Hi all,

just being curious here.  Can a judge have access to the catalogue before their judging appointment? and if so, how far in advance - can they do 'homework' on their entries.

TIA :-)

NO!!!

Doesnt stop some little devils meeting a friend in the loos before judging  though :-(

I also thought the answer to this was no but feel sure I saw some mention of it in the canine press recently. I have just had a (quick) look at the judges regulations and could not see anything specifically against it.
Perhaps someone else knows better?

Jeff.

Its laughable isnt it. they're not supposed to but of course they do.

So is the show secretary sworn to secrecy?

NO  but unless the judge in question is his/her best friend, the whole of the dog world would pretty soon know that the judge had asked for those details.....looks very bad :-(

No, a judge should not be able to view the catalogue before completion of all their judging. No doubt some have ways around this but I can safely say that I personally, have never looked a catalogue before I have judged..neither would I wish to either!!!

This has been queried many times before, and no a judge should never see a catalogue.

However... how many judges actually need to?  Many of us know most of the dogs in our breed, we see them show in, show out.. and at some point, wherever they are in the country, will be shown under us... Even when I was judging a shows in both Ireland, and Malvern (6hours away) at least 2/3 of the dogs were known to me and 8 out of 10 owner/handlers were friends and acquaintances. 

In a numerically small breed, it could be pretty safe to say that everyone is known by the judge

unless of course judge was coming from abroad 

No, absolutely not, and the steward should make very sure during judging that they can't see it by mistake either. Of course they are quite likely to recognise a fair few dogs or handlers anyway.

Best one I have ever seen was the judge that judged our breed stayed with the woman that was judging AV Gundog and stewarding for the breed judge. So the AV judge was marking up the catalogue and could look at what she had in her own classes!!!!!!!

Of course they do.. lets not be nieve ... but I do agree that most people know who is who and know most of the dogs.. what annoys me most is when faces take in other peoples dogs knowing full well they will get well placed where in different circumstances they wouldnt.!! :)

> but I do agree that most people know who is who and know most of the dogs.. what annoys me most is when faces take in other peoples dogs knowing full well they will get well placed where in different circumstances they wouldnt.!!

I think it is rather sad people feel the need to do that.
Also, the practise of  well known person standing the dog and having another person to run it as they can't do it themselves to me is rather obvious why it is done.
Surely if you can not run your dog, you should just let somebody else handle it full stop?
In my breed I have seen somebody handling, well known person standing behind the dog in the line up, like marking this is my one.
Running through the ring in front of the judge to hand treats to handler (if treats are forgotten there is much less obvious way to give them to the handler!), again so the judge can see which one is the one.

Saying that, I'm not well known face and neither are my dogs as we have not shown much in UK but I have always done pretty well at shows here so I'm not saying it is all facey :)
Some people obviously like to think so by having to show their face in the ring!
and of course it does happen sometimes, being placed on owners merits, not necessarily the dogs :)

>Surely if you can not run your dog, you should just let somebody else handle it full stop?

No - often a dog will show better for its owner than anyone else, but if the owner has mobility issues for whatever reason it's perfectly understandable to have someone else move it.

Happens a lot in Malinois that other people move the dog, if the owner is not able to run -usually elderly people. It doesn't mean the dog would handle as well for somebody else the rest of the time, hence the owner prefers standing the dog themselves, plus of course they may like taking part as much as they can.

Can only say I have never looked at a catalogue till after I have judged and it would not in most cases tell me much I did not already know.

In our breed it is common for dogs to be swapped about from handler to handler or to use a runner if needed only thing you have to watch is if you wish to enter that particular dog under that person during the next year, not that it would make any difference but they are the rules.

Not really seen this practice in Europe and find it very weird thing to do and as it is mainly well known people who do it, I only assume often it is something to do with showing face (not always). Maybe it is to do with confidence. Having the confidence to do it, where as somebody less well known will just settle to doing it like everybody else, dog being handled by one person all the way wether it will stand better for that person or not.

If you have injured yourself etc I can see the reasoning on not had opportunity to train the dog to stand with the runner, but if it is always run by that person surely the best thing would be to train the whole thing to be done with the handlerer?

I can see the wanting to be part of it all but often the dog gets little unsettled by the whole change of the handler so surely it should be about getting the best out of your dog  etc... Having the dog settled, trained with the handlerer would be the thing to do, over I want to be in the ring for that few seconds to stand the dog?

Well, that is how I see it :)

If you have injured yourself etc I can see the reasoning on not had opportunity to train the dog to stand with the runner, but if it is always run by that person surely the best thing would be to train the whole thing to be done with the handlerer?

No, in the cases I'm talking about, the person who moves the dog will vary from show to show. It is entirely down to whoever happens to be available and not entered in the same class.

