This happened on Sunday in our local park. The dog was frolicking about with all the others so I approached the owner - a girl of about 17 - and expressed my surprise as I thought these dogs basically made for the horizon if loose.  She told me, 'Well the woman at puppy class just said to treat it like any other dog so I do'.  It was a very young bitch which had just had its first season. 

Is this behaviour just a sign of immaturity; will the dog one day hear the call of the wild and belt off (potentially disastrously) on to the roads of Birmingham, leaving her naive young owner heartbroken and cursing the puppy class woman?  Or is it an exception to the Husky rule?

Any opinions?   

Does sound like immaturity on the girls part. She should take more responsibily for the actions of the dog. While frolicing around it may worry other people or change its behaviour towards other dogs not to mention take off after something that moves ie squirrel/bird etc.

I have to be careful with my young 8 mnth bitch (gundog), she is kept on a long 50ft line most of the time while in a local park (also in the birmingham area) which i now let trail on the floor and step on when needed. She will bolt for other dogs, people, birds, rabbits you name it and although she will return on the sound of the whistle she can get sudden onset of deafness, as they do.

Huskys are classed as a 'big dog' in many peoples opinion and can get pretty upset if they see one bounding up to them across the park esp if they have small children. The dog trainer definately gave her some bad advice by the sounds of things and you did the right thing by approaching her.

Sue

I suspect the "woman at the puppy class" had never had a husky at her class before! Single dogs have been known to be trusted off lead when youngsters, my eldest was. but wheh he got older (teenage years) we found he couldn't be trusted off lead at all. Even on lead he was known to try to chase ducks with me hanging on for dear life! Once we got a second one there was no way we could let either of them off. We tried once and it was the second most nerve wracking time ever. The MOST nerve wracking time was when the "escaped" or more likely were let out and they were missing for 24 hours berfore we got them back. Heaven forbid that this should hapen to this young bitch.

Lynn

>will the dog one day hear the call of the wild and belt off (potentially disastrously) on to the roads of Birmingham, leaving her naive young owner heartbroken and cursing the puppy class woman?<

Three words in answer to that - WITHOUT A DOUBT!

Sibes appear to be the new 'in' breed and I can't think of any breed less suitable for an inexperienced teenage owner.

.

I'm afraid I have to aggree - I have Shar Pei who are also not to be trusted off the lead and our youngest was great and very responsive off lead until he got to around 8 months when he started to develop a lot of independance.  Now at 10 months he is not allowed off the lead as he couldn't be trusted which we knew would happen! Luckily we have a large field backing our house which is pretty safe.  I think this will probably happen with the Sibe as well.

This puts me in mind of a useful anecdote I read once:

Lois Leonard  (American)owner/handler and trainer of Lojan's very special Sula says:
"you will never be able to trust a Siberian, ANY Siberian, off lead in an unfenced area.NEVER. its as simple as that"

Now the gravity of her words only come into context when you consider that Lojan's very special Sula had:
In 9 years of competition....
earned 248 qualifying scores in AKC obedience.
won 18 area specialty high in trials.
2 National speciality high in trials.
3 All Breed High in trials.
And OTCH (obedience trials Champion) !!

And with all that in mind Lois tells the story of how one day Sula ran across a road after another dog narrowly missing and thankfully not hit by Cars!

Its the most definative example I can think of, I truly cant understand why people still dont listen to the caution raised by those who have kept, worked and loved Sibes with great experience for many years. :(

Thanks to all that replied.  It's basically what I thought.  So sad.  Mind you, the owner's attitude initially was 'What's it got to do with you?' so I don't think she would be of a mind to take advice. Poor dog, poor kid and (potentially) poor traffic victims and witnesses.

(MannyG - why so uncharacteristically terse? That's not like you!)

:D at the msg for manny.

