> The people who imported a pup from me to Holland went through France (not allowed) via Channel Tunnel, and no-one checked.

Ditto mine too. 12 week old puppy collected then driven through the tunnel then onto Netherlands.

A friend of mine who lives in France, brought her pregnant bitch to England where she had her pups then brought her back with two of the pups that she wanted to keep. As far as I am aware the pups were only about 8 weeks old.

I'm sure I read somewhere that puppies accompanied by the mother are allowed to travel with no restrictions in france.

> You can not do the  Belgium route as the ferry company is not registered with PETS,

That only applies to coming into UK surely, as no other country specifies routes or points for entry.

http://www.transeuropaferries.co.uk/html/faq.html

Are not licenced to carry pets, whether such pets have ''pet passports'' or not!

People do take pups under 12 weeks into France, but the correct and only safe way is to abide by the rules, 12 weeks.

http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Pet-cats-dogs-and-ferrets-Moving

in effect though it isn't 12 weeks as they have to wait another three weeks after they are vaccinated.

"Your pet has to be at least 3 months old to travel in France otherwise you must apply for authorization to import it at the French Ministry of Agriculture, Fischeries, Food and rural Affairs (Animal Welfare Office) (See address below)."

So it is possible to apply for a licence under 3 months, what makes anyone think this is problematic? or unlikely to be granted?.

Something similar was needed for the pup of mine that went to Spain as hand luggage by air at 8 weeks.  He was home in 4 or 5 hours from leaving my house.

It seems that France do not budge from the 12 week rule, which of course with the rabies vaccs brings it up to a minimum of fifteen weeks.
Many vets will not vaccinate at 12 weeks, they say 3 months!!! And 12 weeks is not 3 months. You would need to need to shop around for one that does (mine did it at 12 weeks).
France used to allow entry to unvaccinated pups if they had a microchip, passport (which you can still get without having the rabies vaccine) and a letter signed from the breeder saying the pup was coming from a rabies free country and that it had been kept at their home and nowhere else except the vets. This however has now stopped.
This shows the penalties imposed if you are caught
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.douane.gouv.fr/page.asp%3Fid%3D46&ei=B9K5TrztFset8gPQgtCyBw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB0Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dimportation%2Bde%2Bcarnivores%2Bdomestiques%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D582%26prmd%3Dimvns
(scroll to the bottom)

Why are the French allowed to circumvent the EU rules ? We are a rabies free country and as such do not pose a threat to the health and safety of their animal and human population. On the other hand, I feel that doing away with compulsory blood testing following rabies vaccination is a retrograde step. Two of my medium pastoral breed guys failed the test first time around ( father and daughter ) which meant starting the process over again. They passed following a second course of two vaccinations. I always insist of two vaccinations now and will continue to blood test. All that needed to go was the compulsory 6 month wait.

The tick and parasite treatments certainly needed revaluation. This has become a bit of a 'gravy train' for French vets. I've been charged up to 60 Euros per dog just for a 5 min 'consultation, a Drontal tablet and Frontline 'sprinkle. all of which I do regularly 'chez moi' ,and a couple of stamps on the passport. I know they are reviewing the need for Tape worm treatment before re entry to the UK but why can't we be trusted to sort this out with our vets here before we go or is there a crucial time issue here ?

> This shows the penalties imposed if you are caught
> [url=undefined]http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.douane.gouv.fr/page.asp%3Fid%3D46&ei=B9K5TrztFset8gPQgtCyBw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB0Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dimportation%2Bde%2Bcarnivores%2Bdomestiques%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D582%26prmd%3Dimvns[/url]
>  (scroll to the bottom)

I have only skimmed the doc but it refers to animals brought in from non eu countries.

The only reason why the UK is vulnerable to a rabies outbreak, and why the titre test was necessary, is because most dogs aren't vaccinated against rabies.

In all the other European countries vaccination is mandatory. Portugal hasn't had a case of rabies in more than 30 years.

Instead of having expensive titre tests and bending over backwards with intricate border controls (for us is quite impossible since we have land borders), we have just been vaccinating our dogs every year for a long time. Puppies get the mandatory rabies vaccine at 3 months, and get an yearly booster.

