I'm aware that there's a list that you climb when you are a judge - c-list, b-list etc. but can you see where the judge is on that list - ie. how inexperienced they are before entering under them, or can you get any information re. the judge other than by googling their name or affix?

TIA :-)

You're talking about breed club lists, so you would get the info from your breed club yearbook or website normally.

It is listed on some schedules - however except in breeds where there are very large numbers if the breed has more than 4 classes the judge will be B or A list in the breeds with loads of dogs being exhibited the number of classes will be over 5 before the judge must be B or A.

Not quite as you can judge without being on any list. Otherwise you would never get to judge.
Depending on a clubs criteria you have to have judged x classes to be on a B list(plus other criteria too). Most C lists are very basic & dont normally have class number restriction(due to KC rules).
In my own breed (stud band E) one can judge upto 5 classes without being on any list, whilst other breeds(band a-d) it is a max of 3 classes.

That is what I said Lexy. over 4 classes for most breeds over 5 for the numerically high breeds.

What I am saying..to make it clear.....that a judge can judge at an open show without being on any list.

Yes, if it is 3 or less classes for most breeds and 4 or less for breeds of large numbers they can be judges by anyone, in theory the postman but in most cases either a judge of another breed or a judge in the breed who is gaining experience. If you are really involved with your breed you will know which judges are beginner judges in the breed and those who are judges from other breeds.

Judges who are not in your breed may be very interested in your breed (just not own one) or the group as a whole and may well have studied them and attended seminars or as I say they could be treating your breed as a make weight. Only way to be sure is ask for a copy of the judging list, some are on the club web sites, and then you can check out what breed the all round judge is in, if it is the same group they are probably interested enough to have studied your breed if not it may be pot luck.

What I am saying..to make it clear.....that a judge can judge at an open show without being on any list.

Hi all,  thank you so far!

I think my query is more about open shows than champ or breed shows - I feel far more assured when entering these, but at open show when the only clue to the judge is an affix which more often than not doesn't google it seems like a bit of a lottery.

Is judging at open shows where a newbie judge begins their judging career? is this the bottom rung re. judging? and how can you tell if they're 'gaining experience' or more experienced/competent?

> Is judging at open shows where a newbie judge begins their judging career?  is this the bottom rung re. judging?

Yes, as largely the Limit shows are pretty rare, and teh only thign lower than that is ringcraft/club matches and companion shows.

>and how can you tell if they're 'gaining experience' or more experienced/competent?

If they aren't in your breed you can only ask about, google etc.

Some judges start at exemption level (companion)getting all round experience. .Most have stewarded gaining insight into other breeds.When you steward some are lucky enough to be with Judges that explain the whys and wherefores of their breed. Most have been to seminars on their breed or others they are interested in .Even experienced judges can talk to their friends in other breeds and ask for tips  ,little things like taking the borzoi tail under and up to the spine to check length , collie tail to see if it reaches the hock ,making a noise or dropping a tissue to look at a collie head expression and use of ears, picking up a peke to see if it 'picks up heavy'.
In each breed there is a requirement to do so many classes /dogs at Open level  before progressing   to a higher list , but you will get a very experienced Judge at open shows , not all experienced Judges progress to give tickets for a wide range of reasons.If you cannot find them by googling , ring the club sec . and ask what breed is Mr/Mrs so and so in ...I find out even for companion shows as I don't want a sensitive young pup at first time out completely ruined and frightened,like an afghan judge insisting on going in a six month old pekingese mouth, treating it like a GSD ,wanting to count it's teeth !

Ask for judging lists from all your breed clubs, if the judge appears on the list, even on the C list it will mean the person has at least taken the trouble to send a CV or fill in a form and the breed club has accepted that the breed is of interest to the applicant and has then placed them on the list.

If at a Champ show with a breed that has CCs the judge will be on the list even if they have arrived via the judges development program but if there are no CCs on offer the situation is much the same as at an open show and there is no guarantee that the judge has an interest in the breed or if their interest in only in adding dogs to their CV

I have seen some judge s do about 20 breeds , then I would think they are trying to add breeds to their CV and number of dogs.

Thanks Barbara,

many years ago a big name in our breed gave me the advice of 'don't waste time at open shows with a champ show level dog as you'll ruin its reputation', I wonder if you'd agree with this?

