Hi all

I've had my Cockerchon pups since they were 8 weeks old. Brother and sister, which I now have been told not such a great idea, and they have been great. Training well, good recalls etc......until now.  ?Is it just a teenage phase??

They are in a large kitchen during the day so have plenty of space to play and trot around but have started taking things off the sides and ripping to shreds, eating chairs and skirting boards, and generally being destructive.

They have never shown much interest in toys, prefering to drag everything into the garden and leave it there. I do put the toys back into the kitchen during the day when we are at work but they still prefer to chew chairs etc. They are not usually left for more than 4 hours and today was only 2 and still they ate a chair.

Please, any idea's to help. They have been so good. Whats changed? What can I do? I dont want to crate them during the day as they are crated at night.

We are back at puppy training where they are perfect pupils, typical kids just cant behave at home.

Thank you

Angie

Whats a cockerchon ????

How old are they now?

First of all I would suggest seperating when out/during the night. Provide things such as stuffed kongs (as long as they dont resource guard), make sure they are well exercised and stimulated before leaving them (obviously exercise is age dependant).

What is your daily routine with them?

Not sure what your dogs are I assume some sort of crossbreed, knowing the breed may help understand the behaviour have you asked the breeder for help and if the behaviour is normal. 6 months is a bit young to start teenage behaviour but it depends on what they are the age they may hit puberty.

Have you been walking and training them separately, if not I would start to do so now, they will now need increasing exercise and attention to keep the mind occupied. When you leave them it may be best to leave them in their own cage with a stuffed kong or something simular it could be that they are encouraging one another in this destruction.

Hi Drover

A Cockerchon is Cocker Spaniel x Bichon Frise. A lovely mix of dogs.

They are up at about 5.45am, walked for 20mins and then have access to the garden and fed their breakfast.

at between 8am and 9am they are shut in the kitchen till lunchtime when my daughter comes home to let them out and give them lunch. She is home with them all afternoon till I arrive at 4pm to take them out for a walk, 45mins, usually off lead and give them their tea.

They play during the evening, settling down around 8-9pm and then are put to bed in their crate at 10pm. Sleep all night like little angels.

So why now the destruction?

I will look at getting them a stuffed kong each and maybe a stuffed bone, my only worry is that this would make them need the toilet before we arrive home.

Angie

They are indeed two lovely breeds but together they make a high energy breed mixed with one not particularly known for their bidability.   Assuming the breeding was not accidental I think the breeder is shameless both in producing this cross and letting you have two together.  I don't think I would count on her for any help at this point either.

> between 8am and 9am they are shut in the kitchen till lunchtime

What is lunchtime? 12? 1?  Four or five hours is a long time to leave growing puppies.  When they are younger they may sleep but now they are older they are probably restless, bored and raring to go when they are let out of their kitchen.  I think you may have to look at getting them a break midmorning.

Incidently the bitch may come into season any time now.  Do you have a plan in place for that?

As you already crate them at night I don't see whats wrong in crating them for a few hrs when you are out during the day. As to the destruction,it may well be play between the two of them. They don't know they are destroying things,to them it's simply a great game. Crate them till they are old enough to be trusted.

Stooge

We do indeed have a plan in place for Tilly if she starts to come into season, Alfie will be going to stay at grandads house! Alfie is being catrated at the beginning of December so we are just hoping we get to then. They have just both been checked by the vet and neither show signs of puberty yet.

Since having bought the pups we have found lots of other breeders of tis cross and information on them. None of which talk about high energy, in fact they state that the Bichon half calms the Cocker half down! Tilly seems more Cocker, always full of beans and very clever, Alfie enjoys a run but likes to sleep just as much.

They are keen learners and so well at training but Tilly has decided that she only sits on her terms and that she doesnt do down at all.

Angie

I think it would  be unfair to crate them for most of the day as well as the night. 

You simply need to dog proof, and provide alternatives to occupy them. 

They have gone from infants to the equivalent of young children who would if left to their own devices, draw on your walls etc. Play with the washing up liquid etc.

You need to pup proof the kitchen, block off danger areas like flexes,a nd remove anything from reach.

Put the chairs with legs that are chewable into another room and spray any likely chewing areas with biter spray.

Then leave them with some interesting toys.  You can put some dog food into a plastic bottle to act a s a home made treat dispenser let them have a box ans some small cardboard packets to shred etc.

Spending some few minutes before leaving them doing some brain work should also help.