> Why are the French allowed to circumvent the EU rules ?

As I understand it this is France falling in with EU rules.
 
I do not blame any country in taking their own steps and not relying on another countries measures alone.  As you say dropping the titre testing may be exposing us to risk now.

I am not sure what all the fuss is about this only means a matter of a very few weeks continuing at the breeders home. 

> Instead of having expensive titre tests and bending over backwards with intricate border controls (for us is quite impossible since we have land borders), we have just been vaccinating our dogs every year for a long time.

Having the advantage of being an island, I don't think the UK needs to take that route, certainly not at present, bearing in mind that very, very few dogs travel over the borders and would ever need these expensive titre tests.

It would be very unfair for the average family to have to pay for rabies vaccinations for their dog just to save the expense and trouble for the tiny few.

>It would be very unfair for the average family to have to pay for rabies vaccinations for their dog just to save the expense and trouble for the tiny few.

Unfortunately it seems it'll come to that. Initial tests on a recently-vaccinated dog that was pts in quarantine (due to its passport being incorrectly completed) for an unrelated condition has shown positive for rabies. Further tests are being carried out.

I have lived in England, and had my dogs vaccinated while living there. It is quite expensive compared to here, where you can go to the council vet and have them vaccinated and microchipped (also mandatory) for 15 euros, and have the yearly booster for under 10 euros.

The UK is a rabies free country, and has been for a long time, but travelling abroad is becoming increasly common, so maintaining that status will become more and more difficult. It speaks volumes that a country that is considered rabies free has had more cases of rabies in the last ten years than countries that don't have that status.

>It speaks volumes that a country that is considered rabies free has had more cases of rabies in the last ten years than countries that don't have that status.

Where are your figures for that? The dog in quarantine came from Spain, which claims to have had no cases of rabies for years.

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=575

Human rabies cases in Europe since 2000.

Not sure what you are trying to do with the statistics there :) but one case of a wildlife handler who declined to have the vaccinations or take other precautions generally recommended for his profession does not seem a reasonable arguement for suggesting that the UKs defences, up to now, have not been as effective as other countries.

At the end of the day, we must respect and abide by the laws of the country we intend to take our dogs to, just as we expect visitors to the UK to abide by ours. They are there for a reason!
Just this week I have had visitors from Europe who travelled here with one dog, they went to their own vet for the flea and tick treatment, but were rather hoping that the products would just be handed to them and the passport stamped, fortunately the vet was strict and went through the correct procedure.
I would be looking at informing any French clients, not to expect a pup beore they reach 4 months old.

Not sure what you are trying to do with the statistics there  but one case of a wildlife handler who declined to have the vaccinations or take other precautions generally recommended for his profession does not seem a reasonable arguement for suggesting that the UKs defences, up to now, have not been as effective as other countries.

I'm not trying to do anything. I just find that the pet mobility scheme changes that are coming in effect in January 2012 are not going to pose any dangers to the UK, since the animals will be arriving from countries where the vaccine is mandatory, and many of them haven't had a single documented case of canine rabies for ages.

>I just find that the pet mobility scheme changes that are coming in effect in January 2012 are not going to pose any dangers to the UK, since the animals will be arriving from countries where the vaccine is mandatory, and many of them haven't had a single documented case of canine rabies for ages.

Not documented, no. The dog samples under test at the moment wasn't documented because it came from Spain via France.

There have already been cases of tick-borne diseases which we never had before, and now that animals won't need titre testing it's only a matter of time we have the next case of rabies. It truly is a disaster, and an outrage that it is being foisted upon us.

The report you have cited does not seem to share your confidence

>The main indigenous animal reservoirs are: the dog in eastern European countries and on the borders with the Middle East; the fox in central and eastern Europe; the racoon dog in northeastern Europe; and the insectivorous bat throughout the entire territory. Finally, each year, cases of animals with rabies imported from enzootic areas are reported, showing the permeability of borders and traveller's lack of consideration of the rabies risk. These importations constantly threaten the rabies-free status of terrestrial animals in western European countries and complicate the therapeutic decisions taken by physicians in the absence of information regarding the biting animal.

