Ok in my breed at the moment there are a few known people mating 15 and 16 month old bitches.My view is that this is far too young and think the age of 2 is the general consensus for a planned litter. There seems to be a witch hunt on the bitchs' owners about them being to young.
Do you think 15 months is too young?
Do you think the stud dogs owners should take some responsibility for who their dogs are covering?

Personally I think that a stud owner has as much responsibility for the bitches they cover, and refuse if the bitch is under 2. This is just my opinion.

Lets see what you all think, both sides of the coin n all.
:)

Im not a breeder although i know a couple of breeders really well who also show their dogs and both do not breed before the age of 2,i too agree with this age.i do understand it depends on the breed but in my opinion 15 months is very much still a puppy far too young!

I would say it can be breed dependent, but certainly in most medium size and large breeds two years is as young as any bitch should have a litter, and many breeds have codes of ethics that reflect this.

There is an argument that with some toy breeds it is best not to wait too long for a first litter so that the bones are more flexible, muscle tone better etc, to avoid birthing issues.

The kennel Club will not register puppies from any bitch that was under a year old at the time of MATING..

Also surely you would be wanting to take advantage of their short time in puppy and Junior classes, if showing, and if working dogs getting therm trained and evaluated before considering them as being suitable for breeding.

I think it's too young personally. In my breed you are not supposed to breed before 2.5 years because of the health tests, but I know quite a few who breed at just before 2 years old, I don't want to fall out with those that are friends of mine so I do say that I think it's a bit young, but I don't think there's much I can do to dissuade them. :-(

Find myself in agreement with Brainless depends on the breed and to a lesser extent on the circumstances.

In my breed (small terrier-size) it's generally 18 months. I wouldn't breed before this, in fact my bitch is two next month and has just had her first litter. I find that not only does their body need to be developed, but their mental stability. I find it disgusting to put puppies through that at just a year old.

Well I personally think 2 years is plenty young enough, whatever the breed. Also I would not let my stud dog be used on a bitch any younger. If the person wants to bred from one younger they will go elsewhere but my conscience would be clear.

> Ok in my breed at the moment there are a few known people mating 15 and 16 month old bitches.My view is that this is far too young and think the age of 2 is the general consensus for a planned litter.

I don't think it is breed dependent - but if it is one that needs hip scoring then from what I gather, they have to be 2 yrs old to be scored and obviously breeding earlier before they have been assessed is a no-no.

In a breed that doesn't need scoring.... then I would still think 2 years minimum - as from what I've learned on here, most breeds aren't totally mature, physically or mentally, until then.

It's not all to do with physical appearance... I know only too well myself that my first dog developed  another phase of his temperament which showed up out of the blue at 2 yrs old even though he was neutered (and also just when I thought I'd got over the Kevin stage!!!!). I don't think you can know your dog properly until 2+ years, and as such, it would be irresponsible to breed from them till you really do know them inside out.

I don't think it is breed dependent - but if it is one that needs hip scoring then from what I gather, they have to be 2 yrs old to be scored and obviously breeding earlier before they have been assessed is a no-no.

No dogs have to be 12 months old to be hip scored, 2 years is in the US. :) And it is breed dependent -Chihuahuas for instance I am pretty certain do need their first litter early and certain other tiny breeds as well. Let's face it, they develop and mature so much quicker than large breeds that it's almost like comparing different species.

>Well I personally think 2 years is plenty young enough, whatever the breed.

Totally disagree.  I have a breed that is sexually mature at 6 months of age.  They mature mentally much younger than large breeds.  If someone phones me to mate a maiden 3 year old bitch, I emphatically refuse because I know for sure that a section is on the cards.  If it is a second litter, fine (if all else is ok), but my bitches are spayed at 4 years, whether thay have had a litter or not.

Whenever I have mated a bitch that is over 2 years old, she has never had the easy whelping of a bitch of 18 months.  And I have been working on my self whelping line for many years

>If the person wants to bred from one younger they will go elsewhere but my conscience would be clear.