Unfortunately two is trouble squared as they are more focused on each other and will egg each other into mischief.

When giving them a kong you would reduce the amount of their breakfast, so they get the same amount of food (or equivalent) just spread over breakfast and their kong....it shouldn't increase the risk of them needing to toilet more.  Also, if your daughter is at home with them in the afternoon before you get home then this shouldn't be a major issue. 

I have cockers and tbh, I always crate them (up to around 18mths) during the day if I am going out.....they may look angelic but can be very destructive if bored.  Is there any way you could increase the time of their morning exercise, preferably offlead, and perhaps 10/15 minutes each of clicker training etc, just so as to ensure they are both mentally and physically tired.  Remember, they have just slept for nearly 8 hrs, been up for 2/3 hrs then you are asking them to keep themselves amused for 4/5 hrs.  If I was to leave my current 1yr old girl out of her crate in these crcumstances then yes, I would come home to various things chewed etc.  If I was to crate her with a kong then she will amuse herself with that or, more often than  not, will snooze. 

*edit* have you considered not crating them at night?  I don't crate mine as I find that they simply sleep.  It is during the day I find the crate is more useful.

> None of which talk about high energy, in fact they state that the Bichon half calms the Cocker half down!

if only things were that simple.  It has taken many generations and decades of breeding a specific breed to have more or less predictable characteristics.

Mixing two breeds is a complete gamble and it would be most rare to get a smooth positive blending of traits, unless the breeds were of similar nature anyway.

For example two terriers crossed would still give you typcial terrier traits but with more variation than with a pure bred one, similar with gundogs.

Mating a toy breed with a Gundog which are they supposed to take after?  What ia the purpose that the cross will achieve that the purebred parents would not more reliably?

A total mongrel is least likely to have very strongly differentiated traits in any direction, but a straight cross may still possess very strong and possibly conflicting breed traits.

> Alfie is being catrated at the beginning of December so we are just hoping we get to then.

Just to warn you it ahs been proven that a dog sired puppies months after castration, so it woudl be wise to send him to Grandads  When the bitch comes in season regardless of whether he has already been castrated.

As they are already 6 months I would start doing the white tissue test each morning with the girl to pick up on the first sign of blood, as she could come in any time now.

Do you know if they are from working or show cocker lines? 

> Since having bought the pups we have found lots of other breeders of tis cross and information on them. None of which talk about high energy, in fact they state that the Bichon half calms the Cocker half down!

I'm sure they do!  They are not going to down sell their product. :)

I see Brainless has explained extremely well what I was going to say about this cross breed, well any designer cross breeding really.
  
Another issue you will need to be sure to get to grips with is the grooming.  They will only now be developing their coats and will need more intense daily grooming now to prevent the matts that will inevitably form between clipping dates thanks to the combination of the fast growing profuse coat of the cocker with the non shedding, curly locks of the Bichon Frise.

> Do you know if they are from working or show cocker lines?

I'll put money on a working bitch.  The easiest, cheapest brood to get hold of.
Sorry Ponge, my annoyance is not directed at you, you understand :)

im not going to be much  help im afraid,but my puppy gwen was a model pup-never chewed anything,never once did any puppy biting and was a doddle to house train,no trouble at night.Then,at seven months she started to eat my settee,and the post,which included books and dvds,so i had to eat my words!it didnt last long though,so hopefully your two  may be going through whatever she went through,and will behave again soon!best wishes!

Alfie is being catrated at the beginning of December so we are just hoping we get to then.

Would think this far too young to consider castrating your dog particularly now I know what breeds were used in this cross the chances of coat followed by skin problems will be quite high. As you have the ability to send him away whilst the bitch is in season I would do so until they are both mature and then you can spay the bitch although it would probably be best to keep them both intact if possible.

Going back to your training did you do this one at a time and do you walk them one at a time if not I think you should start now, whilst they are together they will be bonding to each other and ignoring you so one on one training and exercise is imperative if you want two well behaved dogs, the Cocker in particular require lots of exercise both physical and mental and the Bichon is not known for it's retiring nature either, it is a happy active little dog that loves to be with people so neither breed will tolerate being left for too long on their own without getting into mischief they need to be entertained and their brains occupied.

>Would think this far too young to consider castrating your dog

Totally agree with Nova.  If pup is 6 months now, castrating in December is far, far too young.  And no benefit to the dog.  It is more beneficial to spay a bitch.  But, naturally, after she has had a season. 

