Hi all

I have clicker trained my dogs in basic manners and obedience. I am new to showing however and want to know if anyone has had good experiences clicker training their dog's stack and if so could they share how they did it? I have two greyhounds and won't be able to get to ringcraft in the next couple of months (don't drive) so really want to do some work at home with my dogs.

Any non-clicker based training methods for a stack appreciated too.

I also want to know are greyhounds usually 'baited' with some strong smelling food like many other breeds are?

Are you going to be showing in the UK? Think it fair to say that in general sighthounds are not baited but stacked and it is fine to use a clicker, click when you get what you want and reward just as you would a sit. Start with a stand and then refine the foot placement - think in the UK moving the feet into the correct place is often done with Greyhounds but I am not sure as I have never really noticed.

I have no idea how Greyhounds are shown and also I don't know how you'd clicker it in a stacked breed, but in a free standing breed it's dead easy. You just wait for the natural stand and click, then eventually put a word to it. A well put together dog will stand right naturally many times during a day so it's just a case of catching it. Failing that click for any stand, then start to withhold the clicks if a foot is in the wrong place and wait for the dog to correct it as most do (as a foot out of place won't be as comfortable), then click. Or just lure the dog into the correct position with the help of treats or toys and click, it all works.

That is what I meant Goldmail, if they are stacked then you don't need for them to free stand but I think a free stood dog looks best anyway but that is JMO.

The OP is from Ireland not sure where they will be showing.

The UK and Ireland :)

Thanks for all the tips guys. From looking around at websites etc , greyhounds are a stacked breed.

Here's a show greyhound stacked, absolutely beautiful creature so huge credit due to the trainer and exhibitor :)

http://www.anotherstory.nu/our-greyhounds/oskar-eng.html

Don't much care for the strung up look myself.  I know lots do it but perhaps clicker training would be an alternative.

Don't much care for the strung up look myself.

Me neither. Some people are starting to do it in Malinois and it looks awful. Anders Hallgren the wellknown Swedish behaviourist  recently wrote an article where he mentioned that when you put the collar like this (or indeed use CM's collar) it will be the most painful way possible for a dog to wear a collar -and dangerous too. (Wonder if that dog's owner read it, seeing as it was Swedish!) He's carried out studies (and published a paper) on damage done to dogs' throats by choke chains so he'd know about the subject of dog throats and collars. Anyway, Googling quickly seems to show that's how it's done here as well.

do you mean the tight lead at the top of the neck? is she in effect pulling his head up? as i say, i'm new to this! is that the expected way to show the breed however and therefore i wonder would someone lost points if they chose to show their dog with a lower more natural head carriage.

I think you could clicker train holding the head up though - i mean it's not for long in the ring either. I don't want to do and will not do anything that will hurt my houndies.

Also what's a CM collar?

That photo was taken in Europe or at least the hound is being handled by a European in the UK they are not so strung up and like most hounds the presentation is more relaxed.

I think you could clicker train holding the head up though

I am also sure you could as well after all most sighthounds hold their heads up anyway so it should not be difficult to get that "ready to go" look with clicker training.

Karen Pryor's book Click To Win! is about clicker training show animals.

That is not strung up the dog is alert & holding its head looking in the distance like sighthounds do. The handler is just holding the lead at the top of the dogs head.
Greyhounds are stacked ie legs placed. Some judges do like for a natural stance, when the dog returns to the judge, after its solo movement. This way they see what possible faults a dog may have. It is good to try to train the dog to stand 'square' for those kind of judges.

That is not strung up the dog is alert

To me that is strung up, no dog holds its head that high the neck is almost upright and the head is only just in front of the feet, never would a dog stand like that even if watching for prey unless it were deformed. According to the UK standard the neck should be elegantly arched and well let into shoulder.

It is a sighthound & outside, they DO hold their head like that, when alert!

Well it is just my feelings on the matter and I think a head held over the feet is strange and wrong but it would not do for us to all think the same, like to see my hounds in a more 'natural' stance.

