I can see on fb that a story has been printed as to why. I don't have subscription to dogworld for the story.
Can someone either let me know on here or pm me, ta x

Dog World Newspaper
AKITA NEXT TOP MODEL STRIPPED OF AWARDS BY KC
THE AKITA who won the group at Crufts in 2010 has been stripped of her awards. She is Ch Ruthdales Next Top Model, bred and co-owned by Matthew Bostock and Janet Armstrong and co-owned by them with Natalia Kovriguina of Belarus. Read more in this week's Dog World Newspaper - http://www.dogworld.co.uk/digitaledition

No online sub to DW :( and there's NOTHING in OD that I can see! I'm curious as well.

Levy, I don't have subs so can't read the online version.

Ive been told breach of natural confirmation, but not stated as to what they did to the dog.

It says the awards removed for operation altering confirmation but does not disclose what this is

You can read the news stories and features without a subscription, they may not update until tomorrow or Friday..

Have read the online article, it merely states which Regulation has been broken (any act or operation etc etc) but gives no further explaination. Will not be formally published until January Kennel Gazette

an operation on the eyes apparently - entropion I've just found out

If a dog is 'altered' but it is declared to the KC, can it still compete.  I know that spayed bitches can, if declared, but perhaps this is a different situation in that it doesn't cosmetically change them...

> perhaps this is a different situation in that it doesn't cosmetically change them...

If PennyGC is correct and it was entropion, then that's surgical alteration to correct a genetic fault.

If a dog is 'altered' but it is declared to the KC, can it still compete.

Only if it is given permission so to do. All operations and surgical procedures should be reported and the KC will either give permission or they wont. In general procedures to alter or correct genetic faults are not allowed where as those to correct a condition caused by an accident are. It is woolly round the edges though as some conditions (like hernia) are thought by some to be genetic and by others accidental.

I believe my source is correct

Tell me about it, my pup injured his knee (patella) which was repaired by surgery and rest and thinking it was the right thing to do I asked for permission to show. It was refused even with letters from Vets and witness statements to say it was an accident. If I had kept quiet no one would have known.
Makes you wonder how this was discovered, sour grapes perhaps?

It was refused even with letters from Vets

Did you see the vets letter, they are inclined to say things that may lead the committee to think that it was genetic. Something like the fact that a small grove allowed the tendon to slip causing damage when your dog had a accident. If something like that was said then it may be thought that although the pup had an accident it was a genetic fault that caused the damage to occur. Hard decision and probably one that the vet did not intend to suggest but they will write what they see and think and the committee will make their own decision from what they are told.

Makes you wonder how this was discovered, sour grapes perhaps?

I'm sure NONE of us would like to see dogs be able to win awards if they have had to have surgery to enable them to do so.....especially not genetic ones where the temptation to breed from a top winning dog/bitch would be great. We don't want breeders to think "It doesn't matter if the pups are born affected with this or that, we can fix it with surgery and still show them".
It's not sour grapes, it's  all about responsible breeding.

I did see the Vets letters and they both concluded that this was most likely to have been caused by accident rather than inherited. The strangest thing about my appeal was that I asked if I could continue showing they (the KC) could put some kind of breeding restriction on the dog if they were so minded as to think it was an inherited condition that had led to his injury. They came back to say it was the repair that was stopping him showing as he now had an advantage over other dogs that had not been 'surgically enhanced' and I could do any other dicipline with him and breed from him.

Makes you wonder how this was discovered, sour grapes perhaps?


I am curious to know how they found out, i recently had to insist my vet took down my bitches pedigree details so im not sure how the C-section thing will be policed.

> i recently had to insist my vet took down my bitches pedigree details so im not sure how the C-section thing will be policed.

I have had same issue over the years.  I insist they have the dogs registered names.  When I ask them how else will they be able to link up any Health test results with the right dog they just shrug and don't seem interested.

This is why I also feel strongly that no dog should e labelled as of a breed unless it has supporting paperwork if the vets are to start monitoring and collating breed specific health issues.

