Hi all,

My poor old greyhound recently had to have dental surgery and had a number of bad teeth removed. He is far happier now and I am planning on him entering the Racing and Coursing Greyhound class in Crufts. Do I have to notify the KC that he has had surgery and does not have a perfect bite, or will it be accepted that in a class for ex-racers such 'lumps and bumps' may abound?

You're just entering Crufts for the experience of going aren't you? If neither of your dogs are really show dogs anyway a few missing teeth won't make much difference :-)  If you had thoughts of winning Best in Breed then yes those missing teeth would snooker that :-)

Strictly speaking all surgery must be reported to the KC (with a vet's letter) and permission to show gained before entering any show.

Well yes sort of - as it's a class for racing bred greyhounds they have as much chance as any other racing bred dog of winning so it would certainly be nice to place in that class! :) So while I'm dying for the experience we are still competitive hehe

You should inform the kennel club and ask for permission to show.

I have two champion bitches, one lost a front tooth due to an Epulis, the other hand the large upper carnasial removed after an abscess, both have won well since this, one two CC's this year and RCC last year and the other RCC's and stakes wins.

It will do no harm to inform the kennel club and have a letter from KC in case your asked about the teeth.

> in case your asked about the teeth.

Just curious Barbara: do you ever advise the judge as they are looking at teeth or only explain if you're asked?

There were 11 racing Greyhound dogs and 13 bitches at Crufts this year so quite big classes.

thanks all, I must get a letter from the vet next time we need to visit. I had thought that in the context of the class there would be allowances made - almost like in a working dog situation where some scars or lumps etc may be present.

A large class is no reason not to try our best - all the more reason really :)

No I rather meant as it is big competition missing teeth may well matter more than it otherwise would. The bigger the class, the more picky the judge has to be.

On this note, my other greyhound is missing one tooth. She was missing it when I got her and I have no idea if it was removed/fell out/whatever. She has never had any surgery in my time with her. Should I notify the KC about this or will my lack of a vet letter/more info about the tooth hinder me in that?

So much to think about!!

Goldmali, I see what you mean and you may well be right. Racing grey's teeth are notorious for being terrible though (a diet of dry food fed in milk sees to that) so we'll have to see. Confusing business, this! :)

If a tooth has fallen out, you don't need to ask the KC for permission to show. It's only surgery you have to request permission for.  I have one dog that has lost one big tooth, I don't even know how or when, and so far no judge has even noticed. :)

Inka the reason you have to get permission to show is because your dog has had an operation that has changed his conformation and it has nothing to do with the class the dog is in or the age of the dog.

For example if you owned a dog with deformed teeth you could have them removed and say they were damaged in an accident where as in fact you have done it so no one would know that they were a fault. So no act or operation which alters the natural conformation of a dog or any part thereof my be performed except:
(a) Operations certified to the satisfaction of the General Committee
(b) The removal of dew claws of any breed
(c) Operations to prevent breeding provided such operations are notified to the Kennel Club before neutered dogs are shown.

Oh, good lord please don't tell me people have ever had teeth removed from a poor dog so it could show more successfully :( My poor dog was in bits after his operation for a day or two. Horrible to see. He is far happier now though with a healthy mouth, poor pet.

I don't think my vet has any experience/interest in showing so I guess I'm just asking her to write a note and stamp it saying that he required the surgery?

Oh, good lord please don't tell me people have ever had teeth removed from a poor dog so it could show more successfully

Very much doubt it but they could have faulty conformation repaired or amended (for the good of the dog) and then show which would be unfair so you have to report the operation and then you are either given the permission to show or you are not.

I don't think my vet has any experience/interest in showing so I guess I'm just asking her to write a note and stamp it saying that he required the surgery?

Could be wrong as I have never done it but I think you write to the Kennel Club and tell them what has been done and if they want more information or conformation they will contact your vet. However I may be wrong and I am sure some one will tell us if I am.

God, it seems pretty unfair if they can refuse a dog permission to show because it required surgery which was then completed...

> Oh, good lord please don't tell me people have ever had teeth removed from a poor dog so it could show more successfully :-(

No, but they may have surgery done for other reasons such as a malformed bite causing pain or difficulty eating and then decide, well it does make him look better :)

Hmm minefield! confused!

