Double handling - is someone standing outside the ring indicating how a dog can be stacked more effectively 'double handling' and is it just a bit frowned upon or against the 'rules'. 

TIA :-)

Your definition does not really describe double handling as it means the attraction of the exhibit not the handler and it is against the rules.

Once at a Companion show I was sharing the ring with a GSD amongst others, the GSD was being double handled by a person outside the ring running up and down shaking a tin with biscuits in it - would not have mattered except it attracted my exhibit as well. Matters have improved but you still come across some very noisy rings.

No that would be fine, it is 'attraction of the exhibits attention from outside the ring' that is 'double handling' not giving the handler advice or pointing out that it is standing badly.

ooh thank you! so it's another thing that I can do to improve my ring performance. 

Re. what double handling really is - is it done to make a dog look more alert? 

> ooh thank you! so it's another thing that I can do to improve my ring performance

Not really,.... ring performance is more keeping you eye on the judge, concentrating on your dog and NOT allowing outside ring interupt/interfere.  You expect a judge to give your dog his/her full attention, give the judge the same respect ;-)

> is it done to make a dog look more alert? 

Yes in some breeds an alert expression and posture are ultra important.

True, but if Saffronsmith is inexperienced, it can be jolly useful to have someone hiss at you 'get his back legs straight' or 'keep your hand still!' Certainly happened to me often enough! :-p

>Not really,.... ring performance is more keeping you eye on the judge, concentrating on your dog and NOT allowing outside ring interupt/interfere.  You expect a judge to give your dog his/her full attention, give the judge the same respect

True, but if Saffronsmith is inexperienced, it can be jolly useful to have someone hiss at you 'get his back legs straight' or 'keep your hand still!'

My husband is pretty experienced now, and I do it to him all the time! It can be hard to see the position of all four legs when you are next to the dog. A woman once told me off for being horrible to my husband, she said I should be nicer to him! All I'd done was tell him to speed up as the dog he was showing was moved too slow and looked bored LOL -and he didn't mind.

> My husband is pretty experienced now, and I do it to him all the time! It can be hard to see the position of all four legs when you are next to the dog.

Maybe you could get him to wear one of those ear-pieces like newsreaders have, and then you can have a remote connection to tell him privately? lol.... Or a bluetooth headset while in the ring, with you on the phone! And I think you can get wireless intercom setups like that for motorbike riders to communicate with their pillions. :D

> Maybe you could get him to wear one of those ear-pieces like newsreaders have, and then you can have a remote connection to tell him privately? lol.... Or a bluetooth headset while in the ring, with you on the phone! And I think you can get wireless intercom setups like that for motorbike riders to communicate with their pillions. :D

:-)  like like like .

from the replies coming on from my post, can I assume that this is more acceptable in certain breeds than others..

this is more acceptable in certain breeds than others

Double handling is not acceptable in any breed although historically one breed was the principal offender.

Think that one person thought it applied to a handler being attracted from outside the ring, it is not the handler but the exhibit and the rule is:
The attracting of the attention of exhibits by any method from outside the ring is prohibited

so nothing to stop you telling a handler that they have a problem or are not achieving the best result, this may not be liked in some breeds, I don't know, but it is not against the rules.

Yes, advice to handler is fine in my breed (within reason!) and totally different from attracting the dog. Mind you, we had a hilarious incident at a rally trial 2 weeks ago - chap went into his return weave and hesitated for a LONG moment at the end thinking it had been a single weave, and because he hadn't returned to the start, he couldn't spot the next station to do! We were all watching him desperately willing him to think about returning along the weave, and a couple of us were making little hand motions and mouthing 'return, return' at him! He worked it out in the end, and the judge was in stitches - we insisted she couldn't take marks off for unsolicited assistance! :-D

Lucy Dogs, think that is the spirit that most people taking part in the various dog sports and activities have, it is only the few that seem to have a win at all costs outlook on the hobby and it because of those that we are subject to so many complicated rules and regs. I know it is an effort to have a level playing field for all but there will always be those who will seek to find a way round any rule and in some cases succeed.

I have a friend whose dogs always stand perfectly themselves but she has a habit of moving them grrrr, I have been known to pull faces at her and tell her off when she comes out of the ring LOL!

if you run a dog for handler who is unable to do so ,and  you were to present the dog to the judge  (instead of handler) is that classed as double handling?

I have a friend whose dogs always stand perfectly themselves

Think we all have suffered that and I think I may be an offender but I hate to see it - you see a dog standing beautifully and alert the handler moves them and they look like a sack of potatoes half asleep.

Lost count of the number of times I have asked a handler to move the dog forward a couple of steps just to try and get the best from the dog, not my job but I hate to see a dog pulled out of line when they look so very much better in a natural pose. I know others do not agree but I don't think I will be changing my opinion any time soon.

No Sal, double handling can only take place from outside the ring.

thanks Nova you've settled an argument Lol

If you go back 9 posts Sal you will see I have quoted the rule and it makes it clear.

What you describe is normal assisted handling within the ring.

yes thanks  i saw that,  the point i wanted clarified  was  the  presentation of  the dog to the judge and then handing  the exhibit back to the handler.

No problem when a handler returns to the judge they will present the exhibit and when dismissed will hand the dog back to the original handler. What takes place within the ring is in the control of the judge and not covered by the KC rules on double handling.

If you need to use a runner or are asked to be one it is expected you will ask the steward who will ask the judge, think I am safe in saying no judge would refuse this.

No Sal, double handling can only take place from outside the ring.

You should have seen the Malinois judging at the world show this year. Every single dog double handled (I was even told beforehand we HAD to do it as the judge would expect it -by somebody who knew the judge) and some of the people double handling even ran INSIDE the ring with toys and treats shouting and chucking stuff in the air!

Perhaps I need to add your breed to the one I was thinking of - it is not tolerated in the UK and is very unfair on people using adjacent rings.

i'm told judging in some countries is a real eye opener lol

You should have seen the Malinois judging at the world show this year

Sounds like the judging there was a right farce, our breed wasnt even gone over, the judge simply watched them move and then the owner was asked to pick up the dog so he could give it a kiss :-p

Perhaps I need to add your breed to the one I was thinking of - it is not tolerated in the UK and is very unfair on people using adjacent rings.

Thankfully it's nothing like this in the UK. Plenty of double handling goes on in all the Belgians, but it is always discreet, certainly no noise involved or anybody throwing anything. I'm more likely to hide out of sight when my dogs are in the ring rather than try to attract them -so they keep their eyes on the handler. (I only handle myself if there's no choice, hubby and daughter usually does it.)

There was a time when the other breed were judged outside sometimes in the only outside ring and I often wondered if it were because of complaints about the noise but must say of late that seems to have stopped although if you are in the next ring the continual and never ending running round in circles is distracting but I suppose that is better than them doing it outside the ring. 

> if you run a dog for handler who is unable to do so ,and  you were to present the dog to the judge  (instead of handler) is that classed as double handling?

No double handling is attracting the dog from outside the ring.  What you describe is having a 'runner'