One of my pups is going to a new home in france, he will be going at 9 weeks on the 2nd of Jan. Can someone help with what he will need doing in terms of getting his passport, as I understand it, its not that difficult to get him into france, but the new owners come over to the UK regularly so want to ensure that he has verything done correctly to allow his return into the UK.
Thanks

The rules are changing on January 1st; all he'll need to enter the UK after that date is an up-to-date rabies vaccination at least 21 days previously; there's no need to titre test.

This change is a great worry, as the titre test has so far revealed about 1 vaccination failure per vet in the UK - that's several thousand animals that would otherwise be travelling without any rabies protection, and without that safeguard it's only a matter of time before we have an outbreak.

Technically from the 1st January he can have his one rabies jab and can then travel in 21 days. He can actually travel to France on the outward journey anyway but can only come back to England after a 21 day period. Personally I wouldn't want to do the rabies jab quite so soon and in between his normal innoculations but as long as they know that after 1st January he WILL be able to travel 21 days after the rabies vaccs then if I were them I would have it done in France at a slightly later date. In saying all that I don't know what the rules are in France about what age they are to have their vaccs as they HAVE to have their rabies. If France insist that it is done early then they may as well have it done in England before travelling.

I don't know, this site says that you must have a rabies vaccination to travel to France and that the pup must be at least 3 months old?

http://www.lost-in-france.com/living-in-france/pets/594-taking-pets-to-france

So what age can he have his rabies vacc ? If he were to have it at 9 weeks, say just before he went, would the passport then be issued immediately (as its after 1st jan) ?

And what about microchip, do the uk ones work in other countries?

>So what age can he have his rabies vacc ?

I believe a pup must be 3 months old to have a rabies vaccination. It's possible that he would be allowed to enter France without it - you'll need to check. However that wasn't the case last year when a friend imported a puppy to France.

I've just spoken to my vet and they have said that the pup can have rabies vacc at 8 weeks, but they have also said they will not do the second normal vaccination until 10 weeks- i asked if they would do them at 7 and 9 weeks.

> This change is a great worry, as the titre test has so far revealed about 1 vaccination failure per vet in the UK - that's several thousand animals that would otherwise be travelling without any rabies protection, and without that safeguard it's only a matter of time before we have an outbreak.

Totally agree, my Myka (with a Rabies vaccinated dam) failed her titre test, (didn't bother getting it re-done, so no idea if it would ever have been sufficient)). 

Yet the dog a friend recently imported had 10 times the required antibody titre.

I think the Titre test should stay, but happy that there would be no waiting period after the result is received to get back into UK.

> I've just spoken to my vet and they have said that the pup can have rabies vacc at 8 weeks,

I would double check as I understand it most Rabies vaccines are not licensed until 12 weeks or three months.

Also if the vaccine is given then the pup can't travel for 21 days.

it is best for pup to go before it's vaccinations ( I have had pups do this to Holland, Spain and USA)and then have them done there (though one of the USA ones had puppy jabs but not Rabies), as there is no requirement for vaccines for pups travelling before 12 weeks of age.

Depending on where they are going from the journey into France via tunnel is no further/longer than many places in the UK..

All the information I have read it seems that no puppy under 3 months old and that hasnt had a rabies vacc cant enter france at all which i find hard to understand as the UK is a rabies free country, so why would france demand this?

>> I've just spoken to my vet and they have said that the pup can have rabies vacc at 8 weeks,
>I would double check as I understand it most Rabies vaccines are not licensed until 12 weeks or three months.

Absolutely. The puppy must be at least three months old for Canigen rabies vaccination; likewise the Nobivac rabies vaccine. What brand will your vet use?

Ok, well my vet clearly got that wrong!

So then do EU regulations state that it has to be 21 days after the rabies vacc that they can enter the country? therefore pup nearly 4 months?

I rang the PETS helpline and they told me to ring the french embassy to find out..cant find the number for that, its all very confusing!

Ok, I have just found this on the french embassy website:

As in the UK, French regulations do not allow entry into France of pets (cats, dogs, ferrets) under the age of 3 months and not vaccinated against rabies. However, animals under 3 months validly vaccinated under the protocol of country of origin can be introduced into France.

What does the bit in bold mean?

It means as I said that under three months they don't need to be vaccinated, as they are not required by any EU country to be vaccianted if udner 3 months old.

I would suggest pup goes at 10 weeks, after having had the puppy vaccs, or sooner if you don't mind them going without..