Do you refer to wild animals? Because the dogs are vaccinated, and most people don't go around handling wild animals. If it was such a problem would you not see a lot of human rabies?

All this worry about rabies does sound a lot like "Fog in channel; Continent cutt off"...

> The tick and parasite treatments certainly needed revaluation. This has become a bit of a 'gravy train' for French vets. I've been charged up to 60 Euros per dog just for a 5 min 'consultation,

That won't change as you still need a health certificate.  I was charged over £50 for certifying my bitch was fit to travel/fly in December to teh USA, and about the same coming back to give the tick and tape meds which I had provided myself.  Then extra £30 for the ferry for paper checking (giving me scanner to scan my dog).

Oh and it isn't 12 weeks but 3 months re when they can go to France, ditto the Rabies.

> and most people don't go around handling wild animals.

No, but their dogs are not always as wise.  I would point out again the concerns expressed in the report you quoted.

The "unwise" dogs are vaccinated. They get the first vaccine when they are 3 or 4 months old, and get a booster every year. They are not in risk of catching rabies and do not pose any risk of being vectors of the disease.

>Do you refer to wild animals? Because the dogs are vaccinated, and most people don't go around handling wild animals.

Wild animals also need to be kept free of rabies to prevent them infecting our pets; we treat many cats that have abscesses from rat-bites, for example; they would have to be quarantined.

>They get the first vaccine when they are 3 or 4 months old, and get a booster every year.

Unless they are titre tested after every booster there is no guarantee that they have immunity. We know for a fact, from the titre failures, that the rabies vaccine isn't foolproof. Rabies is one of the deadliest diseases in the world; we don't want it here.

> The "unwise" dogs are vaccinated.

Only if their owners can afford to and are willing to comply.  What are the take up rates in Southern and Eastern Europe do you know?  Or even the wealthier Northern countries come to that?

> I'm not trying to do anything. I just find that the pet mobility scheme changes that are coming in effect in January 2012 are not going to pose any dangers to the UK, since the animals will be arriving from countries where the vaccine is mandatory, and many of them haven't had a single documented case of canine rabies for ages.

Having had a bitch vaccinated against Rabies and then to fail the titre testing  simply relying on a dog being vaccinated is not enough.  We all know that in some cases vaccines do not take.

The bitch that failed had a mother who had been vaccinated for Rabies in the preceding year, so I suspect maternal antibody interference.  This is why the Rabies vaccines are now not licenced to be given to pups under three months.  In 1998 I was able to have a puppy Rabies Vaccinated at 8 weeks due to the fact that with dogs not being routinely vaccinated against Rabies in UK meant that there could, be no issue over this in a puppy whose mother had never been exposed to the Rabies vaccination. 

The half sister of the bitch who failed her titre passed her titre test, but by this time the mother had not been vaccinated for Rabies for several years.

No vaccine has a 100% rate, that's true. And even though the countries that have borders with eastern European countries can have cases of rabies in wild animals, it is certainly not widespread in wild animal populations.

As for the immune response and titre counts, studies show quite the contrary. The blood test for rabies titre count is done a short period after inoculation, because it's the time when there's a strong immune response and the levels are high. The immune system has a "memory" response after being in contact with a known pathogen, so a vaccinated dog, that 3 or 4 months after inoculation won't have a titre count high enough to pass the test, will anyway have a strong immune response in contact with the pathogen, and very high titre counts if tested at that time. (Sorry if it's very confuse, it's hard enough to explain even in my first language)

> As for the immune response and titre counts, studies show quite the contrary. The blood test for rabies titre count is done a short period after inoculation,

both the half sisters I mentioned were not titre tested until 120 days (4 months) or more after they were vaccinated as i wanted them to be compliant with Scandinavian countries titre testing rules in case I wanted to travel there with them.