Hi Angie

Did you get the two of them thinking they'd be company for one another whilst you are at work?  As you are finding out that's rarely the case but you are also entering a terrible phase - they're getting bored and want to play and need more mental stimulation than they are currently getting.  You cannot expect them to sleep whilst you are out - they've been asleep all night and now they need to be exploring, playing and learning new stuff.  However, without you there to shape their activities they are simply learning to keep themselves amused and it's (almost inevitably) destructive.  Chewing stuff is fun!!

If I'm being perfectly honest I don't think it fair to expect two such young puppies to be on their own for this length of time - it's ok for some adults but it shouldn't be the norm.  Most dogs like to be with their people and it's vital for puppies to receive regular training and reinforcement if you want them to grow into happy, confident, and well trained dogs that can be left from time to time.

If you are going to persevere I'd recommend you get someone else in to visit them during the morning and make sure your daughter is working appropriately with them in the afternoon.  Just being in the house will probably not be enough and might be causing problems if she happens to find the destruction when she gets in.  However much she tries to hide it they'll probably be picking up on her annoyance or frustration.  I'd also strongly recommend you work on creating a safe environment for them whilst you aren't at home.  The sort of damage you talk about is not only irritating for you it might be dangerous for them.  Use baby gates, large play pens or crates if necessary and do keep the two of them separate whilst you aren't around to supervise.

Finally I agree with the others, 6 months is far too early to castrate your boy.  I really wish someone had been able to give you better advice before you bought them.  The breeder (and I use the term loosely) should never have allowed it.  It can work, and there are always a few posters who can testify to that, but it's far more common that 2 siblings is a recipe for disaster.

> Do you know if they are from working or show cocker lines?

I was going to ask the same myself... Not forgetting the third option of American Cocker.

I have always thought Bichons to be dainty dogs having seen them on a table at a show being prepared for show . Our neighbour over the course of 4 years has had 4 rescue ones( has 3 now as an elderly one passed away)...apparently there are a few in rescue .They are anything but dainty .They are so noisy ,strong , independent , robust , and energetic ,and one has bitten another neighbour twice , once on a flexi , where it suddenly pulled and bit an ankle , and one bit someone's thumb.
Both cockers and Bichons suffer with PRA / cataracts and I doubt in this case if the parents have been tested.

Thanks everyone for the messages.

Yes we did them together so they would be company for each other. My husband is a teacher and has long holidays so when he's off the dogs are busy all day, but I guess that doesn't help when he is back at work.

The dogs get walked on the beach, the park and with other dogs and horses at weekends and evenings, it really is those few hours during the day.  I thought we were giving them a good fun life.  My goldie passed away at 14 in June and he thouroughly enjoyed his life.  But I guess young dogs together are making their own fun, their own way.

They really are lovely dogs and on the whole very good. As usual, its the owners that are at fault.

>But I guess young dogs together are making their own fun, their own way.

That's it in a nutshell. :-) "The devil makes work for idle hands (or paws!) to do". If their activities ae being overseen by a person it won't happen, and if they can't be overseen they need to be kept in a more limited area where destruction simply isn't possible. They're doing exactly what you hoped for - keeping each other company!

>They really are lovely dogs and on the whole very good. As usual, its the owners that are at fault.

Don't be so hard on yourself - you didn't know any better when you bought them, and now you are doing your best to fix the problems. A lot of it is probably just the 'Kevin' adolescent stage, and will pass as they mature. Keep up with the separate training, the cocker half will need brains exercised as well as bodies, and probably the bichon half too, they seem pretty intelligent little dogs, just stubborn.

> As usual, its the owners that are at fault.

Not at all.  I think you were badly advised by the breeder.

Your puppies will go through various phases until they are fully grown up. These will include mouthing, chewing, being destructive, becoming more independent, forgetting things they have always know, etc. These phases last from a few days to a few weeks or months!

I agree that getting two puppies wasn't the best of ideas as it is definitely more than double the work, but it sounds like you are prepared to do whatever it takes to make it work! Lots of individual training and walking is vital to make sure they bond well with you and are responsive.

6 months sounds about the right for them to start this sort of behaviour. They become more independent, have more energy, are keen to do things all the time etc. The result is that if they are not entertained accordingly, they will find entertainment themselves, which you are finding out now.
First of all, personally I would crate them for these few hours (4 hours seems ok to me to leave them on their own per day provided that they are exercised mentally and physically adequately). This will teach them to settle and sleep whilst the owners are out rather than go on a rampage and make that a really active time!

