I have just had a person contact me who had a puppy from me 2 years ago. she said that the pup has just started having eplieptic seizures. Obviously i am extremely concerned about this but am not really sure what to do about it. my girl does not have epliepsy and nor does  her parents. The stud owner was not very helpful and was quite unpleasant when I asked her if there was any epilepsy on his side. She says not.
Is there anyway I can find out about this. Does one parent have to have epilepsy or can it just come out of nowhere? Is it inherited? there were 7 puppies in the litter. No-one else has reported this problem. Is it likely to affect other puppies? Mum has been spayed now and I would not use that stud again for various other reasons not related to this but is there any way to find out where this has come from. I am absolutely devastated that I have bred a pup with this problem.

> Is there anyway I can find out about this.

In many breeds finding out is just by word of mouth. here's some general info about the condition.

Not sure which breed you have but I think that the Animal Health Trust have a current study going regarding epilepsy in Border Collies here  It's about half way down the page.

I know epilepsy is thought to be a complex polygenic disorder, and the causes can include environmental factors, so one parent does not have to have it. I'm sure most people wouldn't breed from an ill dog anyway.  The usual advice to breeders is not to repeat that particular mating.

As for what you can do, well perhaps you could phone round the other puppy buyers from that litter just to let them know. I'm sure it's not your fault, you sound like a very concerned breeder.

Epilepsy can appear for other reasons, my Mums dachsie got them after being diagnosed wIth a Liver Shunt, it was thought the toxins had affected her brain, the are infrequent and she is 8yrs post surgery.

Have they taken the dog to the vets for a blood work up to check all is OK and the dog hasn't ingested some poison.

I may be completely wrong here (I'm sure I've seen it somewhere), that thyroid problems can manifest itself in fitting. May be worth investigating?

Not every seizure is in fact epilepsy so I would think your first action may be to ask your puppy buyer to ask their vet to let you have a full report and then to ask the help of your breed club's health committee.

Not every seizure is in fact epilepsy so I would think your first action may be to ask your puppy buyer to ask their vet to let you have a full report

Buy as you can't really diagnose it one way or another -unless you go for an MRI scan and happen to find a brain tumour, or damage to the brain from a blow or fall or something that would explain it for certain -there is no way to prove whether a dog has epilepsy (born with it or acquired it) or something else, blood tests etc will show nothing.

When one of mine started having fits (aged about 3) I filmed him and showed it both to the vet and the breeder. We never found what caused it (had the vet not seen the video he'd have said it was a 100 % healthy dog) and after several years it actually stopped (touchwood!! He is currently 8) -all tests were normal. However the breeder offered me another pup free of charge and that's what I personally would do as well, although I'd like to see video.

Buy as you can't really diagnose it one way or another -unless you go for an MRI scan

Agree, that is why I suggested that the breeder asks for a full report so that they know what tests if any have been done.

When did the dog last have it's booster vaccination?

My Louis had epileptic seizures. Our vet at the time said, you can have seizures that aren't epilepsy and that the epileptic seizures always display 'paddling' of the paws - Louis always brought up bile first, then collapse, then his whole body would stiffen with his neck stretched back, then paddling his paws before relaxing. He would grimace but not drool. He never wee'd or poo'd himself while having a seizure but as soon as he could stand, would have a very soft poo. He would then be sleepy for a couple of hours after. His seizures were most often one offs, months apart, although he did have cluster seizures on two occassions - very scary :-(

It might be an idea to find out if it is actual epileptic seizures as opposed to seizures,

Agree, that is why I suggested that the breeder asks for a full report so that they know what tests if any have been done.

You can't seriously mean you would expect the puppy buyers to cough up four figures for an MRI scan that may not tell them anything and in any event won't help the dog, just so they can tell the breeder they've done every test possible? Why? When like I said filming the dog having a fit won't cost anything and won't stress the dog either. Or have I completely misunderstood what you meant?

As others have said, epilepsy is only diagnosed when all other reasonable tests to exclude physical conditions have been carried out. I have a 13 year old who started having seizures aged 4. The breeder, in this case, did absolutely not want to know. Indeed, litter mates went on to sire future litters.