Also our attitude to wildlife in UK would mean we would be apt to handle and help an injured or orphaned wild animal without reservation, as of course there are no worries about Rabies, and if we get bitten a Tetanus is the only inconvenience, not a series of painful injections and months of worry.

The painful injections is a pretty grim scenario. It can happen in Africa, but certainly not in western Europe. The wise thing to do would be to take the injured wild animal that bit you to a veterinary to be tested for infectious diseases.

But you are right about the attitude towards wild life and native species. In Portugal it is forbidden to touch or disturb wildlife, and you will be fined for doing so. If you find a wild animal injured you are supposed to call the Nature Conservation Institute, and they will remove it to their facilities to be treated and released in the wild afterwards.

> The wise thing to do would be to take the injured wild animal that bit you to a veterinary to be tested for infectious diseases.

Assuming you can safely kill or capture the animal without further injury to yourself, what happens if the tests prove positive?  Do they then wait for results before starting treatment (those painful injections) as even that treatment is not guaranteed is it and needs to be started as promptly as practicable as I understand it?
Better to take advantage of our Island status is seems to me.

>So it is possible to apply for a licence under 3 months, what makes anyone think this is problematic? or unlikely to be granted?.

France do not grant the licence. They could if they chose to, but they wont. I dont know why but its just how it is.

With regards to the change from January, when I spoke to someone from defra, they said there will be no need for tick treatment upon the return into the UK, but tapeworm treatment will still be needed.

My puppy buyers will be waiting until the pup is 15/16 weeks to come and collect him, they are naturally disappointed that they cant take him home earlier but it is just one of those things.

He has to be that old as he will have the rabies jab at 3 months old, and once he has had that he (or no other dog no matter their age) is able to enter france until 21 days have passed from having the rabies vacc.

>Assuming you can safely kill or capture the animal without further injury to yourself, what happens if the tests prove positive?

I imagine there would be a similar scenario to what happens in areas of France (at least until recently); all off-lead dogs are captured and taken to the pound. If the owners can't prove the dog has been vaccinated against rabies it will be destroyed. Similarly loose cats. Wildlife in the area is just shot on sight.

There was a rabies incident in Surrey in the late 60s, where a similar course of action was deployed, except for proving rabies vaccination, of course, because it didn't exist.

Why would anyone choose to believe in inflammatory newspaper headlines instead of believing that if the UK authorities decided that the titre tests are no longer necessary for pets traveling from the other EU countries, probably after much consideration and access to relevant information and studies by experts, just baffles me.

It does sound a bit like the MMR being linked to autism story, based on a very bad and unverifiable study, that put Britain in the same level as third world countries where there is no access to vaccination, regarding measles outbreaks.

> if the UK authorities decided that the titre tests are no longer necessary for pets traveling from the other EU countries,

That's the point it isn't the British authorites who have decided thsi, it has been forced on us by the EU, as they want harmonisation.

> France do not grant the licence. They could if they chose to, but they wont. I dont know why but its just how it is.
>
>

I don't understand, it says you can apply for a License, what makes you think they are not granted?

I don't believe for a second that it has been forced.  It's an evidence based decision to do it, and there seem to be enough data to support the decision. There hasn't been one case of rabies in pets travelling under the passport scheme in the EU since it started. The only people loosing from it will be the ones that profit from the outrageously expensive animal handling that you need to pay if you want to travel by air with a pet to another EU country or into the UK.

> The only people loosing from it will be the ones that profit from the outrageously expensive animal handling that you need to pay if you want to travel by air with a pet to another EU country or into the UK.

This will not change.  There was no expensive animal handling fees for an accompanied animal travelling by Air out of UK.  apart from the Health certificates each way and certifying the tick and tapes it only cost me $150 to fly out of UK and the same to return to anther EU country (I then took the ferry and car home to UK as it still worked out cheaper than flying into UK). 

Shortly after a friend paid over £1000 just to get her dog of the same breed into Heathrow, one way.

Those charges will still apply after January, and only being allowed on approved routes.

>Why would anyone choose to believe in inflammatory newspaper headlines instead of believing that if the UK authorities decided that the titre tests are no longer necessary for pets traveling from the other EU countries, probably after much consideration and access to relevant information and studies by experts, just baffles me.

