This is for any owner of a Stud dog.  Im just beginning to start the search for a prospective mate for my girl (she isnt 2 until May, has had all Assured Breeder recommended tests done and just waiting for the annual eye test next Feb, but doesnt hurt to look and build up a relationship with the stud dog owner) and Im currently carefully looking at pedigree's, health tests, COI's etc.  Once I have found a dog that Im interested in, how is best to approach the owner regarding that first conversation or what information would stud owners want to know immediately?  Bearing in mind that the dogs might be a distance and that the initial contact might have to be via telephone or as some of the studs that are listed on here, via email.

Its just that its struck me that Ive read quite a few posts over the years from breeders selling pups that have said 'oh he asked the price in the initial email thats a big no' or 'they didnt put much information in the initial email/contact' thats no good either.  I didnt know if there was an etiquette for stud dogs as well.

I just want to do this as best as I possibly can with as much forethought and preparation as is needed for something like this.

What I've done in the past is to write (you could email or phone if you preferred) to say that I admired their dog and hoped that, if the pedigrees were compatible, whether they'd consider allowing me to use him on my bitch (brief outline of her pedigree). I'd list the tests (and the results!) the bitch has had and a brief description of her show career, and also say when I was considering mating her. Then I'd ask for a copy of the dog's pedigree to study if they thought my bitch was suitable, and what would his stud terms be.

how is best to approach the owner regarding that first conversation
I have usually spoken to the stud dog owner at a show (not just before they're getting ready to go in the ring) and asked if they thought that my girl might be suitable for whichever dog I was interested in using.

Difficult one this as apart from the dogs I have used abroad where I got to know the stud owners over the Internet, after having sought information on their dogs and asked the possibility of using them, I have always known the stud dogs and their owners (as we all meet sooner or later during the year at shows), so it's simply a case of asking once you know what you need to know (studied their offspring, siblings parents, health results etc).

I assume you will already know the dogs by sight, and had a god opportunity to meet the ones your considering, if not take the trouble to at a show or event.  This way you don't need to say anything to them until your sure.

If that can't be arranged you will have to approach the owners and say your considering several dogs and would like to meet them if your bitch would be acceptable to them, and offer to give/send all her details to them.

Well they will want a pedigree to see if there is anything they would want to be aware of and whether they think it looks good on paper (meaning likely to produce the quality wanted).

I would imagine the stud dog owner is likely to be aware or be able check the bitches track record in the show ring/working arena. 

It would probably be a good idea to mention which shows/working events she will be at over the next few months so they can take the time to look at her more than in passing and hopefully get to meet her to judge her temperament.

Ask for the stud terms in writing in advance, assuming the stud owner is experienced themselves.  If they are novice owners of a good male they may need for the mating the services of someone experienced, I have used males owned by Novice stud handlers so handled the practical side myself, and at other times have been able to leave all in the stud owners hands.

Again if the stud owner is not the dogs breeder or very knowledgeable themselves, then the advisability of the pedigree producing good results/minimum chance of problems is best discussed with the dogs breeder/owners of his parents.

I usually know the owners of stud dogs and they know my bitches...so much of the above may not be applicable...
but recently but I made contact with an owner in the Netherlands.

I asked for the dogs pedigree (although I can get it on line) as its a good 'way in'.
After this was emailed in a friendly way, I asked for copies of all his health results...if this puts anyone off I dont want to use their dog!

If this was the UK I suppose Id ring up and get into a dialogue about the persons dog ( flattery always oils the wheels in dog people conversations I find) and then take it from there.

I usually end the conversation by asking how much cash to bring for the stud fee...saying "I need to be prepared to bring the money with me"....they like that :-)

Ive never had anyone saying my bitch was unsuitable...yet!.... Perhaps not the most important thing to worry about.

I've had boys that have been used (occasionally) at stud for many years now (all successful show dogs with outstanding temperaments and good health test results :) ) and I've been approached in several ways - in person, by phone and by email. It doesn't particularly worry me how the approach is made - I have no problem with email, in fact I quite like it as it gives me time to think before making a response. I usually know the bitches' breeding as it's generally people I've met at shows, but I'd attach a copy of my girl's pedigree if I was approaching someone who might not know about her. I would also ask what their stud terms were and if I could see a copy of their stud contract, if they use one. Nowadays it's easy to check for health test results on the KC's site - but I do realise that not all results for all tests are recorded there.

I have turned many, many people away - for various reasons, some with really lovely bitches but I didn't think they were a good match for my dog ...

Unless I know the person, I would like to be approached in much the same way as by a puppy buyer (and this is what I do myself), i.e. the person who contacts me says or writes "Hi my names is x, my kennel name is y, I've been breeding this breed for x number of years/I am planning my first litter and have been in the breed x number of years, I have a bitch called (pedigree name), bred by, sire and dam, her health tests are as follows, I show her/work her and this is what she has done xxxxx. I've seen your dog at shows/working tests/whatever and greatly admire him blah blah blah" -along those lines.

> the dogs might be a distance and that the initial contact might have to be via telephone or as some of the studs that are listed on here, via email.