I refuse far more people than I ever accept, because they obviously don't have a clue about the breed.  And my conscience is clear.

Yep definitely depends on breed. Many toy breeds are bred before 2, my medium sized breed should not be bred from until 2.  I have a girl who is 4 next year who hasn't had a litter yet and to me she is still very young. 

I know that in small breeds they mature quicker, and will be mated before 2.

My breed is a medium breed, and who don't generally mature until 2 - 3 years old.

i was looking for opinions and it seems the majority are opposed to it like myself.

Breeds vary.  I would always go with the Breed Clubs opinion on what should be allowed or not. 

>There seems to be a witch hunt on the bitchs' owners about them being to young.

Hardly justified unless they are breaking Breed Club rules or guidance.

> i was looking for opinions and it seems the majority are opposed to it like myself

Have you checked the Breed Club's code?  Or the KC Assured Breeder requirements?  If no specific age is mentioned the general Code is applied ie not under 12 months at date of mating.

I can't understand why people don't just ENJOY their puppies for what they are: puppies. Why on earth do you need to breed them before two? A puppy under two should be having fun, not having puppies!

Is there an ethical upper age limit to allow a maiden bitch a litter?

Karen :)

> I can't understand why people don't just ENJOY their puppies for what they are: puppies. Why on earth do you need to breed them before two? A puppy under two should be having fun, not having puppies!

Different breeds mature at different rates but life doesn't end for them when they have had a litter :-D

>Is there an ethical upper age limit to allow a maiden bitch a litter?

Probably 5 years of age for a medium to large breed like a labrador.

>Why on earth do you need to breed them before two?

Easy answer in my breed.  To reduce the invasive surgery that you are trying to avoid.  If you have never owned/bred Chihuahuas, you really don't have a clue.

Thank you for that, no plans, just interested :)

Karen

Good question, I'm still debating whether to breed or not,was adamant on my bitch being 2 then started to realise the timing of litters might be better if she was 18 months. The rules say that's ok but it just doesn't feel ok. I can't help but think my girl is a little too mentally immature just yet and I can't see her making huge leaps between now and March but you never know. Then I query if I'm being too hard on her needing emotional stability as she copes well with life as it is, so what exactly am I looking for? A dog who takes herself shopping?? It's just generally I see very puppy like behaviours still. I think.....maybe....Hmmmm.....

The list is endless and never stops going round in my head so it will more than likely be 2 years as I need time to adjust myself as I feel terribly responsible for her and don't want to make a mistake I don't want to spoil the fab little girl I have by rushing her along and her training still needs tweaking for my taste.

I can't understand why people don't just ENJOY their puppies for what they are: puppies.

A one year old small toy is often far more mature than a 2 year old large breed! I have 5 ½ month old toys that are more mature than my 12 month old largish breed pups. Until I'd had small toys I never realised just how different they are to bigger dogs.

In my breed it is advised that bitches have their first litter before 5 years of age.

In my breed 3rd season/2yrs old which ever comes first is thought to be the ideal age for first mating, allows for mental maturity as well as physical maturity.

> In my breed 3rd season/2yrs old which ever comes first is thought to be the ideal age for first mating, allows for mental maturity as well as physical maturity.

Dachshunds?  Not sure who we is :) but according to the Breed Council you must not breed
(a)    from any bitch less than one year of age at the time of mating and only if she is considered mature enough to raise a litter of puppies.

That was what I was told by my mentor and several breed club members when I was researching the breed and it makes sense to me, they are too immature mentally before that to cope with pups.

Several breeders in the US breed before that age and been left to hand rear because the bitch doesn't know what to do or has attacked the pups and killed some of them.

> and it makes sense to me,

But not to the Breed Council :)  With respect, I don't think you can have a larger or more knowledgable concensus can you?

> With respect, I don't think you can have a larger or more knowledgable concensus can you?

Stooge I'm not sure what you are arguing against or pushing for.  You've quoted "according to the Breed Council you must not breed (a) from any bitch less than one year of age at the time of mating and only if she is considered mature enough to raise a litter of puppies.