>No, in the cases I'm talking about, the person who moves the dog will vary from show to show. It is entirely down to whoever happens to be available and not entered in the same class.

Yes, that's how I've always known it too.

It is much more haphazard than that Noora, even seen someone with two dogs in the same class have someone there to hold one dog whilst they show the other and I can see no reason why not. It is considered polite to tell the steward and in fact as no one but the judge, stewards and exhibitors should be in the ring it is really good sense to tell the steward if a dog has more than one handler.

It may not happen on the continent but then we do not show in the same way, we do not have professional handlers either except perhaps the odd handful but even then it is not done in the same way as it is in the USA. In the UK dog showing is very much a social occasion, a doggy get together only very few are really solely in it to win it the rest are there for a day out with their dogs.

I often have 2 dogs in the same class, and need a handler to stand one for me, but I always stand and run my dogs for the judge, I just swap dogs over in the ring.  Or, if in the ring with a friend who shows, I run her dog and she stands for the judge. I just give her my dog and take hers, then swap back for the final line-up...

I had to stay home over the weekend, and it was our breed club show, which I did not want to miss,  so I sent one of my dogs to a show with a friend, she was unable to handle,  She found another handler for me, who has never met my girl and she won her class... (she won 2 classes :-) )

Nothing is ever as cut and dried as it may seem Noora, one size does not fit all ;-)

Yes, I handled a friend's puppy at the weekend, she had entered 2 in the puppy class, so I stood one at the beginning and end, and she put each one on the table and moved them, as they were so keen to get back to her and the other puppy I couldn't even get their attention waving frankfurter under their nose!

I dont have a problem with a different handler moving a dog for someone who cant do it themselves just taking part by standing the dog , see this a lot in my breed but do know the people have health issues..
Its when the owner stands at the ringside , having shown thier dogs themselves for a good while and  not being placed then having a well know handler do it for them ..to say qualify.. then come out with a good placing... it is so obvious what is going on.

I know someone who was sitting at the ringside at one show a few years ago who overheard the judge say how many points do you need .. she then went on to win her class and subsequent others ... then boasted at how she now had got her JW!!

>Its when the owner stands at the ringside , having shown thier dogs themselves for a good while and  not being placed then having a well know handler do it for them ..to say qualify.. then come out with a good placing... it is so obvious what is going on.

Yes - the well-known handler handled the dog better than the owner!

yep.. thats the reply I expected.. :) so ..dog showing isnt corrupt.. ha!

No more than anything else that involves people! One scenario is no more likely than the other. A bad handler can make a good dog look like a donkey, but a good handler can make the same good dog look like a star!

Unfortunately we can't rid Society of the conspiracy theorists who always want to believe the worst, but how much more pleasant Life would be. :-)

Right I'm confused x 2 now!

In our breed it is common for dogs to be swapped about from handler to handler or to use a runner if needed only thing you have to watch is if you wish to enter that particular dog under that person during the next year, not that it would make any difference but they are the rules.

are you referring to the judge here - is there a rule that you can't show under the same person more than once p/a?

Other query:

I don't understand how having a handler can make a difference to a judge's decision...

phew! dog-showing = lots to learn!

are you referring to the judge here - is there a rule that you can't show under the same person more than once p/a?

You can't show under a judge if that judge has handled your dog in the ring within the past 12 months, so if you ask an exhibitor who also judges to move the dog, that rule will apply and you will have to wait a year to enter under them as a judge.

> I don't understand how having a handler can make a difference to a judge's decision...
>

A poor or nervous handler can ruin a good dog.. The dog may not allow itself to be gone over by the judge and a poor handler may not be able to settle the dog... Might be the best dog there, but if the judge cannot go over or see correct movement, the judge has to place that dog way down the line or not place at all.

The same dog under a relaxed and competent (whether experienced or not) may help relax and keep the dogs attention, thereby the judge is able to go over, the dog feels confident alongside handler to move well.   The judge is able to place

so yes a handler can make a huge difference to a dogs placing and judges decision

Personally, I think the whole system needs a good shake up. The numbers for champ shows have never been lower and this is evident in the number of extensions for entries there have been this year alone. In general everyone I have spoken to is sick to death of the "faces" dictating the results of these shows and them (miraculously!! ) knowing the outcome days/weeks before the actual show!
The arguments against my post which follow will will no doubt indicate the faces themselves :)
I would still like to believe that there are some decent people out there who enter shows for the love of it and their breed, the genuinely nice people know who they are! but it's a shame the others have no conscience when it comes to being gratious. I have been highly placed in classes on several occasions and watched certain other exhibitors "storm" out of the ring and never speak to me again LOL  Unfortunatly there are a good number of people in my breed are out to win whatever the cost. I can say with conviction that this kind of cheating and back-scratching needs to be addressed. There seems to me  be little dignity left in these people, and their own self-importance far out-weighs any Kindness, friendliness or humanity.  Everyone likes to win and i love to see winners but when you witness the corruption first hand of 2 well-known's in the ring (one showing/one judging) it fills me with utter disgust.  And so saddens me.
On a nicer note.... there are plenty of lovely people in my breed but they are deminishing fast. Hence the low entries.