Yeah..*deep sigh* I guess its just another example of how we Humans have this  ridiculous "it'll never happen to me" denial mechanism even in the face of unsurmountable evidence! which if we'r all honest we've done to some degree or another I guess.
- not bothering with seatbelt because your 'only turning the car around'
- smokers!!
- its a nice day I know my horse well..I wont wear my hard hat...
(which reminds me did anyone see the 'extreme' (sic) Horse riders surfing on Richard and judy this week!!!???)

we can take risks for ourselves... but when it has the potential to affect others.. I just dont know why!!
(and Im a smoker so I cant really talk!! :( )

I agree, I have a siberian husky and we cant let him off the lead unless he is in a completely secure area. We tried with him thinking we could train him but he has such strong instincts that will suddenly kick in. He is great at obedience training and even competes in agility getting clear rounds (in indoor fenced in shows like agility addicts) but i would never trust him. He has tried to run off several times over the last couple of years with no warning. We luckily managed to get him eventually but we learnt our lesson very quickly and now he goes on an extrendable lead which he seems quite happy on. I have read lots of stories about people who have let their siberian husky off lead for years with no problems then one day suddenly their dog just ran off and got killed by a car.

I go to a training class where there are currently two husky's (they also do competitive obedience training) and they have been reared as 'any other breed'.  We also go on training walks where compatible dogs are let off lead together giving the opportunity to practice recalls from different types of distraction.  I'm no expert in the Husky breed :D  I have heard many many people say exactly what you are all saying now but I see these dogs off lead with our dogs (in a safe area of course) and they appear well behaved.  I cant help but think that all the chasing charachteristics previously mentioned seem to apply to just about every dog I meet in the park :rolleyes: and not just husky's.  Can there not be exceptions to the rule?  I was always told that my breed could not be let off but I have a reliable sighthound who loves her off lead exercise - I get great satisfaction seeing her run at full speed!
Sarah

Id love nothing more than watching my husky have a good run off the lead but i really couldnt trust him. It says more about them off the lead on the siberian husky club of great britain website:  www.siberianhuskyclub.com    Maybe some huskies are expection to the rule as always in some breeds - some just have completely different to normal characters! We thought we could train ours after training so many other dogs in the past - but we couldn't. He would often return on command and we even went several agility shows outside (where there are lots of dogs and things going on) where he competed with clear rounds and never ran off. Then another time he would just go! theres no stopping him - he switches off to all commands and just runs! I think the difference about huskies to other breeds is their very very strong instincts to run and also hunt. If you look at most husky breeders websites they will mention about never letting a husky free off leash unless the area is completely secure.

Thanks for the reply :)
Sarah

Thing is with huskies is that they run very fast, and usually in a straight line! By the time you realise you have a runaway, he will be out of earshot anyhow. At least with the sort of dog who will "wander" or circle, like my old BC would, you can try to grab them as they go past!

Lynn

very true!!  :D its awful the sense of dread i get when i see him start to run off at top speed.

this topic has appeared on a few occasions lately and we all have our own personal views on it

my pesonal view is as stated on my site

[ it is advisable to never let your Siberian Husky off leash they cannot be trusted to return,
could you justify taking the chance thinking yours will be different ]

also this was poted a few weeks ago and i think it helps to understand why they cant be trusted.....

quote from Jenny Manley ....................................................................................................................................

The reason why you cannot let a Siberian Husky run off lead is because the Siberian Husky was for hundreds if not thousands of years bred to pull a sled. The driver stood on a sled behind the team and drove the dog away from him with his voice, his dogs would never be ask to come to him. A dog that kept turning round in harnesss would not only slow the team down but would endanger the lives of the village people who relied on them to return from the hunting grounds with food and to do so at the quickest pace. Dogs that turn round, tangle lines, they frustrate the other dogs and fights can happen and delays and interuptions were not tolerated. A dog that did not go away from the drivers voice would not be included as a team member and would not get into a breeding program. These dogs are geneticaly programmed to run away from a voice.

Some Siberian Husky pups are great for a short time off lead they are still dependent on the owner but somewhere between 6 and 11 months they become "SLED DOGS" and sled dogs run away from a voice. No Siberian Husky is to be relied on off lead.

Its very sad when an owner of a pup that you have raised to the very best of your ability from planning a mating, studying bloodlines, vet care whilst pregnant, the whelping, the sleepless nights, the weaning and hoping the stress of finding a home that will give a special pup all the care it breed demands, to hear that it has been going off lead for some months and been so good but on that one occaision for no reason he ran off into the road and was killed by a car. I personally do not breed Siberian Huskies to die on roads that is why we tell people over and over and over again that Siberians must alway be kept on a lead.