Imagine all the Staffie crosses that have lord knows what other additional breeds in their make up, and their health problems are put down to being breed specific????

Many of us use more than one vet practise, ass the out of hours practises.

Certainly someone wanting to dodge that rule could quite easily by using a different vet and giving a pet name.

Exactly, when i asked the one vet in my surgery that i thought would insist on knowing all the details even she was failry casual about the whole affari and said she only really needed to know if it was for hip scoring.
When i get their patellas checked ive also had to insist they check the micro number as they don't even want to do that.

Have to say I've found the general vets are clueless about health testing, how to go about it and who does it.  I've even mentioned so, though of course politely to the people who are looking into health issues on pedigrees and wanting vets to take control, I got a really nice e-mail back from them showing their interest in me saying that many vets do not really know what is needed for health tests etc.

I have to say at the surgery that I go to they are really interested in any testing I do and like to read up on it, even the nursing and office staff.

>Makes you wonder how this was discovered, sour grapes perhaps?

In this case i'd probably say that either they told someone who reported it, or it was found by a vet doing a check over of the dog, I do recall seeing dogs being checked when they won BOB at Crufts this year, maybe it was flagged up at a show by a vet or judge?

Who knows, either way my concern would be if they decided to breed from this bitch, lets hope the KC have put a stamp on this that no litter is to be registered from her and I hope the breeders do the right thing and get her spayed(as accidents do and can happen)

it said on facebook so must be true lol that her new owners took her to an eye specialist in russia (assuming this is where her owners reside) and they picked up on marks from the op. also according to posts on facebook the kc had been made aware prior to this including photographic evidence that this girl had had surgery but nothing was done about it at the time. don't know how true all this is but either way its a very sad situation.

Apparently the eye surgery is obvious in photographs that are on FB.  Crufts 2010, I believe? 
I contiued to show my 2 bitches after spaying without informing the KC as it was easier.  Not only can you be refused but you need to have the letter with you at every show incase you are asked to provide evidence.  Sometimes with things that are not herediary, it's best to keep things to yourself. 

>I contiued to show my 2 bitches after spaying without informing the KC as it was easier.  Not only can you be refused

Not so with spaying, I believe, because you only need to inform them, not get permission.

cracar i haven't seen pictures so can't comment and 2010 was the first time in a few years i didn't make crufts so wasn't ringside to see her in the flesh. my partner loved her from the start always saying if we where ever to have another akita it would be from that kennel, but as i much prefer their japanese cousins he'll never get his wish.

I contiued to show my 2 bitches after spaying without informing the KC as it was easier.  Not only can you be refused but you need to have the letter with you at every show incase you are asked to provide evidence.  Sometimes with things that are not herediary, it's best to keep things to yourself. 

That's a terrible attitude to take. Like JG says, you do NOT ask permission to show spayed bitches, you just inform the KC -no letter needed. As for surgery, you'd rather break the rules than have a photocopy of the letter in your show bag? I really don't see the problem. As the Akita case has illustrated, they would not disqualify your dog on the day if you didn't have the letter with you anyway.

And since the operation has it been shown by a professional handler at all, in breed classes or groups?

Yes, I agree. I informed the KC when my Yankee was neutered and kept the permission in my show bag. He was never a good show dog, always last in his class anyway, but I wanted to do things properly.

Why is it so terrible?  This was a long time ago(I no longer own the breed I used to show then) and I had no intentions of breeding from these bitches again and considering it was veteran classes (usually), I just didn't think it worth the hassle.  As soon as the girls were healed, the double coat covered any scarring.  I really don't see what the big deal is, Goldmali?  It's not like I was cheating anyone, I just didn't want to have to retire 2 girls who loved their outings or myself, who enjoyed the showring.  I didn't bother to find out the rules, I just was told by word of mouth to keep it to myself.
I, personally, would have a different attitude to herediary conditions being hidden and did state this in my post.
Edited to add: the bitch was handled by someone other than the owner.

