provocation he knocked down her toddler son as he walked past and stood over growling.  Thankfully the child stayed absolutely still and the owner was able to call him off, but it was decided he was not going to be safe as a family dog and he was Put to sleep. The whole incident lasted seconds, with the owner/mother supervising.  He was around 3 years old.

She had never ever bred but has had around 8 of the breed over the years with all but those two with excellent people and dog family friendly characters.  As they worked I used to have a large part in the early socialisation of the dogs.

I would be terrified to breed if I was in the breed, not only do they have large litters, but if the new owners get it wrong it so often can lead to the dog needing to be Put To Sleep, and so often the majority of people wanting one shouldn't have one, so home vetting must be even more of a nightmare.

Not much point us continuing to reply to each other, Jeangenie, we are poles apart but obviously happy with what we each do. Shall we leave it at that?

Probably best - though I think we can agree that we both want to see people with happy, relaxed dogs in all situations. :-) We just disagree with how best to do this.

I still believe that ringcraft teaches dogs how to behave; conventional training classes teach owners how to get their dogs to do things.

So reading between the lines, what I get is that current obedience doesn't live up to what owners need. It's maybe a little too command based, yet ringcraft doesn't supply the necessary command structure.

So an obedience based class that allows an interaction as well. So a more relaxed obedience class where owners as well as dogs are more socially interactive? A bit similar to the trick training course I run, which seems very popular. We teach commands but with a spin and a good chit chat is fully encouraged and everyone cheers when a dog gets a trick right!! And of course they get to show off too!!

The atomsphere seems less strained than in the bronze groups or puppy where owners seem nervous at first. Don't know why that would be maybe owners just like the lack of pressure. We aren't on a time limit for a test or the end of the course, we are teaching someofthe same aspects of KC tests just under the spin of trick training. Hmmmm food for thought...............

Personally I think both Obedience classes and Ring craft compliment each other because of the totally differing emphasis/atmosphere.

I would always advice attending both on seperate days.

Hi HHGirl

I teach tricks in my class and there's no pressurised atmosphere as (a) the puppy class exercises are informally assessed over the seven week period of the course, or for as long as it takes the pup to achieve them. The KC specifically states that there is to be no formal exam and the owners know from the start that there is no 'test' night so they have no pressure. And (b) The Bronze/Silver/Gold awards are there for anyone who wants to work towards them. The class members decide when they want to be assessed and it is usually quite a few months into their training before we even discuss the Bronze and whether they would like to do it. No one has ever failed any of the Good Cits awards at my club and I have been running classes every single week (incl Christmas, Summer hols etc) for 11 years so I guess that speaks for itself. I have received quite a few mails privately from people saying they wish they could come to my club after reading this thread. I know that a lot of dog clubs are still quite old-fashioned which is a shame as training is so much fun and I think people who train their dogs have an extra special bond with their dogs because of it.