The other point is they will hunt. Several Siberian huskies have been shot and killed by farmers even when in field with no livestock in them.

They are free sprits and owners of this breed have to respect it and unless anyone is willing to do this a Siberian Husky will not be the dog for them.

I only breed very few litters and of all the enquiries I have I make sure that potential owners know that this is a very independent breed they will only do what they want when they want to do it. Best described as a toddler crossed with a teenager and very much like a cat inside a dog. They dig craters in the lawn, they climb fences, they dig underneath fences they are escape artists, beautiful escape artists that do not return home once free. I hope by informing potential buyers of the pit-fall that they are able to make the best decision on owning a Siberian Husky, many do not book a puppy.

Why do people have Siberian Huskies? well its not to get to Crufts with an obiedience champion and its not to have guard dog its more of a change of life style where every one in the family has a to adapt It can be a constant challange and because of this the Siberian Husky is only suitable for a small number of dedicated owners. 

Jenny Manley Skimarque Siberian Huskies Est. 1973

Playing the devils advocate here, I have two questions -

1.  Sled dogs also need stop when the person on the sled commands it.  If the instinct to run is so strong, how can they possibly be trained to stop when running full speed with other pack members?

2.  How can people justify breeding and selling puppies that have such an inbred desire to run, to 'pet' homes, where they will be destined to a life on a lead.  This does not sound right to me.  Most dogs I know love their time off lead, but to deny that joy to a dog that has an uncontrollable urge to run, is cruel I think.  Does everyone who breeds Sibes, etc ensure that each owner will have access to secure ground or take them to rallies, etc?

Alexanders
Although i dont have a sibe i do have a malamute, so same principal applies ie no off lead.
I would just like to reply to your comment no 2. I suppose i would be considered a "pet" home, but one with knowledge. I fully researched into my breed and was well aware of the do's and donts of the breed. I do not compete in rallys and do not foresee any change in that. I also do not have access to a large secured fenced area for free running, but i do have an enclosed garden of reasonable size for playing in ( or digging lol )
Now reading that i probably look like a cruel owner but i'm not, as there other ways of excersicing my dog without it being at walking pace on a lead. I use a springer on my bike which allows kai to run at any pace. as does a rig or scooter. all of which can be used without the need to attend rallys.
I guess what im trying to say is a pet home does not neccesarily mean that a sibe/mal is destined to be on lead all the time :)

Janeandkai - you are obviously a very good owner and I would not consider you cruel.  I was just voicing my thoughts that Sibes, etc seemed like caged birds, unless with owners such as yourself.  By 'pet' owners I did not mean to generalise, but meant owners that did not exercise their dog in any way but on the lead - sorry to cause offense :).

Fiona

Fiona,
You did not cause offence :)

Maybe next time you see her you ask where she got the dog from and then contact the breeders and ask if they give advice on what to do with Siberian Huskies and their welfare.
I have a neighbour that has told me that a friend of his has just got a Sibe. and that they have never had a dog before. They have no idea what they have let themselves in for. The breeder should have told them but I doubt if they will have listened. They just see a cute lovely pup. Ah well lets hope they learn quick.:-)

hi Alexanders :-D
1st question maybe because they are harnessed up is a big factor you have some sort of control over them where as if you were out on a walk and they were off lead then you dont have that safety net ?? not 100% sure on that just my thoughts

i suppose that it entirely depends on the breeder and what reasons they are breeding if its solely for money then i suppose you can gurantee any tom dick or harry wil be able to buy 1 of their puppies reagardless of what they know of the breed

on the other hand if its a breeder who cares about thier breed and who gets their pups then its a different story, you will have people only being considered if they have done their homework on the breed and know what they are letting themselves in for by bringing such a breed into their lives
some breeders will only consider people for their pups that are going to work/show their dogs

i am classed as a pet owner also i am in the beginnings of learning how to work my sibes but i doubt if that will ever be competing at rallies
i have been running them on a bike they also get regular long walks
and we take them to tennis courts to get a secure off lead run about.They also have a fairly decent sized back garden too :-D
i have seen many a happy contented sibe that doesnt get worked etc and even 1 that lives in a flat ( not ideal i know) they haver the time to give him the excercise he needs though.