Question:

If a dog like the one in this case has awards stripped from it what happens to the dogs getting for instance RCC's and RBOB under them, do they then take the awards?
I have seen dogs having had their placings taken away before, so like a 1st place in a class which could give them a stud book number or place at Crufts, what happens then, does the next placed dog take this or what? Do the rest of the class then move up a place?

> This was a long time ago(I no longer own the breed I used to show then) and I had no intentions of breeding from these bitches again

Even when I first showed now 23 years ago you could show neutered animals as long as they had registered offspring, and very shortly after it was changed to being able to show them with just informing the KC.

To be honest I agree with why the need to tell the KC? when they are automatically allowed to be shown.  I expect it applies more for the males as some confirmation of entirety prior to castration might be an issue.

Most people who don't tell the KC when their girls are spayed is to not have the letters neut on KC printed pedigrees, which is a bit ridiculous if they have been used for breeding.

I don't know why this idea persists re not being able to show neuters in the UK as it has not been so for a very long time.  One area where the KC are more progressive than many of their overseas counterparts.

I understand that the chap who bought the dog is an eye specialist... the couple are russian... I believe they paid an absolute fortune for the dog... with an eye problem :-(

If a dog like the one in this case has awards stripped from it what happens to the dogs getting for instance RCC's and RBOB under them, do they then take the awards?

Yes if an award is stripped from a dog then the  awarded animals move up place, if it is a CC then the RCC is awarded the CC if it is a class placing and the 1st place is stripped then the 2nd moves up a place & 3rd to 2nd and I believe Res to 3rd but no further awards are changed.

"I believe Res to 3rd but no further awards are changed."

Would they move Res to 3rd? That would be an assumption that the judge would have given the Res dog a 'Crufts Qualifying' place or Stud Book number in some cases?  Although having said that moving a dog from 2nd to 1st in particular classes may have the same effect (re: Stud Book numbers I mean)
Does that matter I wonder?
Sorry just thinking out loud! ;)

Not sure but have always thought that the reason it is called Reserve is because it is the last of the placings that may be moved, could be wrong though.

It is correct to adjust the placings after all they are placed where they are because the dog placed above them did so by fraud. so a dog being given a CC, stud book number etc. is entitled because that is where it would have been placed had the dog with a conformation correction had not been shown fraudulently.

Such a shame for all awards - can't imagine there's much satisfaction in gaining a CC this way - but particularly galling for the people stood behind that this includes a Crufts win, robbing others in the group and the breed of historical wins.

M.

> can't imagine there's much satisfaction in gaining a CC this way

I don't see why not when you were beaten by a dog that required surgery to obscure a serious fault.

>I don't see why not when you were beaten by a dog that required surgery to obscure a serious fault.

Perhaps I mean not as much satisfaction then - for a start you miss that fantastic feeling of being handed the CC, celebration on the day, then congratulations cards falling through your door and phone calls for days after. Plus, when all's said and done although you know the judge liked your dog a lot to give it the RCC, they didn't like it the most on the day.

Hopefully those who have stood behind her didn't need those CCs to make their dogs up on the days they got the RCCs.

M.

Before I read that the dog had gone abroad I was going to post to say " I bet it has already been sold abroad!" 

What I don't understand is if there are pictures on FB who is supplying them? Not good publicity for the kennel.

Re permission to show, I don't see what the fuss is about by applying to show a spayed bitch, better to play by the rules. I agree it is daft but if that's what it takes I was happy to comply, it all came back within 2 weeks. 

It isn't permission to show though (which may or may not be granted), it is simply that the kennel club should be informed, as it is a matter of policy that neutered animals can be shown.

I really don't see what the big deal is, Goldmali?

The big deal is that rules are rules, and we cannot pick and chose which to follow.

I didn't bother to find out the rules,

Doesn't every show entry form you sign (whether for real or electronically) state that you agree to follow the rules whether aware of them or not?