God, it seems pretty unfair if they can refuse a dog permission to show because it required surgery which was then completed...
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Why do you think it unfair - a dog should be a good example of it's breed and have conformation that is fit for purpose and health, if people have have this amended by operation and then show the dog that is what I would call unfair

> God, it seems pretty unfair if they can refuse a dog permission to show because it required surgery which was then completed...

Dog showing is all about evaluating the best dogs for breeding therefore it would not be a good thing to be able to show a dog that has had a mouth fault obscured, for instance, that may then recur in his offspring.

Well, I don't consider that he had a faulty mouth. He had a tumour removed and some bad teeth around it. Greyhound trainers are notorious for feeding their dogs a milky/soft diet and in my experience with greyhound rescues and greyhound vets, yearly or more dentals that require teeth to be removed are par for the course. That doesn't equate with having a fault from the start.

I can see the logic in this for standard breed classes but if Crufts are offering a class specifically for ex-racing and coursing dogs, most of whom will have come from adoption centres etc, I think facts or possibilities like this should be considered, as a lot of these dogs will be neutered/spayed for one, and also may have old scars/poor teeth etc.

Nova, I would call it 'insane' if people are willing to have their dogs operated upon to obscure faults. Greyhounds are notoriously bad with anaesthetic so having to put one under on any occassion is terrifying enough as it is. :-/

> Well, I don't consider that he had a faulty mouth. He had a tumour removed and some bad teeth around it.

This is the sort of detail your vet can supply which could well mean you would get permission to show.

I does not matter than many in the classes may be neutered, their purpose is still to evaluate the dog and this may be considered by some in their breeding plans for working dogs.

Nova, I would call it 'insane' if people are willing to have their dogs operated upon to obscure faults.

Who said anything about operating for obscure faults, I know of no vet who would perform an unnecessary operation and I can't think where you are getting such ideas from. You asked a question as to why it had to be reported if a dog had anything done that altered their natural conformation and I told you, no mention was made of performing unnecessary operations - even my teeth example would be for the good of the dog deformed teeth would cause damage to the mouth so would need removing but no matter how beneficial it is to the dogs good it is still an alteration to the way the dog was naturally and has to be reported and you would no doubt be refused permission to show if it were for this reason.

In the case of your dog the operation was because of a tumour and you will no doubt be granted permission to show.

Thanks Stooge, I'll get on to the vet this evening.

I just hope they don't refuse to grant it because at the end of the day, his mouth certainly looks worse now than it did before - he would have no advantage over any other dog with LESS teeth. I'll be very disappointed if we can't go now, was really looking forward to the experience with my 'baby'. Wonder can you bring Not for Competition dogs to Crufts if worst comes to worst as my other dog will be going with us to show anyway!

Hi Nova, can't figure out how to quote here - sorry!

I thought this comment ''Dog showing is all about evaluating the best dogs for breeding therefore it would not be a good thing to be able to show a dog that has had a mouth fault obscured, for instance, that may then recur in his offspring'' was inferring that operations may be done to cover up faults. Obviously my dog's operation has given him more faults than it's taken away bless him but he's much happier for it. It was a non cancerous tumour that apparently is quite common but needed to be removed nonetheless, and teeth with it.

Inka I did not write that so I can't tell you what the author intended.

I know Nova, thinks we've crossed wires a bit here! :)

> ''Dog showing is all about evaluating the best dogs for breeding therefore it would not be a good thing to be able to show a dog that has had a mouth fault obscured, for instance, that may then recur in his offspring'' was inferring that operations may be done to cover up faults.

That was my comment. Not sure why you would think it inferred that as I had already said it would be likely the operation would have been done for other reasons but nevertheless it could obscure a fault that may be important in breeding choices. I hope it is clear now :)

AS i say - this is a minefield for me! I do understand where you guys are coming from and thanks again for your advice.

Inka - not complicated really - if you wish to show

(a) you are not allowed to have operations done on your dog for cosmetic reasons only or any necessary ones that change the conformation or movement unless caused by an accident

(b) you are not allowed to do anything that will change your dogs natural conformation or colour

to make sure this does not happen

(a) you have to ask permission to show if you have any operation performed on a dog you wish to show (you can guess at what the general committee will decide but can not know until they reply to you)

(b) you can't dye or other wise change the way your dog looks this is checked by spot checks and is not of course a permanent matter as you can show again when the dye grows out or you brush out the chalk that you left in the coat.