i will admit on the odd occassion i did let Kisska off when she was younger she stuck to the older dogs but its true what they say once they reach a certain age selective deafness kicks in and as i havent been in the breed long but i prefer to listen to those that have and take heed their advice, mine might be different there may be exception to the rule but i love my 3 too much to take that  chance :-( ,

Michelle & gang xx

   

hi alexanders,

in reply to your first question i would say that yes, they do love to run, but when in harness they are working and are taught the appropriate commands. they are taught commands for turns, speeding up or slowing down and of course stop. (thats not to say they always get it right!) now, many people may say if they can be taught that, then surely they can be taught to recall?? i would say, of course they can, they are very intelligent dogs, but the difference with being in harness is they are still 'in touch' with you via the harnesses and lines. they are working for you. when off lead, they are then free to make up their own mind on what to do. most like to go hunting and running. some sibes may be ok off lead, mine certainly are not, but i would never reccomend anyone let their sibes off in an unsecure area as 9 times out of ten it ends in heartache.  hope that maybe helps explain a bit.

question number two.
well, thats a whole other topic about responsible breeders. sadly, like every breed huskies have their fair share of bad breeders who sell dogs with no after care or not even warning new owners of the traits of the breed.
i dont think just because people choose to keep huskies as pets and dont let them off lead makes them cruel.

T^his is the point reputable breeders do not let them go to ordinary pet homes, only those who are prepared to go the extra mile to ensure their happiness.

Unfortunately there are iresponsible folk selling often unregistered and cross bred pups to anyone with the cash, and Sibe rescue are pickign up the pieces.

Last year I met a couple at a show who had a rescue pup as well as a oen they had for show.  It ahd been taken to the Vet at 10 or 12 weeks to be destroyed as the new owners couldn't cope with it around Christmas.

Popped into this site when I went to look for info on Lojan's Very Special Sula and Lois Leonard who inspired me to go on to put AKC CD titles on 6 of my Siberians when I owned them.  Really good questions and responses.  Having been owned by these dogs for over 30 years, I have found that you can never, never, NEVER trust them off leash because they are bred to run and they WILL -- at some point.  Perhaps right across a busy highway.  Are you prepared to take that chance?  Yes, I bred several litters and, yes, I sold some puppies.  I also declined money when I felt the home was inappropriate or the owner's expectations of being able to take the dog offleash were unrealistic.  One thing I can tell you from years and years of experience, it is not so much IF the Siberian gets loose as it is WHEN s/he will get loose.  I had a very secure kennel, yard, house and system ..... and I still had a few go over the fence, dig under, or chew through and go for a run.  After sleepless nights of driving the area, meeting all my neighbors, posting "Reward" posters and newspaper ads, all the escapees were eventually caught again except one.  the lack of closure there still haunts me.  The only way to give Siberians safe exercise is to hitch them to a sled and let them do what they were born to do --- run like the wind!  And the only time you can put a "whoa" on a team is when it has had the "vinegar" taken out of their systems by at least a one mile run at top speed.  Then you should have at least one snow hook and an ice hook in the basket, and a really good sled brake.  You make adjustments in your lifestyle to own a particular breed.  I could never handle the "slingers" from a Bloodhound or Saint Bernard, but people DO own these breeds.  And many other difficult ones.  Siberians are beautiful and such fun to have as companions; but you can never, never, NEVER safely take them off leash for any reason.

Welcome Lunagrace, stick around.  Sadly there are a lot of back yard breeders selling Husky and husky crosses as ideal family pets for the average home this is not the case.

There are quite a few around where I live, and the owners have often got a severe culture shock, and also sadly some of them don't last long in these homes.