Rabies vaccinations aren't licensed to be given under 3months of age - so not sure why the vet says 8 weeks :-(

Thanks Barbara, the family are in the country until the 2nd of Jan when they return to France, hence wanting to take the pup with them then when he will be 9 weeks old.
I'm finding such contradictory information, one site says yes under 3 months they can travel with no rabies shot, but still need a passport, declaration from vet and vet inspector and also says you have to apply for permission to import if under 3 months old, and the other info says that...
"domestic carnivores (dogs, cats, ferrets) under the age of three months and not vaccinated against
Rabies can not be introduced in France. "

Penny, after reading up on the rabies vacc, it seems it is licensed for use from 4 weeks of age, but another is recommended at 3 months if done early.

>However, animals under 3 months validly vaccinated under the protocol of country of origin can be introduced into France.

I interpret that as meaning that a puppy that has completed the usual course of vaccinations for this country (ie DHPL) can enter France under 3 months without the rabies vaccine. Bearing in mind that the second injection of the course can't be given before 10 weeks I don't see how the 9-week puppy can possibly be taken to France legally.

I think the family are going to have to accept that the puppy will have to stay with you for longer.

Drover, I've imported a dog from USA and waiting for one from Germany and they both have to be 12 weeks before rabies vaccination can be given... when I looked I found 12 weeks was the lower age.  I belief it's still the case that dogs have to be at least 12 weeks before vaccination.  If it was younger mind it would do me little good as I have to wait till Jan 1st before my pup can enter UK :-)  I was lucky enough to go and see him this w/e.

However dogs are NOT checked in any way whatsoever when entering France, at least not if you enter via the channel tunnel -it even says so on their website. We've driven to France several times with dogs and they are not checked at all.
http://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/tickets/travelling-with-your-pet/
When leaving the UK pets are not required to go through Pet Control. It is only when returning to the UK that they are required to go to the Pet Control Building at our French terminal.

That makes a mockery of the french system!

I am still at a loss as to what the actual rules are, I think the only way I will find out fully is if someone who has recently been in the same situation comes and answers this post!

edit: This is the french embassy guidelines...http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Pet-cats-dogs-and-ferrets-Moving

Let them take the puppy and deal with the re entry to UK over there.
I send pups under 12 weeks..... with just their Uk normal Vaccination protocol..No rabies..to most european countries..no problems.
Over 3 months is a different story.
At border a microchip , normal vaccination and letter of declaration that the pup has never left my premises before vaccination.

Contact this man, he knows everything!   http://moveyourdog.com/pets.aspx

Thanks for that Tooolz, do you have them fully vaccinated, ie. at 8 and 10 weeks?

Yes, no pup leaves my house until fully vaccinated and chipped.

Ok, thankyou, I will contact the man from the link you gave tomorrow to ensure that will be ok.

Thought I would update this for anyone that may do a search.

Legally, it is not possible to enter france with a pup under 3 months of age. The only way around this is if a derrogation is issued by the french authorities, this has never been heard of being granted. This is not in line with other EU countries who many allow a pup under 12 weeks with confirmation that the dog has remained in a rabies free area since birth.

So it seems that unless the derrogation is issued (by some miracle?!) then the pup will have to wait 21 days after rabies vacc to enter the country.

I find this ridiculous with a dog coming from a rabies free country into a country known to have rabies!

The people who imported a pup from me to Holland went through France (not allowed) via Channel Tunnel, and no-one checked.

Im fairly certain that as they are going back via the tunnel they wont be checked, but its not a chance i'd like to take with one of my pups.

They could always opt for Ramsgate to Ostend, once in Belgium there are no border controls between Belgium and France.

I am pretty sure that French puppy buyers buying a puppy over the border don't worry about it being illegal to bring one in over the border under 12 weeks, or even know there is such. 

it's just like us going over the border into Wales or Scotland

Is it only border control to worry about? Perhaps there are other mechanisms for monitoring imported puppies, vets reports for instance. Do we know?

What would happen to the puppy if any irregularities were uncovered? what would happen if you went through on the day they did decide to run some checks?  Personally, it is not something I would ever risk with one of mine.  Why would you?

There are no other controls, and if pup is fully vaccinated (apart from Rabies) it won't see the vet, until over 12 weeks and vet isn't going to ask where pup came from.

Was just pointing out it is an unenforced, unenforceable and ignored rule.

> Was just pointing out it is an unenforced, unenforceable and ignored rule.

Security at borders can be quite discrete.  For every person that sails through there are others that are randomly stopped.  I just would not risk a puppy relying on that belief nor that an owner would not wish to have their new puppy checked by their own vet as many do. 

Well having only been across the Belgian French border last week that consisted of a sign along the side of the motorway saying Welcome, it would have to be, LOL

The couple from Holland that I sold a pup to came to my Vet to get the passport and Vet certificate, I only realised they had gone via tunnel once they were home, having assumed they were going to the Hook, or Dover Ostend/Zeebrugge.

It is they that told me that the rule is ignored by all the breeders sharing stock between the Benelux countries and France.

This relaxed attitude is what worries me about them having got rid of the need for the Titre test to come into UK from next year.