If you are approaching someone you've met before, then unless you will be bumping into them, I think phoning is good because they'll be able to place you and probably your bitch. If it's a stranger then I think email is fine as you can introduce yourself as you want, set out your info and questions, and play with the wording till you're happy with it. That way too, you won't catch the dog owner on the hop.

some of the studs that are listed on here
Are you choosing dogs as suitable just by looking at adverts and not knowing them?

I think also unless its someone you know quite well, then either email or letter can be good to start with, like others have said this gives the other party time to think if the bitch is suitable for thier dog(all aspects tests pedigree etc).

I have gone through a similar scenario..I have met the person concerned at shows but never seemed to find the right time to be able to talk(without others listening to the conversation). I emailed and then took my bitch to a show so they could be certain of their decision.

some of the studs that are listed on here
Are you choosing dogs as suitable just by looking at adverts and not knowing them?

I missed this before but would have to add, I would never enquire about a dog I hadn't seen in the flesh.

Oh dear, Im mating my champion bitch to a dog Ive never set eyes on :-)  Hes in the Netherlands, only seen him in photos but exceptional health history.

> Im mating my champion bitch to a dog Ive never set eyes on

We've done the same thing. We certainly weren't disappointed. It was a way of bringing in new bloodlines to this country too. Blanket rules don't always apply to every situation.

Ditto, though video footage in the most recent case does help a bit too.

I have done this too with my last litter. I had seen quite a few of this dogs progeny, and wasn't disappointed with the pups I got from him.

Slightly different when it's abroad!!!! :)

Slightly different when it's abroad!!!!
AND when you're looking through knowledgable and experienced eyes and can perhaps pick the brains of other experienced overseas breeders about temperament too.

There are always exceptions to every good general rule. :)

Can I ask, as someone who won't ever breed but just curious?  In the world of horses I was told if you like the look of a stallion use it's sire.  Does this apply to stud dogs?  If you like the look of a dog do you ever think it would be better to use the dog that produced that dog?  Just wondering..

> There are always exceptions to every good general rule

Too true Marianne, Im only pulling your leg :-)
I would never use a dog from a 'male order catalogue' (as I like to think of that style of beeding) and have always known, seen myself or made a special trip beforehand to do a recce to see if I like him.

Im stepping out of my comfort zone for sure :-(

Too true Marianne, Im only pulling your leg :-)

I know. :) I was just wanting to make the point in general that just looking at online adverts isn't the way to go about things as you don't know what you are getting. I was reading a Swedish breed club journal last night and it was mentioned in it that there is a proposal for members to not be allowed to re-touch their digital photos for adverts (or having to mention it has been done -not that I can see how a breed club could police either!) as dogs are made to look a lot better than they do in real life, and those that leave their photos natural give the impression of having less good dogs -when the total opposite might be true. Just one good reason for seeing a dog in real life -faults are still there.

I can totally see where you are coming from regarding not picking the dog from a listing on here (what is the point of people from well respected kennels putting their dogs on here then?) However in my breed there are two distinct types, working and show, all my initial choices that I have liked and approached in the working lines have been so close in lines as to make the breeding unwise. Especially with the COI calculator that is now online and puppy buyers are actively encouraged to look at before purchase. Hence trying to look further afield. With the best will in the world it is not possible to meet every potential match before considering them on paper first.

Not quite sure what you are saying Alfiesmalfie -is your bitch working or show lines? If she's working lines and you say ALL working dogs are too closely related, are you saying you will go for a show line dog instead? As far as matings go, that's possibly not the best option -the working people will be unlikely to want the pups due to the show blood, and vice versa. Pet buyers are usually best off with pure showline pets. Different if there's something specific you're trying to bring in and see it as an ongoing work in progress. I also wouldn't worry too much about the COI if it's a breed with a small genepool -and the right buyers won't either. The numbers given on Mate Select are most definitely not correct anyway, they give a very false impression of being much lower than they actually are (due to imports for instance, as the KC do not have the background and therefore class such dogs as 0% even if they are not). My breed is listed as something ridiculous like 2.2 % when in reality most are 10 % or way above. My next planned litter will be around 14 % and I have very good reasons for it and don't worry for a moment about buyers tuning away because of that -if they do they are not the right kind of buyers anyway.  What matters isn't numbers but looks, temperament, health etc.

With the best will in the world it is not possible to meet every potential match before considering them on paper first.

Maybe not if they are abroad, but if they are in the UK, I can't see why not? You either travel to the owner's home or arrange to meet up at a show/working competition/whatever.

As to why some people advertise stud dogs -different mind sets (and maybe different values) I suppose (could also be a simple way of letting people know the dog they have seen around at shows IS available), but plenty wouldn't advertise or look for a stud that way.

> Can I ask, as someone who won't ever breed but just curious?  In the world of horses I was told if you like the look of a stallion use it's sire.  Does this apply to stud dogs?  If you like the look of a dog do you ever think it would be better to use the dog that produced that dog?

Yes that is also said in the world of dogs too...I have liked a dog but not liked its sire so it does depend on liking the sire too. One also has to remember that the dam plays a part in it too....

In the world of horses I was told if you like the look of a stallion use it's sire.
Yes, after all, it's the sire who has produced the dog that you might like BUT
I've found from experience that a line is only as good as the strength of quality of its bitch line.  A quality sire can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!