I know a few Husky owners and had a Husky cross Elkhound to foster (she was so much more than the Elkhounds in terms of energy, and also suffered separation anxiety if not with other canines).

my thoughts that Sibes, etc seemed like caged birds,

Unfortunatly there are many around who are just this "Caged" they are owned by people who have no hope of ever giving them the excersise they need and have on the whole, been sold a beautifull energetic creature that has been produced by some BYB for cash... :-( There are so many now in my town that I see either being followed at a distance by a distraught owner or walked forever on a long line with no chance of running free...ever! An aquaintance has 3 Mals and they never ever get anything but a lead walk and usually on the pavements. They are like coiled springs and can be snappy due to being (I think ) frustrated. The owners are now talking of a treadmill to tire them out.. but where is the fun? I would love  a Mal they are one of my favourite breeds but I do not have the time fitness or energy (Or age) to give them what they need so will never have the pleasure of owning one. I wish I had owned one when I was young and fit and had the energy for it.
No doubt one fatefull day this young owner will rue the day she let her dog off to run as that is just what he will do and heaven knows what may stop him.
Aileen

I have sibes and would never let them off lead unless completely secure. Unfortunately I've yet to find a secure area I can have regular access to so instead they get long onlead walks plus running pulling a scooter several times a week providing the weather is cool enough. my girl is super intelligent so needs lots of mental stimulation. My rescue boy on the other hand isn't the sharpest tool in the box and can't cope with much more than a simple trick and a cuddle! :-)

Hi Lunagrace,
Glad you stumbled upon us, and welcome! as brainless has said 'hope you stick around' ~ We can always do with another voice of reason!
:-)

Wow! can't believe my post up there was 6 years ago!! where has the time gone!.. Have I really been an CD addict that long ;-)

> Have I really been an CD addict that long ;-)

Well, yes, once an addict always an addict ;) but it does look like you've been in cold turkey lately :)

Gosh, I guess that really WAS 6 years ago!  Didn't pay much attention to the date as we write it "backwards" here in the USA --- month, then day, then year --- but the info is still valid even though Lois Leonard has crossed over the Rainbow Bridge in 2008.  As I nearly did myself several years ago.  Had to let my show/sled/obedience dogs just grow old then with promises unfulfilled. 

Took stock when I regained my health and decided that, instead of chasing down another free spirited Siberian Husky, I would get a dog of a breed that was LIKE a Siberian in many ways BUT that barked a bit when I needed him to and that could be walked off-leash without running away.  Took me years of researching but I finally bought a Karelian Bear Dog.  6 years later now, I don't regret the decision for a moment.  Their temperament is more scenthound than Siberian (different set of personality traits -- just as independent but challenging in other ways) though he's just exactly what I'd hoped he'd be.  Closely-bonded companion dog who hikes with me and keeps the mountain lions away while we do. 

I looked up info on Lois Leonard because I am getting ready to put a large ad in a dog magazine and wanted to reference her accomplishments as an inspiration to me.  My Karelian has made breed history with his obedience and rally titles and high scores, thanks in part to the role model that Lois was to me.  Toss a pebble into a pond and you never know how far the ripples may go.

I wrote the following a few weeks ago as I was getting fed up with constantly having to answer questions about this issue - now I just say, Read This!!!

 
Why Can't Siberian Huskies Safely Go Off-Lead?

This is one of the constant questions raised about Siberian Huskies.

You would think it would be enough that:

  every responsible Siberian Husky owner will tell you that it is not safe to let a Siberian Husky off lead in an unenclosed area
  every ethical Siberian Husky Breeder will tell you that it is not safe to let a Siberian Husky off lead in an unenclosed area
  every single Siberian Husky rescue organisation IN THE WORLD will tell you that it is not safe to let a Siberian Husky off lead in an unenclosed area;  and that
  every single Siberian Husky Club IN THE WORLD will tell you exactly the same thing.

Now these people and organisations don't take this line for fun, or to "big up" the wild nature of their dogs, or to try to keep the breed exclusive. They take it because it accurately reflects the bitter experience of thousands of owners worldwide over a long period of time.

However, this obviously is not enough because there are still a steady stream of people who just don't believe this unanimous and ubiquitous message.  When you give examples of Siberians which have been killed, caused accidents or been shot by farmers for killing/savaging livestock, the doubters come back with, "But you could say the same about any breed!" - and to be honest, in many respects they would be right. Too many irresponsible owners of all kinds of dogs let their dog off lead with little thought for their dog's safety, the safety of other animals, or the safety of the public. That is not for discussion here though. I want to explain why, in my opinion, it is never safe to let Siberian Huskies offlead in unenclosed areas.