If you prefer them to stay as they are, then you need to provide stuff for them to do like stuffed fronzen kongs, card board boxes with treats in them, large rawhide bones etc. Stuff that will keep them busy for a while, satisfies their chewing instinct and also tires them out for a while.
At the same time you will need to puppy proof your kitchen so they can't get hold of anything that they shouldn't, including wires, heavy and toxic stuff on worktops etc. Even if you think they can't reach it, I would still put it away somewhere safe because they grow quicker than you think and what they can't reach one day, they might be able to the next.

As others have mentioned, cocker spaniels and bichons are both very active breeds, so if they need to be left alone during the day, you need to put the work in when you are around. That includes adequate exercise with plenty of mental stimulation; and you are already doing training classes as you mention which is great too.

Re neutering: I am the odd one out here, I would probably have your boy neutered now being that he is six months old. And before anyone tells me all the reasons for not doing that (and I fully accept their opinions and decisions in that respect), I am fully aware of all the pros and cons and have decided that unless there is a particular medical or behavioural reason not to, all my dogs are neutered at around this age. So I would simply suggest that you do your own research into the pros and cons, and then make your mind up and decide what is best for your particular dogs and your particular situation.

Whatever your views on castration I think the possible effect on the coat would rule it out in this case. It is likely to require a massive amount of care anyway without running the risk of castration particularly early castration.

It is likely to require a massive amount of care anyway without running the risk of castration particularly early castration.

Has there been any research (or even some compelling anecdotal evidence) into whether early castration affects coat more than later castration? Before I had my American cocker neutered (who is in full coat), I looked everywhere for information on this, but couldn't find any. I would be very interested to find out if there is any indication one way or the other!

> Has there been any research (or even some compelling anecdotal evidence) into whether early castration affects coat more than later castration?

I don't know of any and I don't see how the timing of it should make any difference. 

The way I see it is one or other of them must be neutered at some stage so the main thing is the owner is going to have at least one and probably two coats that are going to need considerable care and attention so there is a need to be in control of a good grooming routine right from the start anyway.

Has there been any research (or even some compelling anecdotal evidence) into whether early castration affects coat more than later castration?

Not that I know of but there is evidence that it effects the coat and this one is likely to be a problem anyway. If you castrate before the adult coat is fully established it may well be worse but my advice would be not to castrate at all unless there is a medical reason for it somewhere along the way.

>Has there been any research (or even some compelling anecdotal evidence) into whether early castration affects coat more than later castration? Before I had my American cocker neutered (who is in full coat), I looked everywhere for information on this, but couldn't find any. I would be very interested to find out if there is any indication one way or the other!

I would guess it makes no difference with the age. My American cocker (George says hi!) was neutered at about 3.5 years, and his coat altered dramatically - for the better in this case as it was rather sparse verging on field coat, and is now lovely and full, but I shudder to think what it would do to an already full coat. I know it does horrible things to Cavalier coats, and I don't plan to have my girls done unless for health reasons!

> Has there been any research (or even some compelling anecdotal evidence) into whether early castration affects coat more than later castration? Before I had my American cocker neutered (who is in full coat), I looked everywhere for information on this, but couldn't find any. I would be very interested to find out if there is any indication one way or the other!

One of ours has had numerous problems since neutering, feminising, charged by bitches & males often attempting to mount & thinning of his coat with little left on his underside, armpits & groin. Whether coincidental but skin issues have been dramatic, along with glands (no problems before), waxy ears (dealt with daily, previously weekly & I'm told often goes with gland issues).

I don't have the knowledge to verify the background of research or reports, but Goggle adverse effects & plenty appear. Looking through recently, even came across one that inferred neutered dogs have more adverse effects from yearly vaccinations that entire. Yes realise you can always find some study or other to support any issue but after the experience with one of ours, however small the risk I would not neuter again unless for a medical problem.

> even came across one that inferred neutered dogs have more adverse effects from yearly vaccinations that entire.

That isn't so surprising after all you remove a large part of the chemical/hormonal system when you neuter, and the immune system is part of this delicate balance.  Certainly Thyroiditis seems mroe common in neuterd animals, and that is an immune system issue.

> That isn't so surprising after all you remove a large part of the chemical/hormonal system when you neuter

Yes & someone (I think it might have been you) posted recently that in neutering you take away the hormones/drive that give a dog the presence of a male (it was probably worded better) & never again would I have a castrato in preference to an entire male.