Everyone likes to win and i love to see winners but when you witness the corruption first hand of 2 well-known's in the ring (one showing/one judging) it fills me with utter disgust.  And so saddens me.

Then why don't you put your money where your mouth is, and file a complaint on the day? :)

Personally I think dwindling entries has everything to do with people not having the money to spend on entry fees and above all petrol, nothing else. We have the exact same scenario in the cat fancy, entries dropping all the time, dates being extended etc (last year they even dropped the qualification for the Supreme show), and there the cats are judged in anonymous pens with no exhibitors allowed in the hall during open class judging.

I am more inclined to believe lower number are financial reasons, rising price of fuel restricts many people.

I hear many people talk about faces, and face judging.. and it is faces that are placed... does no-one stop to think that those 'faces' have been in their respective breeds for possibly upwards of 30 years, and on the whole do actually tend to have the best dogs, breed with the best dogs and KEEP the best dogs.. their knowledge in breeding and years of getting it right deserve the respect of those who are following in their shoes.. and many of them are huge shoes to fill .

One day you will look back and hear people moaning about you being a 'face'... if you stay around long enough, everyone will be a 'face' to someone ;-) 

Jeangenie 

"Unfortunately we can't rid Society of the conspiracy theorists who always want to believe the worst, but how much more pleasant Life would be."

Oh YES...and how much more corrupt ???????
speaks volumes :)

I had a particularly naughty dog who would behave for a few shows if handled by someone else and then he would start playing them up, yes, I did run out to handlers and removed him from the ring.

Not uncommon for a breeder to handle a dog for a new owner and heaven forbid the breeder may be well known but I don't think you will find many people who have not had someone help them in the ring at one time or another.

Can't understand why those who think that showing is corrupt from top to bottom continue to show and moan, if they really believe it is fixed then why bother, leave it to those who enjoy it and the company of other who are interested in their breed, it is, after all, a very expensive hobby if you feel it corrupt it seem daft to keep paying.

NO... kayc, you are very wrong and very rude.
My friends and myself have many dogs and several come from excellent, top breeding lines.
Unlike other people !!!!    I would  and have never put any of my dogs under friends as i think it unfair on them. Faceiness is a very undesirable quality and you would never be able to call ME so.
I have been around my breed for 20 years and been showing for 17 years. Quite long enough to know what i'm talking about thank you :)

> yep.. thats the reply I expected.. :-) so ..dog showing isnt corrupt.. ha!

I sold a puppy to an older lady whose mobility is rather erratic.

She isn't the best exhibit in the world but wasn't doing as well as she might have if the owner could just move her at a steady speed, as eh was moving her quick slow quick quick slow in little dashes. 

Now I'm not great handler, but I started taking her in the classes last year and this as I had nothing in the lower classes and she has had some better placings.

The bitch has also learnt what it is she is meant to be doing when moving and even when the owner has to handle moves better than she did.

Also if you show more than one dog of the same sex/breed and you win more than one class you will need to ask someone to handle one or more of the winners for you while you handle one, and you may be asked to do this for others.  Your more likely to be asked if your a good handler or connected to the exhibit or exhibitor in some way.

Unlike in cats or Rabbits or poultry the dog is also judged on it's movement and character, so how a dog shows and moves and the ability of the handler to show this off to best advantage can affect the performance and placing.

Funny how the complaint that it's 'all about looks' is always levelled at the dog showing fancy, when in fact it is far more true of other animal fancies, where either the animal isn't handled but examined by the judge, by them alone, or simply anyone can hold them on a table until the judge can go over them (as in Rabbits and Cavies), and lines them up.

>I would  and have never put any of my dogs under friends as i think it unfair on them.

Maybe someone who's been showing even longer and is a friendly person would have nobody they could show under, because every judge would be known to them.

Nova... why should we stop showing our dogs. I love showing and always have a great day but the corrupt DO exist and dominate. What right has anyone to dictate other people's enjoyment of showing by corrupting the system. "Disgraceful and dishonest" :(
FINAL POST...

>I am more inclined to believe lower number are financial reasons, rising price of fuel restricts many people.

That's exactly right. With most people feeling the pinch financially, non-essential spending gets reduced first. For instance, we've given up one car, to save money, so my driving to shows is rationed when I'm not the only one who needs to get out of the village!

> I would  and have never put any of my dogs under friends as i think it unfair on them.

Unless your rather unsociable then you are likely to be on friendly terms and friends with most people in your breed, and their opinions are likely to be of interest.