So, Why is the off-lead thing such a big deal with huskies? What makes them different from other breeds?

There are two major factors, both embedded deep within the history of the breed. The dogs we now know as Siberian Huskies were originally developed by what are known as the "maritime" Chukchi people of North East Siberia who relied on dogs for transportation during the frozen winter. Other Chukchi groups relied on Reindeer for both food and winter transportation.  The maritime Chukchi lived in fixed summer villages along the Bering Sea coast, but during the arctic/sub-arctic winter, became nomadic - following and hunting whatever game was available. The Chukchi would load their whole families on their sled and using teams of up to 20 dogs, would hunt all winter, sometimes covering 100 miles a day in their search for food. It was originally estimated that the Chukchi's dogs had been in existence for some 3000 years, but recent archeological research has found the remains of sled-type dogs going back well over 10,000 years. Indeed, the Siberian Husky has been recognised as one of the oldest dog breeds known to mankind, so they have had a long time for their instincts and behavioural traits to become hard-wired into them.

The two major factors I mentioned above are:

An extremely strong Prey Drive ; and
A fiercely independent intelligence.


Prey Drive - The source of their prey drive is simple. During the summer, when they were not required as transportation, the Chukchi dogs ran free around the summer villages, rarely being fed by their owners, but existing (if not prospering) on what they could steal or catch. As winter came and food became scarce the dogs once more became sled dogs (of course not all the dogs returned - accidents and natural predators accounted for some, but at least there were no roads for them to be killed on). This pattern of behaviour was built up over a period of time which has been estimated as long as 10,000 years.

As a result of millennia of such behaviour, these dogs now have a fearsome prey drive and the hunting skills to match. It is very common to hear that someone's huskies have killed cats, rabbits, squirrels, birds (ours have taken birds out of the sky as they fly over our garden at low level) and even sheep. It is rare that they regard even small dogs as "prey" as they seem to be able to recognise a fellow canine.



Independent Intelligence - You will occasionally hear dog trainers complain that huskies are not "trainable," and you will consistently see them left out of lists of "The Ten Most Intelligent Dog Breeds" etc. The problem with such trainers and such lists is that they confuse obedience and "bidability" with intelligence, and, in reality they are not at all the same thing. Train a Border Collie to fetch a ball and it will tend to retrieve the ball time after time after time. Train a Siberian Husky to fetch a ball and it will do one of two things - either eat the ball, or bring it back once. The next time you throw it the sibe will look at you as if to say - "You threw it! YOU get it back! Do you think I'm that stupid?"

When you give a trained Border Collie a command, you usually get instant obedience. When you give a command to a Husky, the Husky actually thinks about it before deciding to comply or ignore the command. This may sound like bloody-mindedness, but it is in fact a deeply ingrained survival trait for arctic sled dogs. Think about it. You are the lead dog on a sled team pulling your Chukchi owner and his family across the frozen sea ice. Your owner (30 yards behind you on the sled runners) shouts for you to turn right down a trail between a line of ice seracs as he knows this is the way to get to a safe camping area for the night. As lead dog, you can see that a right turn leads you to the edge of a deep crevasse and you refuse to make the turn. It is this intelligence and independence of thought which has been bred into Siberian Huskies over thousands of generations.

An example of this  came from Leonhard Seppala's famous lead dog (and hero of the 1925 Dipheria Run - Togo .  One day, Seppala was running his team, led by Togo , over the sea ice of the notorious Norton Sound ,

"Togo had been leading his sled across the sound during a northeastern gale on another occasion when, a few miles from shore, Seppala heard an ominous crack that let him know the sea ice was breaking up. Togo headed toward shore even before Seppala could give the command, but drew up short so fast he nearly flipped backwards. A yawning chasm of water had opened almost at Togo 's feet, but the dog had reacted quickly enough to avert immediate disaster. Seppala looked around and realized with dismay that he and his team were trapped on an ice floe and headed out to sea.