My other pet hate is handlers who stack their hounds or dogs so the highest part of the body is the nose and the eye is looking skywards, common in gundogs.

It is a natural stance, in a SIGHTHOUND when it is held on a lead, looking into the distance when outside. It is not my thinking, it is how the dog is due to its instinct to seek then hunt. Some even may look like this indoors although not to such a degree. It can be seen in Afghans quite distinctly too.

As I said it is a matter of opinion.

I think both of you are probably right but no doubt it depends on the dog. My dogs love to lure course and can tell if there's a rabbit a million miles away if we're on a country walk...at that point their heads will be right up and eyes scanning the horizon. I'm not sure that I could train this head carriage without placing a tiny bunny about a mile outside the ring ;)

Here's a quick picture of my young greyhound. Her focus is really improving but mst of the time, she'd rather be out running like a loon or asleep I reckon :D

We have a long way to go.... ;)

[IMG]http://i39.tinypic.com/2mcg6ki.jpg[/IMG]

> in a SIGHTHOUND when it is held on a lead,

I think that is what we are saying.  It would not stand like this without that lead. 
It is clearly showmanship but I see it as rather pointless as the judge will see, and will want to see, the natural conformation and how the dog stands naturally when it is on the move and before the handler has a chance to hoich the dogs head up.
I doubt it does a great deal of harm providing people don't take it too far and too vigorously I think it unecessary and personally don't like to see it.

I think it unecessary and personally don't like to see it.

That was my point, with the head held like that the dogs conformation, that may be very good, looks poor and unbalanced.

When I said lead, I meant if the hound was free it would see the prey, maybe stand momentarily but run virtually instantly, to catch whatever it was but if it was on a loose lead it would stand like that, when alert.
Sighthounds (Afghans, Ibizan, Pharaoh, greyhounds, whippets etc)do give the appearence of looking through you when they are alert..it is their natural instinct & would be similar to the double handling type method which some GSD folk use when their dog is stood. It is quite hard to explain in words what they can be like & yes they can & do stand like it on there own!!!

You would see them like this in the showring especially when outside & if something caught their attention.

It is easy to see that she is not a showbred Greyhound (& I dont mean that in a derogitory way)but in general it looks you might have some fun with her & not a bad start for someone who is new to showing.
Have you tried standing her the opposite way round...there isnt a right or wrong way to stand by the way.....just most stand them with the head in the right hand.

> do you mean the tight lead at the top of the neck? is she in effect pulling his head up?

Isn't this sort of look also to present a clean outline? ie just keeping the lead out of sight

Lexy, we're entering the ex-racing greyhound class at Crufts so I think her looking like an ex-racer will suit the situation hehe :) I love ex-racers and tbh, even if I get really into showing hounds (we previously had show cockers when I was a child so that's where my interest comes from) I'd find it hard to justify purchasing a show quality pup or dog knowing that there would be so many ex-racers in the pound facing being put to sleep at the same time. :-/ Anyway, that's just me. I only want to have some fun and it's a hobby I can do with my dogs.

Can I ask though, what shows her as so different to the show strain hounds? I'm eager to learn more :)

I will try facing her the opposite way later on!

Here's another couple of photos, feel free to give them a critique, I'm only new so learning as I go!

AND yes, I know she's remarkably skinny. She does not put on weight! Her muscles are enormous and she runs flat out daily. Unlike my other grey who is rather plump at the moment as the pics show!!

[IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/2r6jvp4.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i39.tinypic.com/10wvfkn.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/eqoz2b.jpg[/IMG]

> Anders Hallgren the wellknown Swedish behaviourist  recently wrote an article where he mentioned that when you put the collar like this (or indeed use CM's collar) it will be the most painful way possible for a dog to wear a collar -and dangerous too. (Wonder if that dog's owner read it, seeing as it was Swedish!) He's carried out studies (and published a paper) on damage done to dogs' throats by choke chains so he'd know about the subject of dog throats and collars.

Do you have a link to the paper, I would be very interested to read it having just seen CM's collar.

I am currently training my latest pup to free stand using the clicker and he's learning much quicker than the others did.