It's nothing to do with newspaper headlines - in fact it hasn't been publicised at all in the press - it's to do with compliance with EU law to bring our regulations into line with mainland countries', and out of the hands of the UK authorities.

>I don't believe for a second that it has been forced. 

It's against the evidence put forward by the RCVS, for example. It's purely political and nothing to do with public or animal health.

>I don't understand, it says you can apply for a License, what makes you think they are not granted?

I spoke to a transport company in france about it, she was very helpul and said that although you can apply for derrogation, she has never heard of it being granted.

I then had a conversation with someone at the french ministry of agriculture (very hard conversation with their broken english as i speak no french) but we understood each other enough for her to tell me that they wont grant permission full stop.

Ridiculous, but nothing I can do about it.

If the passport scheme requirements become the same as they are in the other EU countries, pets traveling into the UK will sooner or later be able to travel as checked baggage instead of cargo. And that should make it significantly less expensive, and no intermediaries will be required.

> although you can apply for derrogation, she has never heard of it being granted.

I expect it has been built into the new system to allow for exceptional circumstances.

> If the passport scheme requirements become the same as they are in the other EU countries, pets traveling into the UK will sooner or later be able to travel as checked baggage instead of cargo. And that should make it significantly less expensive, and no intermediaries will be required.

I doubt it, as we have always been able to travel checked baggage to other EU countries, which also require Pet Passport checks yet Uk seem to think this requires restrictions on pets flying.

You can't even fly a dog on any commercial internal flights in the UK.

I sold a pup to a lady in Scotlans, and seh came down to visit on a cheap fligth took ehr a total of 2 1/2  hours from one house to the other, yet she coudln't fly back with her pup who had to do  a long road trip instead.

This is a v interesting thread... I had assumed that travel on the continent with a pup under 12wks would be easy, with no regulations required - and that it was just the bringing the pup into the UK side of things which would be tricky.

However, it now looks like there is some variation between European countries on whether you can import pups under 12wks.  I know of friends in the Netherlands who have just imported a pup from Hungary at 7/8wks, so presumably it is possible to import to some European countries with pups under 12wks - and it's just France holding out and being different? 

I found this info from the Dutch embassy which states:

"Puppies and kittens
The first vaccination is valid 21 days after the vaccination protocol has been finished. However, a puppy less than 3 months old is too young to vaccinate against rabies, so your puppy (only if less than 3 months) may enter the Netherlands without a rabies vaccination. The owner should be prepared to provide a written statement in which he/she, as the owner of the dog, certifies that the animal resided at the same place as its place of birth and had no contact with animals which might have been infected with rabies. This statement may have to be produced at the border.
Please note that also for animals younger than 3 month an EU pet passport supplied by an authorised veterinarian is required."  ( http://www.dutchembassyuk.org/economic/index.php?i=183 )

So it looks like you need a letter perhaps from the breeder and from yourself, saying that the pup has resided at its place of birth and also you need a Pet Passport - even though pup hasn't been vaccinated against rabies yet - I guess by way of an identification document. 

If we do import a pup, we hope to be able to rent a place in Europe for a couple of months - so we can pick pup up at 8wks and then live in Europe till pup is 15wks.  (Extended summer holiday LOL).  So I guess we do need to investigate which countries to do this in...  Is France the only one which makes this so difficult? 

Yes that is right for Holland as a friend has just exported two pups there. 

We can't really complain about France as it is illegal to bring pups under three months here and Ireland on pet passport too.

No border crossing to France has checking though?
Well where we have crossed over to France there is just a sign to say welcome to France...
Of course law is law but they don't seem to do much to make sure it is followed.
I know many pups on continent who have indeed gone to France under the age of 3 months as I don't think the breeders have been told of the different entry rule!

Yes Noora, I agree.  The people I know in the Netherlands have imported from Hungary by car/driving - so presumably they would have driven with pup through Austria, maybe Slovakia, and Germany at least - which I think have similarly strict requirements to France.  (??  Anyone know?)