They spent more than twelve hours on that raft of ice, waiting as it drifted in the icy waters. Finally it neared land, but ran up against another floe that was jammed against the ice still connected to shore. they stopped moving, but there was still a five foot gap of water that Seppala couldn't hope to cross. He tied a lead onto Togo and heaved the dog across the water. Togo landed on the ice and sensing what Seppala intended, the dog began pulling with all his might, narrowing the gap between the two ice floes. Then the lead rope snapped. Seppala thought he was a dead man. Then Togo , showing himself to be possessed of more intelligence and resourcefulness than most men could expect from even their lead dogs, leaped into the water and grabbed the broken end of the lead rope in his jaws. He clambered back onto the ice and continued pulling until he had narrowed the gap enough for Seppala and the sled to cross safely."

As it was with Seppala's Siberian dogs, so it is today with our Siberian Huskies. No matter how well trained your Sibe is, there is always a part of his/her mind that, when he/she hears an instruction thinks, "Is it a good idea to follow that order?" and also, "What's in it for me?" - When you combine that independence of thought and keen intelligence with the high prey drive, you can see that obedience when offlead is a very dodgy prospect indeed.

Huskies don't help themselves in this regard. It is often found that husky puppies will act in extremely obedient ways for the first few months of their lives. I have lost count of the number of owners who have told me their Sibe is the exception that proves the rule and is ultra-obedient. Upon further discussion, it almost always transpires that the dog is a puppy - 4 or 5 months old!  Sibe puppies can lull you into a false sense of security - then puberty hits, they realise that they don't need you,  and all bets are off!!!

We have been interested in Siberians for 20 years and have owned them for  17+. During that time we have personally come across at least one owner each year whose "highly trained" Sibe has "gone deaf" for the first and last time and ended up dead under a car, shot by a farmer for savaging livestock or having caused a major traffic accident. The common theme is that all these owners quite genuinely believed that they could train this trait out of their dogs; that their relationship with their dogs was so good that their dogs would always respond to the recall command; and that the recommendation of every husky related organisation IN THE WORLD was nonsense and that they and their dog were somehow special. Unfortunately, these owners learned the hard way with tragic consequences for themselves and their dogs. The plaintive, "He/She's always come back before" is a common refrain in these tragic cases.

This is exactly the naive "I know better than every Siberian Husky organisation in the world" attitude which unfortunately leads to the deaths of too many Siberians each year. My wife is an expert dog trainer. I have seen her achieve things with Sibes (and other dogs) that I would have thought pretty near impossible. All our adult dogs have excellent recall and obedience and are often a source of amazement to people who regard sibes as untrainable. Yet neither she nor I would ever let our dogs off lead in an unsafe/unenclosed area because we know that their recall can never be 100% and they are much too precious for us to risk.

Having said all that, we believe strongly that all Siberian Husky owners should train their dogs in recall. We always recommend that people train their Siberians to recall IN SAFE ENCLOSED AREAS to as high a level as possible. Even in the best regulated worlds accidents sometimes happen - dogs slip their collars, snap their leads, escape from cages etc etc - and if you have trained your dog to recall, at least you have a chance of getting it back.  Such training cannot be guaranteed, but at least it's a form of insurance.

Talking about insurance - a message to all those who, despite all the evidence and arguments, still insist on letting their dogs go offlead in unenclosed areas - get some public liability insurance. If your dog goes offlead and causes an accident or kills livestock - YOU are liable. On second thoughts, maybe it's not worth it! The fact that every single Siberian Husky organisation in the world advises against letting them off lead, the owner whose dog caused the crash or killed the livestock could be liable for huge damages, as in legal terms, it could be argued that by acting against such universal informed advice, they had been incredibly negligent in letting their dog off lead in an unenclosed area and that this obvious negligence would invalidate their insurance.
Just a thought!

MickB

I have a Huskey X Rottie Rescue bitch.  This has to be one of the most informative posts I have read. Thank you

I met a young woman with the most beautiful Sibe puppy a while back.  After saying hello to the pup, I just casually said to the woman. I hope you like exercise as an adult Sibe needs plenty of it.

