Hi, I hope that you can give me some advice on a little showing dilemma I have!

My most local show is holding breed classes for us and the judge has been changed to someone whom I would always try and exhibit under if the show was close enough. I know she likes my youngest bitch and I always try to put an entry in for local shows that schedule a breed judge.

However, earlier in the year my dogs stayed with the judge whilst I went on my holiday. I know that you shouldn't exhibit under someone who has handled your dogs in the past 12 months (though can't find any rules/regs on this on the KC website) but, what about if they have boarded with the judge?

Not sure what to do, it is my closest show by a fair way, I want to ensure that they keep the breed classification etc etc Plus, on the very very selfish side I know she likes my girl, and I know if said dog doesn't perform on the day she wouldn't just give her BOB, a first or even a placing if it was not earned.

Get someone else to handle her and stay away......

The rule is the judge cannot judge a dog they have handled in the ring, prepared for exhibition (i.e. groomed) OR BOARDED during the past 12 months -so you can't enter, regardless of who handles the dog.

Thanks for that.

Oh well, will get a lie in that day at least!

Not sure if the rule applies to replacement judges, will check for you.

EDIT: Well have looked it up and it says that the 12 month rule does not apply if the judge is appointed as an emergency judge - it does not however explain the term emergency. So I would think if you have already entered you are entitled to continue to show under the replacement judge - however if you know who the judge is before you enter then you are not entitled to show under this judge.

If the judge has owned, handled or boarded a dog it cannot be exhibited under them for 12 months.

Can you define 'handled' please?

Handled in the ring or some other competition.

What about someone taking ringcraft and going over your dog?

Going over at ringcraft is NOT handling the dog.

You have to be careful about the handling because as I understand it even running a dog or holding it whilst the owner shows another dog and then handing it back could be classed as handling.

> You have to be careful about the handling because as I understand it even running a dog or holding it whilst the owner shows another dog and then handing it back could be classed as handling.

That is what I was led to understand also..(KC Seminar rules & regs)

Thanks Lexi & Nova! That's what I was thinking too. Any suggestions on time span? If someone went over my dog at ringcraft tomorrow how long between class & showing under that person when they judge?

It doesnt apply to someone who judges your dog.....you could enter under the same judge every week.....it applies to a person exhibiting/holding/boarding your dog.

If someone went over my dog at ringcraft tomorrow how long between class & showing under that person when they judge?

Like I said before, somebody going over your dog is NOT handling it (YOU are the person handling it), therefore it doesn't come into the equation at all. You could show under them the next day. It only covers the person actually handling your dog inside a ring, whether it is doing it all, just moving it or just standing it.

Sorry I'm lost now. If someone who attends the same ringcraft class as I do goes over my dog can I show under them? If that person makes a fuss of him at ringcraft each week can I show under them?

Yes, yes and yes! Going over a dog, cuddling a dog, stroking a dog etc etc is NOT handling it! It only covers judges that have handled the dog IN THE RING at a show, groomed it for a show or boarded it.

Yes to the first one & yes to the second one, as they are only going over/judging the dog, not doing the bit you do(handling).

> IN THE RING

Not necessarily..it maybe only holding the dogs lead outside the ring too

In Response to Goldmali
Yes, yes and yes! Going over a dog, cuddling a dog, stroking a dog etc etc is NOT handling it! It only covers judges that have handled the dog IN THE RING at a show, groomed it for a show or boarded it.

Steady on!  No need to be snarky, the rules aren't crystal clear.  Would you not agree that it's etiquette to not show under the person going over your dog at ringcraft, or are you happy to show under someone who sees, cuddles, goes over your dog week in week out without a qualm?? 

I'm in a numerically small breed and we will sit next to, pet (hard not to as they do demand it;) ) hold the lead for fellow exhibitors, so taking things that far we would rarely be able to show under a breed specialist.

As for the person going over dogs at ringcraft that is no different to showing under the same judge more than once a year.

Steady on!  No need to be snarky, the rules aren't crystal clear.  Would you not agree that it's etiquette to not show under the person going over your dog at ringcraft, or are you happy to show under someone who sees, cuddles, goes over your dog week in week out without a qualm?? 

Snarky??? I don't even know what that means!  The exclamation marks was to ensure it seemed friendly and cheerful. ??? And no, if I avoided everyone in my breed that will end up touching my dogs at shows or ringcraft, there would be only NON breed specialists left to show under. Surely we have to have some trust in our judges? After all, many will know a LOT of breeders/exhibitors. I'd find it rude to NOT show under a judge I knew -it would look like I had no trust in them. (The only time I would not enter would be if I already had a ticket under that judge with the same dog -unless it was Crufts or breed champshows.) And I find breed specialists generally much better.