I suppose the risk is up to the individual as there seems no moral arguement regarding taking an animal out of a country without rabies but it would never be something I would contemplate with a puppy that I had bred as the consequencies for that puppy are way too scarey for me.

> as the consequencies for that puppy are way too scarey for me.

I wouldn't contemplate it as I would be worried about the consequences for me, is it a criminal offence to 'smuggle' a puppy through? I know it's unlikely they would be caught, but IF it is a criminal offence it just isn't worth risking it.

I have no idea if it is actually a criminal offence and if and what any consequences might be.  In the case of my puppy owners there was no smuggling, pup was taken through quite openly.

It has been the law since about 2007 I think.

Ah the pup with the Dutch couple went over in 2005.

On another tack I thought the whole thing was supposed to be harmonised from January, and that would make it illegal for the French to have different entry rules from the rest of EU???

So it could well be worth checking that they will not have to comply with the general rule (under 12 weeks allowed with no vaccinations required).

> Security at borders can be quite discrete.

As Barbara has said the northern border between Belgium and France is nothing more than a greetings sign in both directions.  I'm not suggesting this is used as an option for evading the law but there really is nothing and no one there...

> but there really is nothing and no one there...

Well that's the definition of discrete :)  but that is not to say they do not use CCTVs or track particular cars that have interested them on CCTV on the terminus or that they do not set up random temporary spot checks.

> Ah the pup with the Dutch couple went over in 2005.
>

Just found a reference and it was 2004.
According to this it was to bring France in line with other European countries.
http://www.lost-in-france.com/living-in-france/pets/594-taking-pets-to-france

The french do have the same policy as the rest of the EU, ie. officially an under 12 week old pup can be taken over there with special permissions..which is what other EU countries such as the netherlands and belgium officially require, however, the french do not seem to grant these permissions as it is at their discretion.

> that is not to say they do not use CCTVs or track particular cars that have interested them on CCTV on the terminus or that they do not set up random temporary spot checks.

Yes and those are all normal security protocols.  Most major roads have cameras and you could be stopped at any point on your journey, in any country.  The point is that in this region of Northern France there are no specific border controls or checks in place.  Anyone expecting to see barriers, fences and checkpoints would be sadly disappointed.  Traps are generally set up well inside national borders to aid legal enforcement however camera footage to prove cross-border transgressions may be used in the event of prosecution.  It is used in human trafficking for instance

No one should aid or abet in law breaking.  Supplying a puppy without correct paperwork and observing appropriate vaccination protocols would be unethical and not worth the risk for the pups sake.  Would anyone be stopped on this route?  Very unlikely.  Would I risk it?  Not with a puppy

Well like I said with the channel tunnel there are NO checks when entering France with a dog. You pay £30 extra to bring one dog to the UK with you (to cover the costs of the check, the extra staff etc), there is no fee the other way because there are no checks. Isn't it simply a case of the law in France says dogs have to be rabies vaccinated so that would be the only illegal part, if the dog wasn't vaccinated?

> so that would be the only illegal part, if the dog wasn't vaccinated?

Yes, and that would be the bit that would worry me. 
If it was simply a case of avoiding an import tax or something you might be left with a fine, probably not anything more serious but if your dog does not have the correct vaccination requirements what would happen?  The dog sent back, taken into quarantine, destroyed?  I don't know what would happen but it is likely to be somewhere between extremely inconvenient and devastating.

Yes but couldn't the new owners then get off the channel tunnel and head straight for the nearest vet, having made an appointment in advance? That would be no different to any other dog in France that hasn't been vaccinated yet?

> That would be no different to any other dog in France that hasn't been vaccinated yet?

Perhaps they expect puppies not to be out and about prior to vaccination. 
There certainly are anomolies to this law but I am not sure it would do you any good pointing that out if you were stopped.

Yes but even a dog born in France would have to GET to the vet to be rabies vaccinated, that's what I mean. If like I said this one was taken straight to the nearest vet then where's the difference?

I have family that live in france and i recently took one of my girls over to them. She was fully vaccinated and chipped but she hadn't had the rabies jab. We contacted the ferry port to find out the requirement and were told that they do not need to be protected against rabies to travel into France, only to come back into the uk. She travelled in her crate on the back seat of the car in full view of everyone and there were no problems.

> If like I said this one was taken straight to the nearest vet then where's the difference?

No, idea  :)  I'm not defending this law just pointing out I would not care for the consequences if a puppy of mine was caught out by it, particularly as it would only take a few more weeks to fully comply with it.

I know of people who had this same problem, France require you to have a derogation if pup is under 12 weeks old.
You can not do the  Belgium route as the ferry company is not registered with PETS, only other option  is going to Holland on a 6.5 hour crossing, then driving down into France. You will still technically however be breaking their laws.