Rhodach is stating that she and some others within her breed are opting to follow the latter half of the above statement and are choosing maturity over the minimum age.  That's not going against her Breed Council is it?

> Rhodach is stating that she and some others within her breed are opting to follow the latter half of the above statement and are choosing maturity over the minimum age.  That's not going against her Breed Council is it?

But neither is the breeder who decides her bitch is ready before two years old.
I may have read Rhodach's post wrong but I took "they" to mean all bitches in her breed not just her own but appologise if I got that wrong.

The " they " I mentioned was both my dachsies and others I have met over the years.

I have a nearly 3 year old who is not breed quality, will never be bred from but is still very puppy like in her manner.

I suspect those involved with the Breed Council have met a fair few over the years and probably have considerable breeding experience :)

All this would not matter if it were not for the mention of "witch hunts". 
This would be extremely unjust if there is not valid reason why the breeder should not be making her own choices and they were supported by her Breed Club and the Kennel Club.

> All this would not matter if it were not for the mention of "witch hunts".
> This would be extremely unjust if there is not valid reason why the breeder should not be making her own choices and they were supported by her Breed Club and the Kennel Club.

...and until, or unless, diddles divulges her breed it's just guesswork - although I notice he/she was asking for thoughts not fact!

However, for a casual reader it's useful to discover that different breeds have differing requirements and that the oft quoted 2 years is not the norm. I find the differences within breed/group/size etc really interesting :)

Oh and yes diddles - I do think that stud owners should take care and responsibility with 'stud dog' enquiries (and many do)

> although I notice he/she was asking for thoughts not fact!
>

OK. My thoughts are go with the facts :)

> OK. My thoughts are go with the facts

My point wasn't directed at you Stooge but diddles - who seemed less interested in the facts but keen to solicit thoughts to back up his/her opinion.  I guess we won't know the Breed Club info until, or unless, we find out the medium breed he/she owns...

find out the medium breed he/she owns...

It would be my guess that with a user name like that it aint big.

I didn't mean to cause a riot. we all have our personal opinions and I am aware of the rules of the KC.

My breed is Bull Terrier, there isn't any secret to it.

i have only been in the breed for 5 years and am still learning a lot. It was not my 'witch hunt'. i know I would not breed my bitch until she is at least 2 because I don't believe my bitch would be able to cope any earlier. We all know our own dogs and maybe the breeders we know are doing it earlier feel that theirs are ready for motherhood.
i only asked for thoughts on the idea because maybe these people are being hard done by by others. Or maybe not.
when you are into showing and breeding people are very quick to cast apsertions.

My dog took until 3 to mature and my bitch is on her 3rd season but is still very puppy like and a slow bloomer.

Thanks diddles

It's not a breed I know, other than a friends dog.  I notice your breed guidelines are similar to those quoted for Dach's above (1.  No bitch should be bred from until she is mature, in no case under the age of one year.)  Are C sections common?  That does seem to be one argument/reason used.  What reasons do those breeders give for mating at 15/16 months?

My breed is Bull Terrier, there isn't any secret to it.

Well not so very Diddley then in fact a large breed.  I still maintain it depends on breed and some breeds are bred earlier than others sometimes for reasons of earlier maturity and at others because of advice given usually for health reasons.

No bitch should be bred under a year but then it should be a matter of the breed knowledge and vet & breeder advice.

dogs a babe c sections are becoming more common it seems within the breed. Whether this has any bearing on the age of the dogs I couldn't answer.

The reasons for breeding them at the young age I do not know,and I am not going to ask them because at the end of the day it is their own business and if they are happy to do so thats fine.

I only started the post to see if there was a varying difference in the opinions of my fellow doggy people on a much debated subject.

We are currently saving for when we breed our girl, health tests, stud fees and in case of c/section does not come cheap. I takes a lot of thought and learning and research to know you have made the right decision in the first place and forward planning is the key. one must also ask the question whether it is the right climate for a litter and the responsibility that comes with raising and finding good life long homes for a breed that can and has bad press in recent years. And ultimately are you doing it for the betterment of the breed or the hope you make a fast buck!