My husband would love this to be true as I love open shows, if only for being in the company of dogs and dogfolk for the day - he hates them!!! lol

'don't waste time at open shows with a champ show level dog

Think it depends on why you attend shows, if all you are interested in is making up your dog then may be not but most like open shows for social and training and lets face it winning is good for the spirit no matter where it happens.

You will get people who are top winners going to a companion show because they like showing and they will do it at any opportunity, go to a ringcraft club on match night and you will wonder where they all came from as they are not there on practice nights.

My hubby is like yours, and likes the champ shows well enough, and meeting the people I am friends with in our breed.

Depends if I am going for a day out or for an opinion. 

These days with even Open shows costing a lot in fuel I save most of my pennies for champ shows with CC's (do around 10 a year), favourite ones without CC's (two or three), breed club Open show, the Nordic Open show, then sometimes local group open show and now very rarely a local all breed Open show.

When I used to have a ringcraft local, then I enjoyed local Open shows as you could support and take interest in your friends dogs/breeds.

If you haven't made lots of doggy friends from ringcraft then an Open shows will be full of strangers, not even with your breed in common, which is fine if your gregarious and will chat to just about anyone who stands still long enough.

The 'advice givers' dogs are royalty in our breed if Crufts successes are anything to go by!  She actually told me that she wouldn't let me have one of her dogs if I only planned to take it to open shows.

I can sort of see her point as I'm often quite puzzled when I see dogs that regularly take 1st prizes at champ level get beaten by dogs which don't at open shows.  When they appear in the dog press in b/w for all to see, I suppose it does slightly tarnish the dogs reputation in your mind and it must be GUTTING when that happens 'winning is good for the spirit no matter where it happens.' but losing because its an inexperienced or CV gathering judge must be the pits!

It's frowned on in my breed except with younger dogs after JW points etc. I got a few pointed comments back when I used to take Henry to open shows, but the Champ ones are so expensive, the open ones are friendlier, and it's not like I have an unlimited supply of dogs to show - many of these people have their top dogs which they take to champ shows, and their up and coming new stuff to try out at open level, I only had him to show. But a Springer friend of mine said in their breed it was more accepted, and how would newer judges ever get to judge the top quality dogs if they never turned up at an open show.

many years ago a big name in our breed gave me the advice of 'don't waste time at open shows with a champ show level dog as you'll ruin its reputation', I wonder if you'd agree with this?

Maybe that was before the advent of the ShCM? One very good reason to attend open shows I'd have thought. I show my Champion at Open shows and have always done (in fact all my showdogs go to both opens and champs), so before she was a Champion as well. Certainly didn't do her any harm as she managed to get BOB at Crufts. I'm one person very much against NOT showing quality dogs at Open shows as a) the up and coming judges need to see quality and not just the mediocre, and b) they are after all OPEN to all, plus c) if we don't support our breed classes at Open shows, they will vanish.

Now we all complain about Champion show judges not doing the sort of job we would wish but if when learning the ropes at open show they have never had a top quality dog under them how are they supposed to do a good job. Add to that the fact that in order to progress judges have to have judged a set number of dogs it is important that they are supported at open show level or we will finish up with nothing but all rounders and career judges at Championship shows.

Quite agree Nova, but if you have to choose your shows carefully with how expensive fuel is then you tend not to want o throw your money away as often and restrict your support to those you feel deserve it (be that show or judge).

With the way things are now I really think the learning should e done as a student judge in the ring at championship shows, before the judge is allowed to practise on us who are paying for their opinion, and furthering the CV judges careers.

I used to like to do a champ and an Open show a month, but find myself hardly doing any Opens to save the money for the champ shows where there will be more competition in the breed.

but if you have to choose your shows carefully with how expensive fuel is

Agreed and understand, it was the statement that you should not waste your time showing a quality dog at an open show I disagree with, of course, in these days of limited funds you have to choose what you will spend on what.

Do hope though that enough open shows survive this period or I have  no  idea where the Championship show judges will come from.

I guess a LOT will depend on where you live in relation to shows. I can enter 2 dogs to an open show plus get catalogue for a tenner, we can get to Newark showground in just over half an hour and many a time have been finished with everything by no later than midday (don't always stay for groups) -leaving the rest of the day free. (Which is a big bonus to us as my husband never has enough time at weekends for things he needs to do.) Every single champshow is further away, costs lots more to enter, and take more time as well, hence we never even think twice about entering most open shows.