Not necessarily..it maybe only holding the dogs lead outside the ring too

No, because that is not having handled the dog. That's holding the dog's lead.

It is a numerically small breed. It's a local limited show, the judge has my breed, it's their first judging engagement and only 1 other person who is a committee member and usually doesn't show at this show have the breed in this area.

I'm fairly new to showing so was just checking the rules as I know folk who take ringcraft class who will stop in the weeks before a judging engagement.

Think we need to step back a bit here, the rule is F(1) 30(11) and states:

A dog may be disqualified if -
Handled at a show, boarded or prepared for exhibition within the previous twelve months by the scheduled Judge. This shall not apply to a judge appointed in a emergency

This does not mean you can't attend a ringcraft club where the judge is helping as an instructor or is training a dog - nor does it mean a judge can't pet a puppy or dog at the ring side or hold the dog on the showground whilst the owner looks for a poo bag during the year.
(EDIT) I do not mean the judge on that day although I don't see why not.

I am sure we and the KC should take a sensible view on the interaction between owners, handlers and dogs within their own breed as totally avoiding contact would in a lot of cases be impossible.

> Not necessarily..it maybe only holding the dogs lead outside the ring too
>
> No, because that is not having handled the dog. That's holding the dog's lead.

I have to say that the KC rules & reg seminar I attend, it was mentioned that even holding a dogs lead could be classed as handling.

have to say that the KC rules & reg seminar I attend, it was mentioned that even holding a dogs lead could be classed as handling.

Well anything is possible but for a start someone would have to put their money where there mouth was knowing there was at least a 99% chance the complaint would be dismissed.

Suppose if the lead were held in the ring other than whist a mishap was sorted that may be considered handling. However if my neighbour slips in the ring and drops the lead or I am stewarding and the exhibitor was trying to pick up, put their ring number on or tie a shoe lace I would not think about taking the lead. would I be making it impossible for that person to show under me and I can imagine what the concensors of opinion would be if one of our breed tried reporting that, I am also sure that they would not think twice about it either they would be too busy minding their own charges.

I am just quoting what I was told..never said that I agreed with it/thought it was going a little far with the rules.....

thought it was going a little far with the rules.....

Agree with you there.

Surely if the rule meant to go that far it would have said The judge may not have had any physical contact with the dog for 12 months in addition to not owning or boarding it during this time?

Lexy I have to say that all the years in showing I was also told the same thing, that even touching a dog, going over it at ringcraft etc. that you could not show under them for 12 months.  So shows how some people can be mistaken on the real rules and it's been KC people who have told me so in the past!

Think there are jobs worth people in every activity Brainless, learned over the years that there is always one.

I originally read the OPs post as the judge stayed with her...now Ive read that the dog stayed with the judge...then NO boarding.

Handling..that old chestnut!
Ive been asked repeatedly if 'handling' means touched or held by....NO. It means being taken into a competition ring in place of its owner or other handler.

If someone petted, stroked or smiled at my dog I would most certainly show under them....I like people who like dogs.

Always thought that people in my breed with puppies or young dogs welcome their dogs being petted and I always oblige :-) In breeds with small numbers you can't help by be involved with others dogs. If the dog on the next bench gets off or becomes tied up do you ignore it, no of course not you sort it out.

>I know folk who take ringcraft class who will stop in the weeks before a judging engagement.

If someone does over your dog, at ringcraft or anywhere else, then they're judging it, they're not handling it. You're handling it. You can show under the same judge every day of the week if you want to.

If someone holds your dog's lead outside the ring, because the dog's not being exhibited at that time, then they're not handling it.

Glad to come back from a night at training class and see several people who get what I meant about a) handling means showing the dog, and b) you can't avoid all judges that's ever touched your dog in the past few months.  As has been said, I welcome people saying hello to my dogs, especially youngsters, and lots of those people in my breed happen to be judges -and they are exhibitors one week, judges the next, then exhibitors again etc. I remember one open show where our breed judge had been seriously delayed (as in by hours), with the four varieties of BSDs and the exhibitors that were there, we worked out that if needs be, there were enough breed judges there to take over without anyone having to judge their own variety! Or here's another example, a few years ago I was manning our breed booth at DD at Crufts (as I do every year for one day) and the person who was due to judge us 2 days later came round -imagine if I'd had to say "Don't touch my dogs as you will judge them".... :)