Thanks to all who gave their opinion x

dogs a babe c sections are becoming more common it seems within the breed. Whether this has any bearing on the age of the dogs I couldn't answer.

It is thought that the pelvic area becomes less and less flexible as the bitch matures so breeding whilst there is pliability in the area is thought to be a good thing particularly in the case of a breed where C sections are common.

C/Sections are required for so many reasons and not all are breed related so to get the full picture you would need to know those reasons before it being thought common for the breed.

Good Luck with the health tests etc.

> I didn't mean to cause a riot.

It has barely moved from the realms of discussion to debate compared to many threads :)
Don't worry it was quite clear from your OP that you were not involving yourself in the witch hunt. 

> C/Sections are required for so many reasons and not all are breed related so to get the full picture you would need to know those reasons before it being thought common for the breed.

I am sure there are many other factors, perhaps vets quicker to intervene, perhaps hobby breeders with less experience than years ago in the days of large kennels, perhaps exageration of conformation etc etc but in general most breeds seem to be improving on that front and likely to improve further with the new requirements for vets to report sections.

However, given that section rates go up in older women having their first child I cannot help but wonder if this trend for leaving it later and even frowning on those that choose an earlier option is maybe contributing to this trend if it is happening.
It is as Nova says more on the side of the younger bitch to effect a natural birth.

I have to say I am not exactly clear what people mean by their bitch maturing mentally
I never noticed any great change in mine from first season to about eight or nine years old when their energy levels would begin to reduce somewhat, either before or after a litter or if not bred at all.  Is this what people mean?

>> However, given that section rates go up in older women having their first child I cannot help but wonder if this trend for leaving it later and even frowning on those that choose an earlier option is maybe contributing to this trend if it is happening.
> It is as Nova says more on the side of the younger bitch to effect a natural birth.

I agree, which is why requirements for late health tests before breeding can potentially be a bit of a mixed blessing. 

> I have to say I am not exactly clear what people mean by their bitch maturing mentally <IMG alt=confused src="/images/confused.gif">
>

Don't know your breed but I would say in my breed (20 kg and 19 1/2 inch bitch size) they are very much puppies until two years old, and seem to reach maturity between three and four years of age.  It is about 4 that I notice the final social rankings being sorted.

My current youngest bitch to have a litter was 2 years 7 months when they were born, and I couldn't imagine her having them any younger, she has grown up loads since the puppies,a and I am surprised at how tolerant she is with her daughter (and her other pups she has seen at shows), as she does have bossy primadonna tendencies with others.

The youngest I have ever had a litter from a bitch was 2 years of age, but more usually they are nearer three years old, with two being over three and one nearly four.

To be honest from two to 8 years is 6 years in which to fit in a maximum of four litters (usually no more than three litters), so no need to hurry unless there is a good reason (ageing stud etc).

It all seems a bit contrary to me.
The big dogs have the shortest life span, but the small dogs who generally have the longest life span are the ones to be be bred earlier and deemed earlier to mature.

Karen

It all seems a bit contrary to me.

That's life for you, being mature does not have much to do with longevity, that has more to do with build and the genes you carry.

It seems a bit irrelevant if you ask me; dogs aren't just for breeding, many decent breeders don't breed for more than three litters, so it's not like the dogs are primarily there just for popping out puppies and thus smaller ones are favoured for the earliest litters. They have round abouts the same amount of breeding life, but just at different times.

I had no idea about Cavs needing to be bred after a certain amount of time so that health tests could be carried out at a more mature age, are there any other breeds that have similar terms?

I think  knowledge is relevant to us all, I prefer to be informed and educated in all aspects.
I wont breed unless I come into a fortune and can afford the time and money to do it, however I am still interested.

Karen

> I think&nbsp; knowledge is relevant to us all

I think Wagga meant it was irrelevent to the bitch whether she has her litter at 16 months or 36 months (assuming she is one of the early maturing breeds) because it is the same amount of time spent nursing not that your comment was irrelevent :)