However, the breeder of my youngest dog called me to inform me his mother had started seizing aged 5. She was immediately spayed and has never experienced further seizures. However, given the problem in this breed with epilepsy and the unknown genetic component, the breeder has ceased to use any dogs from this line in future breeding. In addition, she has contacted all owners asking them to spay/neuter offspring.

In your case, I would inform the owners you have sold puppies from this line too. It's extremely unreasonable of the sire to be defensive. However, this is sadly often the case with breeders not wanting to admit to the problem and bring an end to a breeding line :(

Or have I completely misunderstood what you meant? confused

May be, I meant what I said, the breeder should ask the permission of pup owner to ask the vet for their report and then seek the advice of the Breed clubs health committee who should be able to help with the pups background and information on any similar cases that have occurred.

I agree with you that without MRI or actually doing tests during a fit it is impossible to say that it is epilepsy I did not suggest that the pup owner would have had a MRI test and if this is so then the vet will not say (or should not say) it is epilepsy.

if this is so then the vet will not say (or should not say) it is epilepsy.

I have to disagree here. An MRI scan will simply rule out the presence of lesions or swelling. It cannot diagnose epilepsy. I don't feel an MRI scan is a necessary expense or procedure required as part of the diagnosis in most cases

Yes, blood works to check kidney and liver function, blood sugar levels, thyroid etc should be carried out. However, in the case of brain lesions or swellings, it is highly likely that other symptoms would be noted by the owner in addition to the seizures; changes in behaviour, vomiting or signs of nausea etc. In addition, age is a critical consideration - it would be unlikely that a dog of 9 would develop epilepsy for example. A vet can consider all this information and diagnose epilepsy without the need for expensive and intrusive MRI tests.

have to disagree here. An MRI scan will simply rule out the presence of lesions or swelling. It cannot diagnose epilepsy. I don't feel an MRI scan is a necessary expense or procedure required as part of the diagnosis in most cases

Yes this is exactly what I was saying -and I think it is what Nova said too. :) An MRI scan can only show certain obvious things like a tumour, it cannot prove anything else (so the likelihood is it too will show nothing at all) -and it will not be of any use to help the actual dog. Added to that that  they cost well over £1000, closer to £2000 in fact, there really is very little point of one in the case of seizures.

My ESS started to have seizures age 2ish.  They seemed to be linked to excessive exercise/excitement.  Despite a barrage of tests (but not an MRI) we have never been able to confirm what it is - vets don't think it is true epilepsy, although most of the symptoms matched,  and queried it being exercise induced collapse.  Phenobarb certainly did not work and was disontinued PDQ.  He still has them now (age 8), perhaps every 3/4 mths or so but generally, so long as we take dont' let him do things which get him toooo excited, he is generally under control.  He went to a specialist at Edinburgh vet school who said that there are many misdiagnosis's (sp) of epilepsy and that it really is not terribly well understood. 

thanks for the replies everyone. The owners have had blood and urine tests done but found nothing wrong. He has had 4 fits now. :(
The owners are being very nice about it but I feel so bad.
I can't offer them another pup as I have no plans to breed another litter in the near future. Should I offer to refund their money? They haven't asked and it will be hard this close to Christmas but I want to do the right thing.

I have been on both sides of the fence (and still have the 13 year old dog I bred who has Epilepsy but hasn't had a fit for 7 years thanks to his meds). I would offer her the purchase price back as even if he is covered by insurance this is possible the cruellest condition a dog can suffer from and the owners go through hell too. I have just spent the last 24 hours crying over my boy's fitting body - he had 9 fits in 36 hours between Mon afternoon and 2.30am this morning and who knows what the future holds? Please do the morally right thing, it's the least you can do.........

i had a girl years ago that had epileptic fits but only when she was in season, she would have 2 or 3 through her season then nothing until the next 6 months , vet said to spay her which i did and it was the totally wrong thing to do, she started having 3 or 4 a day from then on , and passed away at the age of 7 ,