Surely we have to have faith in our breed judges, they are after all usually our peers -other breeders and exhibitors. If a judge makes a fuss of your dog it doesn't mean it will automatically win, and it doesn't mean that people will think it won, if it did, because of that. I don't know anyone who would lay down £35 because a dog that had been cuddled by the judge happened to take BOB. The breed specialist judge usually knows most of the exhibitors, if not all, anyway. My best show result ever was under a judge I'd had an argument with in the week preceding the show! (And they weren't even a friend, only an acquaintance.) Clearly a judge who placed the dogs not the owners- as most judges do. :D

> Lexy I have to say that all the years in showing I was also told the same thing, that even touching a dog, going over it at ringcraft etc. that you could not show under them for 12 months.  So shows how some people can be mistaken on the real rules and it's been KC people who have told me so in the past!

>

This is what I was also told hence my question.

This is what I was also told hence my question.

Think you have been mislead, if you read the wording it is clear the word handling means in the ring not socially which any contact outside a competition arena or ring is.

The relevant part of the rule is "Handled at a show" this surely means what we would all accept. that is the handling of the dog in a situation where that dog is in competition. Patting, stroking, cuddling or even playing with a dog is not handling at a show even if it happen in a show venue, the person interacting with the dog is not "handling it for competition".

In the everyday world the word handle means to lay hands on but in the show world it means to present the dog for exhibition. IMO the context of the rule gives the intention that the rule on handling means in the ring and presenting that dog for assessment for the judge.

Thank you :-)

We would have an even greater problem with the working sibes as you rely on other people to take the dogs to the start, no time then to be worrying about who is a judge and which is a show dog :-)

Does anyone ever enforce these rules?  presumably if you had a complaint about the above -  handling/judging, you'd have to pay £35 to make the complaint.

Yes they are enforced but not before the circumstances are looked into. And yes, if you as an exhibitor or member of the GP wish to make a complaint you have to put your money down, clubs & show societies make a report to the KC as a matter of course and any even that required to be entered in the book would be included as a matter of course but other things would be at the discretion of the secretary or committee although they should be reported if they infringe the KC rules.

The news of the disqualification of a very well known Akita just this week should assure you that action is taken once the matter has been bought to the attention of the KC and they have investigated.

A friend of mine was reported, people paid their money and said the judge that gave her bitch a ticket had handled the bitch in the ring recently. This was a bitch that only handled well for the owner so nobody else ever took her in the ring and I had been with them at many shows so I wrote a letter to the KC giving a statement saying I had never seen the bitch in question being handled by anyone but the owner. I assume other people did the same or were asked by the KC to give evidence. The judge and owner were cleared and the bitch kept the ticket.

A dog may be disqualified

Probably a gormless question but is the dog disqualified from the show that it shouldn't have been in? or disqualified from showing thereafter.

depends on whether it was something that disqualified it from that class/show or something that would prevent it being eligible to be shown altogether.

Probably a gormless question but is the dog disqualified from the show that it shouldn't have been in? or disqualified from showing thereafter

This will depend and run from disqualification from an award a one show when the dog was entered in some way against the rules (over age or over qualified for the class or shown under a judge they should not have been) to a ban for life and a ban on the dogs progeny (usually a biting indecent)

oops, haven't made myself clear:

A dog may be disqualified if -
Handled at a show, boarded or prepared for exhibition within the previous twelve months by the scheduled Judge. This shall not apply to a judge appointed in a emergency

in this case (handled/boarded then judged) is the dog disqualified from that show in retrospect?

Yes, depending on the circumstances the dog would loose any awards it won at that particular show and the handler and/or judge may be fined - this would have to be a serious and flagrant flouting of the rule.

It would have no continuing effect on the dog although if it were serious enough bordering on fraud it may mean the handler and judge would have further charges bought such as bringing the sport into disrepute, or what ever the KC calls it.

The KC rules and regs are difficult at times to understand (well they are for me) but it would seem the main aim is to fairness for all. So although anyone can complain they have to put a deposit down (to try to stop frivolous complaints) the KC will then write to witnesses and then if it thought necessary a meeting is called where those involved will/can attend, with a legal representative if wished. The committee will listen and consider the information and the circumstances and make a decision on the penalties to be applied.

Being found guilty in a court of law for anything involving animal cruelty will automatically get a person banned for a number of years and in some circumstances being found guilty of a dishonest act may cause the person to be banned for taking office in any dog club or society.

Are the penalties imposed by the KC enforceable by law? for example if they issue a fine can the bailiffs attend if it is not paid?