I understand that and basically I do agree, just in my circumstances I will just be disappointed if I can't show my boy because of this dental procedure but that's life. I googled anyway and it was an Epulis he had, grim looking business. I will be asking the vet to write a letter about it this evening and posting it over asap. Does anyone know to whom I address the letter in the KC?

Could be wrong as I have never done it but I think you write to the Kennel Club and tell them what has been done and if they want more information or conformation they will contact your vet.

No you do have to send a vet's letter at the time. Then not enter the dog until the letter granting permission has been received.

Thanks Goldmail I was not sure.

Wonder can you bring Not for Competition dogs to Crufts if worst comes to worst as my other dog will be going with us to show anyway!

No you can't.

Does anyone know to whom I address the letter in the KC?

Just send it to the usual KC address, to whom it may concern. In 2009 it was a Simone Cooper that dealt with my request but I've no idea if that would be the same now. You could always call the office to ask.

The Aylesbury address?

God, just thinking... the entry for Crufts will no doubt open prior to me receiving a response from the KC granting or refusing Permission to Show... Do I enter him anyway or wait? Yikes!

No the London address.

It doesn't take very long to get the letter back giving you permission, you have plenty of time. :)

Having once had a bitch loose the tip of her tail (not noticeable when curled) and found that it affected placings when I pointed it out before judging.

I now don't point it out, and only do so if it is mentioned, which it never has been, wit the teeth, though I would imagine it is noticeable, especially the front tooth..

With the teeth, the front tooth was lost when Jozi was already a Veteran of 7 1/2, and Lexi lost hers at nearly 6 years old, so I suppose judges may just assume loss due to age, and not question?

Lexi has won 2CC's this year, but neither report has been in, so no way of knowing if it was mentioned.

Don't think if it were noticed and they discounted it a judge would mention it in a critique, mind you ours has never been the type of breed where judges go in for counting teeth, if it appears that the teeth have the correct bite the number are of no importance, providing they have enough to eat.

Hi Inka,
nothing informative to add as I'm a novice too - just wondering how a racing greyhound qualifies for Crufts?

I hope all goes well re. the teeth dilemma - I can add, with experience in the smaller hounds, that teeth removal seems to make a huge difference to them - much perkier/happier,  and SO much nicer when they give you a big houndy kiss!

Good luck with your entry - your dogs (see 'a critique for me') are lovely!

Thanks Saffron! Yep he is FAR happier since the op, it's made a big difference! :)

Crufts hold a specific class for racing and coursing greyhounds so they don't have to qualify in the traditional way that the show greyhounds there will have. They'll be in a separate class.

The schedule is no online at fossedata :)

> just wondering how a racing greyhound qualifies for Crufts?
>

SPECIAL OPEN RACING OR LURE COURSING (Greyhounds or Whippets only) -- For Kennel
Club registered Whippets which have either (a) won a course with a club affiliated to the National
Coursing Club (the name of the club must be given on the entry form), or (b) during the year
ending at the closing date for Crufts entries, won a race with a club affiliated to the Whippet Club
Racing Association (the name of the club and date of the race must be given on the entry form and
current W.C.R.A. Passport produced on the day), or (c) during the year ending at the closing date
for Crufts entries, won a lure course with one of the following clubs, N.W.C.C., British Sighthound
Field Association or the Sussex Longdog Association; and for Kennel Club registered Greyhounds
which must also be registered with the G.B.G.B. or the N.C.C.

This is just for the racing/coursing classes, if they want to enter the other classes a racing/coursing dog has to qualify the same as any other dog

Hi Inka, the show I am associated with run a class for Racing/Coursing Greyhounds and it is interesting to watch because you can see just how different to the show greyhound they are. We don't get much of an entry these days for Greyhounds although a few years back we did think we have 5 Racing Coursing and 9 show Greyhounds.

Would get your letter off to the Kennel Club as soon as you can or you may be too late to enter. Good luck.

Thank you Lexy - just the info I was after!  I'm chuffed that racing greyhounds of all breeds can be showcased at Crufts via a non show route - any PR for this fabulous breed is good publicity.  I recommend them to anyone looking for a rescue dog - alas, my recommendation is usually ignored, they're very under rated aren't they. 

it is interesting to watch because you can see just how different to the show greyhound they are

this fascinates me too - I suspect most of the general public will never have seen a show greyhound - they're just so different and seldom seen outside the ring. I wonder how well they run/hunt?  That said, I 100% love them, they always remind me of pictures of medieval dogs - the sort King Arthur would have had under the Round Table!!!! :-)