Most people who don't tell the KC when their girls are spayed is to not have the letters neut on KC printed pedigrees, which is a bit ridiculous if they have been used for breeding.

This doesn't appear happen any longer Brainless. I last bought a certified pedigree at Crufts this year and it did NOT state "neut" -and it was for a spayed bitch who I had informed the KC about, and got a letter back saying they'd received it.

> What I don't understand is if there are pictures on FB who is supplying them?

Where are these photos on FB?

You are right.  Rules are rules and I should've told the KC but I never.  Shot me down where I stand.  Lucky I never got loads of winnings with my veteran bitch in the crappy open shows that she loved to attend, that I would need to step down from.  All those people that came behind my old spayed bitch will be livid when they realise I pulled the wool over their eyes(or was that just her coat after the op?).  If I thought they felt so strongly about silly rules like these as you do, rest assured, I would've done the right thing and got my little letter.
Please do not miss the very heavy sarcasm in this post!!

My friend showed the photo to me but can't tag(must be locked somehow) as the photo did the rounds when the story broke.  Pretty sure it was crufts 2010? And zoom in on the bitch in question.

>If I thought they felt so strongly about silly rules like these as you do, rest assured, I would've done the right thing and got my little letter.

To be honest that comes across as rather pathetic. Which other rules would you consider it acceptable to ignore? The one about not showing an animal that's been in contact with an infectious disease - after all, it's not showing any symptoms, so who's going to know? (Apart from the people whose dogs catch the illness your dog is incubating; but of course they won't know who's to blame.)

> I really don't see what the big deal is, Goldmali?  It's not like I was cheating anyone, I just didn't want to have to retire 2 girls who loved their outings or myself, who enjoyed the showring.
> I didn't bother to find out the rules, I just was told by word of mouth to keep it to myself.

For other readers: I think the important message here is that it is important to know the rules (of any 'competition' you enter).  Whether you choose to abide by them is your call...

It's a mistake to rely on 'word of mouth' advice passed on - particularly when it proves to be incorrect, as it was in the above instance.  Ignorance is no defence

Considering I have a very ill child who I absolutely dread being near anyone carring any bug/virus as I know it's going to badly affect our family for the following few weeks, No, I wouldn't consider doing anything as stupid as that. 
You know, it was just one of those things that had never affected me as I had never neutered before(or after).  And I had mentioned it to my mentor at ringcraft who said "I wouldn't bother telling the KC as no-one does about that sort of op"  I suppose I should've looked into it more but I knew I wasn't in it to win it with the old dear, so who would really care/bother. 
I didn't break any other rule nor do I find it acceptable when you are talking 'proper' showing but for veteran classes at open show/companion show level, I think some of you have blown this out of proportion.  

At least I am beginning to understand about the 'witchhunters' are on here that I've heard so much about.  Somehow this topic has turned to be an attack against myself?  I don't understand.  Are you all so perfect? Have none of you ever broken the rules? And probably far worse ones than I ever did!

I think some of you have blown this out of proportion.

The point is that all rules have to be followed and you agree to it every time you make an entry. To sit on an internet forum and say you can chose to ignore any rule you think is silly -that's hardly giving people the right impression (of either shows or yourself), is it. Nobody has to show, it's everyone's choice whether to do it or not, and if you decide to do it, you agree to abide by the rules -whether aware of them or not. Whether we agree with the rules or not is totally irrelevant. I think it's utterly stupid that kids in the UK have to wear a school uniform, but rules are rules and so mine all went to school wearing just that. My personal opinion doesn't change a rule. Personally I will always rather be safe than sorry. I don't see why veteran classes at open shows would be less important -veterans can and do win BOB and get group placings (I know, as I have been showing veterans for years and my current one is still winning really well) and BOB and group placings count towards the ShCM at open shows. Companion shows on the other hand does not come into it at all as dogs don't even have to be registered to enter them and would not normally be entered under anything but a pet name anyway.