The alternative is to only show under all rounder judges and the very occasional foreign breed specialist (who some people may be friends with anyway as the dog world get smaller, with the Internet etc).

> those 'faces' have been in their respective breeds for possibly upwards of 30 years, and on the whole do actually tend to have the best dogs, breed with the best dogs and KEEP the best dogs.. their knowledge in breeding and years of getting it right deserve the respect of those who are following in their shoes.. and many of them are huge shoes to fill .
>

Blindingly obvious really, isn't it :)

> NO... kayc, you are very wrong and very rude

Where in my post was I rude.. did I say you didnt know what you were talking about?   A face is someone who is wellknown, been in a breed for many many years.  One person I know said that after 30 years, she felt she had just finished her apprenticeship... that was the year she judged Crufts

I think we may have a diffence of opinion on what a 'face' is...

I do put my dogs under friends.. I have to.. most of my friends are judges.. If I didnt show under them.. or they under me, we would not be able to show...

>Blindingly obvious really, isn't it

You'd have thought so.

> but the corrupt DO exist and dominate.

I'm sure they do exist but dominate........I doubt that very much indeed.
I doubt dog breeding and showing could have remained popularly for quite so many decades if no new person every managed to find their way in by simply breeding and showing reasonable quality dogs.

but the corrupt DO exist 

As they do in all walks of life.

and dominate

That is what I mean, if you really believe that why are you wasting your time and money it would be better spent on the lottery. There are other dog sports and I can't see why if you think most of the others in showing are corrupt you would wish to be associated.

> I have just had a (quick) look at the judges regulations and could not see anything specifically against it.
> Perhaps someone else knows better?
>
>

Your quite correct, there isnt a rule against it (or there wasnt a couple of years ago)...just one of the unwritten/ettiquette rules.

> One day you will look back and hear people moaning about you being a 'face'... if you stay around long enough, everyone will be a 'face' to someone ;-) 

A few years ago a big winning Giant Schnauzer was winning everything, and of course some people moaned about the 'face' yet this was the owners first show dog, so he only became a face due to having a good dog.

On the other hand I don't suppose the owners will ever equal that level of success again.

The rest of us have our little victories, no less sweet, the first, first prize car, Best Puppy in breed winning best of sex, Best of Breed, a group placing and so on, something we can keep striving toward.

NO... kayc, you are very wrong and very rude.

What exactly is Kay supposed to have said that was RUDE?!!

My friends and myself have many dogs and several come from excellent, top breeding lines.


Surely you know that top lines are not everything as you can still get poor examples -plus a lot is in the handling. I'm a rubbish handler myself, found my husband was much better and it was from the day he started handling (as a TOTAL unknown person) that we started winning.


Unlike other people !!!!    I would  and have never put any of my dogs under friends as i think it unfair on them. Faceiness is a very undesirable quality and you would never be able to call ME so.


Unless you're in a breed that is really popular with lots of judges and huge entries it would be absolutely impossible to never enter under people that you know and/or consider to be friends. Certainly for my main breed I don't think anyone would be able to show under breed specialists ever then as everyone knows each other.

> I have been around my breed for 20 years and been showing for 17 years. Quite long enough to know what i'm talking about thank you

Quite long enough to have established a winning line and be well up with the big boys I would have thought...if that is your aim.

Yes there's a lot of back scratching, favours, insecure judges and no doubt some 'planned' results but I believe that - in the main- every GOOD dog has a good chance.
Problems generally arise with the perception of the owner.

There are many reasons yes and I have no issue with people doing it what ever the reason - disability or to show their face
Everybody is free to do what they wish :)

I have shown dogs for others and have my dogs shown by others for various reasons, sometimes to see if the dog does behave better for me or other person, sometimes because the owner does not wish to show themselves as they get nervous which travels down the lead, sometimes for me to see what the dog looks like in the ring... Two dogs in same class is totally different to what I have seen and am talking about...
I'm in process of training my OH to show one of my dogs, I totally know what difference the good/bad handling can make and that again is a good reason to get somebody else handle for you if you feel you are not showing the dog to it's best yourself :)

Many different reasons but I do think sometimes when the different person stands/runs the dog it is done to show which dog is whose.

I don't actually think showing is as facey as some make it to be, some judges might be most I like to think are not.
I have done well with the shows I have been to and been placed where I think we belong and my face is not known at all :)

In my breed I have seen somebody handling, well known person standing behind the dog in the line up, like marking this is my one.

Not quite the same scenario but I have been at a show where the judge had used a top kennels dog. On the day there were two exhibits being shown in one class that had used the same dog. The man and wife from the 'top kennel' walked with the owners around the ring but from the other side of the tape as if to mark the exhibit for the judge. I thought it a great shame as it was the judges first time judging at Champ level and you could see how flustered it made her.