Hormones are natural steroids and there can't help to be some effect if there has been interference with the system, sometimes it is not noticed and at others it is devastating. The age that the hormones are remove has an effect in so much the the lack of balance in the hormonal system will have an accumulative effect much as the first few times you come into contact with something you are all right but the next time you have an allergic reaction.

Often people will claim there is no effect but this may well be because they have no way of knowing what the dog would have been had he or she been left with the hormonal system intact. Even if left till the animal is 11 years old effects will be seen by those who know the animal well. Young farm animals are neutered in order to produce more meat and at one time chickens were given chemicals to produce the same effect as castration to produce a Capon, a large well covered bird at a young age.

Now let's not be overly dramatic here -neutering of a male dog, when done at a decent age, can most definitley have advantages for the pet owner, and t doesn't have to have bad effects -although of course you will never know for certain in advance. I have 3 entire Papillon bitches that live with 3 Papillon dogs and one Cavalier dog. One of the Papillons and the Cavalier is neutered, and the younger male Pap will be too. Leaves just one entire dog. The fullest coat of them all is the entire dog, none have a difficult coat, in particular not the Cavalier. But more than anything (quite apart from the practicalities with bitches in season) the entire dog is a total pain to live with. He stinks because he always manages to get some wee on his coat, and the smell is strong because he is entire -he needs at least weekly baths, to stay smell free really he'd need twice weekly baths. My Cavalier did the same until neutered, then it stopped. The entire dog cocks his leg indoors everywhere, all the time.  In fact today I've finally decided I'm going to have to resort to bellybands as I can't put up with it anymore. I can almost live with wiping pee off the bottom of the furnitre (thankfully leather!), bottom of bookcases (all have had glass doors put on) and on the floor, but when you sit down on the couch to discover he has stood on the couch and peed up against the back of it -no thanks! It is very obviously just the entire dog as well (and no, I don't currently have any in season bitches) as if you have been away and come home and he has still been here there is pee everywhere, if you come home and have had the dog with you, there is nothing.

Now one dog of mine that HAS developed a nightmare coat after being neutered (which was done at 3 years) is the Golden.

Yet, the one thing that is statistically proven (unlike most of the arguments for or against neutering which is mostly just anecdotal or personal opinion) is that neutered dogs live longer! Noone quite knows why, but they do. So it can't be all bad and it means that plenty of processes in the dog must improve by removing the hormones otherwise longevity would be affected and not improved!

Also, something that most people don't know: testes are not the only gland that produce testosterone, the adrenalin glands do too which are obviously not removed when castrating. So neutering removes MOST of the testosterone circulating in the body, it doesn't remove all (which might explain why some male dogs have much bigger changes than others after neutering, perhaps depending on how much the adrenalin glands produce???).

Also, it is sometimes mentioned that spaying a female makes them more aggressive... whenmost of the testosterone is produced in the ovaries which are obviously removed during the operation. Again, it might depend on how much testosterone is produced by the adrenalin glands as to how a bitch may be affected by it, but the influence can't be drastic in most bitches as the adrenalin glands only produce small amounts.

one thing that is statistically proven

Details of paper please. My experience show the opposite but I would like to see the paper of the study so I know how many were in the study and when it was done.

Several studies, actually. I'll go find them when I have a moment. :-)

Thank you Lurcher Girl for your words of support.

I have puppy proofed the kitchen and we are spending as much time as possible playing, working and exercising the little ones.

My daughter has been home this week so they have had company all day and not needed to eat the kitchen.  Also started working on retrieve which is going well and seems to wear them out too.

I brush their long wirey coats twice daily and they are bathed weekly or more as its often wet and muddy and they love to swim.

As for when to have their operations, everyone has a different opinion, even vets, its all so very confusing. Will keep thinking on this one for now.

Try keeping a diary for a while - put some paper on the fridge and add timings to your training and playing activities and their toiletting.  You'll probably find you start to notice patterns of sleep and wake time (usually hinged around mealtimes).  The trick with puppies is to preempt their highly active zoomies and head them off with structured activities designed to stretch their brains and bodies.

It sounds daft, and a bit time consuming, but I can assure it works.  Dogs, and puppies, have a natural rhythm and if you can work with that you'll probably be able to avoid their hyper active times clashing with your absences.  It's much, much harder with two - but still possible if you can take the time and put the effort in.