Her reply.....Oh no, they don't do they?  :(

I've also seen the other extreme when Sibe pups, all of 12 weeks have been taken out hill climbing for miles on end. :(

Mick that is a fantastic and fascinating explanation which could just as easily be applied to the average Malamute.  This is what sets these breeds apart...they are not 'normal' dogs (whatever that means) and it is their intelligence and independent nature that should be what attracted Sibe & Mal owner (and probably Greenland and CED owners as well) to those breeds in the first place.  If new owners are not even aware of these traits then, unless they are quick learners and able to adapt to the requirements of the ownership of these dogs, then they are destined to be the ones that end up in rescue, in the wrong hands, or PTS.

The off lead thing...There may be such a thing as an 'exception to the rule' but the only way to even guess that you may have one is to get to the other end of the dogs life and say..."well, given every opportunity, he never ran away!"  Until that point, he just hasn't run away...YET! :)

Mick,

Can I suggest you submit that article to ADMIN (pleeeeeeeease!!!) On the front page/ Home page of Champdogs we have a section (called the info section) on the right beside waiting list /breeders etc where there are 'Articles' submitted by CD members.

I find this is a really under used tool ( as in more people should submit useful articles!!) But for topics such as this where we find ourselves repeating the same advice over and over, it would be really handy to be able to just link in a post to a really good article!... and your's fits the bill perfectly.

> I finally bought a Karelian Bear Dog

Aaaah you got the Curly tail addiction now!! ( How funny, I have promised myself a Norwegian Elkhound in the future!.. this is partly due to 'Brainless' she posted just below you, have a look at her profile, wonderful line of Elghunds! and another member here Vanhalla, they have led me into temptation)
   Wow I am fascinated by the KBD's though, thanks for sharing your experience, it's really interesting! :-)

Mwah ha ha, ;) coming over to the Grey side Huskygal, there are more of us here, Jackie H and a few who don't post too often.

Come and see us at the Nordic, will only have the one with me as Safi finally came in season, but at least she will be finished for LKA.

Mick B
I agree, this is one of the best, most complete explanations of why Siberians cannot safely be offleash and it should be in a special section for future reference.

Can only add two thoughts to that: 

The uninitiated seem to misunderstand that Siberians run AWAY --- which is not true.  They simply RUN.  But they are built to run fast and far, and it feels so good to run effortlessly, that they just lose themselves in the bliss of running.  And that is where they get themselves into trouble.  Trying to teach or train (or beat or shock) a Siberian NOT to run is just as counter-productive as trying to teach a retriever NOT to pick something up and carry it around; or a herding dog NOT to round up and move critters.  Can't be done.  Shouldn't be attempted.  Don't get a Siberian, redirect to a dog that isn't so DRIVEN to feel the wind in her/his face.

Teaching a Recall is good; teaching the Down might be better.  A Recall is a moving execise that countermands what the dog REALLY would like to do.  To continue running for joy is more tempting for a Siberian than any treat/reward in the world.  Down is a static exercise, not so tempting to keep on going if all you have to do is lay down and you'll be rewarded.  Also, not a good idea to recall a dog that has crossed a highway.  Down the dog and then YOU decide when it is safe to cross the road.

husky gal : many a true word. I so wish some people very close to me would not take that denial attitude it worries me sick. Yes I am a worrier  but some things are so easy to avoid ie seatbelts , not smoking in the first place crah helmets the list goes on.

Iteresting to hear from whoever said they have an 8 mth old gundog who is kept on a line. I have the same with Brooke also 8mth old gundog. She is good indoors at reacall but out side noooo. the world is too fun and there are people,  dogs, actually anything and no matter what I do they come first so for now th eanswer is trailing line

Mick b brilliant I dont own a sibe and dont think I would be th right owner for one either although I love the look. Excellent article very informative and also luna grace for the additions most useful read.

About 20 years ago a friend of mine owned a young sibe and we looked after it for 2 weeks when they went on holiday. We had 2 Goldens at the the time and it mixed in beautifully sharing their beds etc. I took it to training class with ours and it was really responsive. We knew that they left it in their garden every day and it escaped frequently and made sure our garden was really safe. However, when I answered the front door one day it squeezed itself passed really quickly (surprising how small and light these dogs actually are) and all the neighbours were out the front trying to herd it back before it reached the main road. Luckily we got him back safely.

The people that owned him eventually sent him back to the breeders because they could not secure him.

They just can't help themselves and just want to run!