Saw an advert in my breed (medium size pastoral) for a stud dog so asked her what tests he's had done and reminded her nicely about the Sale of Goods Act and it's implication for puppies/puppy owners. This is her reply

"Hello no he hasnt as yet had any tests done, nor had anyone in his
generations from what i can gather and there has never been any defects in
his linage at all ,so there is very little chance that there will be,it is
at the bitches owners risk if they want to use him or not,as i dont say he
has been scored and has not it is individuals choices ,weather they want a
good dog or more bothered about scores which are mostly irrelivent
especially when they are not for show,but thankyou for bringing this to my
attention when i first started breeding dogs these tests wernt even
thought of and i have never had any issues with bitches or pups or
dogs,that these tests cater for,but may have them done in future but i
know they will all be fine."

Ostrich syndrome.

This is my reply to her. Bit blunt but they make me cross....

I'm surprised you don't do the lottery as you are so good at predicting the
future (if you are so confident his test results would be fine, why haven't
you had them done?). Health tests are there for ALL dogs who are being used
for breeding, not just show dogs. A pet owner has as much right to a puppy
who is free from eye conditions/hip dysplasia/deafness etc as a show dog
owner and the Sale of Goods Act is there to protect them if you do not
produce such a puppy. You and the bitch owner could be sued if you produced
a puppy suffering from a genetic condition which could have been tested for
in the adults but which you have failed to do. You don't know if your dog
comes from a line free of conditions as no dog, including your own, has ever
been tested so how can you assume that? Do you personally know every single
dog behind him and what puppies they threw? Of course you don't so you don't
know if there have been problems, you are assuming that for your own
convenience. If you are breeding the very least you can act is act
responsibly and have your dog tested - for your own peace of mind if nothing
else. Collies do suffer from hip dysplasia, collie eye anomaly, pra,
hereditary cataract, deafness, TNS, CL etc and all these can be tested for.
All you have to do is register your dog on the KC Activity Register and then
find the specialists who do the testing (all accessible on the internet).

I had my bitch tested for all these conditions and it cost me £1,000 and a
lot of travelling/time to do so but I can breed from her with a clear
conscience and I would not dream of undoing all that hard work by using a
dog like yours who has no care/thought whatsoever put into his stud duties.
Collies should not be bred from willy nilly, they often don't make good pet
dogs so finding the right homes is not easy. People like you who breed
without any care just add to the rescue problem but as long as you are
making a quick buck, who cares? Not you, obviously!

Nice one! I can't imagine she'll be pleased, but at least someone's told her....

Marisa didn't you know it's only show dogs who have these problems!  So annoys me peoples attitudes like this, even some working fields think the same, well my dog has worked all it's life so can't have any hip/health problems.

Great reply Marisa. xxx

Superb reply Marisa! 

She is clearly culpably ignorant and arrogant too. The public need to be protected from her type but sadly without the cooperation of vets ,who could do a lot more to support ethical and responsible breeders, and effective moderation of these 'stud your dog' sites ( etc ) she will continue to do her worst !

This is the legacy of Jemima, isn't it. Great work. Only show bred dogs can get ill! (Weird how mine aren't ill??!!)

>when i first started breeding dogs these tests wernt even thought of

When cars were first built they didnt even dream of seat belts, we wouldnt be without them now!!!!
*Walks away from computer shaking head to find a brick wall to bash my head on*
Lea :)

Once again, come on Jemima Harrison. We know you read this forum, so why don't you come on here and defend people like this?

they don't even have to register the dog - any dog can be health tested not just KC dogs (lot of ISDS dogs are tested) - they just have to be permanently identified, usually with a microchip.

Penny is right any dog pedigree or crossbred can be health tested all it needs is a micro-chip or tattoo. There is absolutely no excuse not to health test a dog before breeding. If they do want to register the dog they don't have to use the activity register as the KC has a companion dog register which is for pedigrees with out papers, pedigrees with regular KC papers and for crossbred dogs whether first crosses or a heinz 57 type.

Polly, I'm not sure that's true; I had my bitch eye tested in July and without her KC registration papers they wouldn't give me the results. Took me a month to order new ones (I'd brought along her pedigree which had, what I thought, all the relevant info on it, reg. number, DOB, etc) and get my results back. Apparently they waiver it for puppy screening, though.

> without her KC registration papers

I think what Polly is pointing out is it does not have to be the breed register, there are other registries within the KC that any dog can be put on but obviously you still need those papers in order for anything to be recorded.

When doing eye testing since the jan 2010 directive of having to have a microchip or tattoo if the dog is being tested before breeding it have not needed to be on a register, but you are right I was pointing out there are many registers with in the KC now thank goodness.

Recorded yes, but not actually tested :-)  You can have the tests done and keep the record yourself.  I had a WSD tested for TNS before I got her working register papers back.  There isn't a requirement to be on any register to get tests done - so nothing to stop anyone getting them done :-)

Ohh, I see now, I didn't know there were other registers in the KC.

Well the obvious one is the working register - others are basically a sham, designed to be seen as like the KC, however there are proper ones such as for border collies the ISDS (International Sheep Dog Society) and there are other, perfectly sound, breed registers like for Welsh Sheepdogs.  Dogs do NOT, however, have to be registered with any of these to be health tested, merely 'permanently identified' usually by microchip.

If your dog is on the KC register then you should produce her paperwork - but they don't have to be registered.  With pups the papers are often not back so they get done with the parents information on and the records don't get attached to the pup, although I had two done with papers and they had the paperwork with them, but done as a litter, so on their records.

When doing eye testing since the jan 2010 directive of having to have a microchip or tattoo if the dog is being tested before breeding it have not needed to be on a register,

I took a bitch for eye testing November 2010 (in a breed not even required to have it) and did not have her reg cert as she was, at that time, on breeding terms and the breeder had all her paperwork. I had all her details including reg number (and of course she was chipped) but the vet would not give me the test certificate unless I produced the reg cert. I had to get it posted to him.

Just re-read and should have said the KC have the pedigree register - what constitutes 'KC registration' but they also have the working register where dogs who compete in various activities can be registered, all dogs are eligible.  Other registers are outside the KC - ISDS dogs though are automatically accepted onto the KC register as Border Collies.  Most ISDS people don't bother with KC registration - but as I compete in agility and want to register progeny I dual register any ISDS dogs I buy (only the one at the moment) - their records of course go back considerably further than the KC, back to early 1900s - KC accept their pedigree details.

The two eye testers I have been to both wanted KC reg certs before giving results.

That would apply if the dogs were on the KC breed register. 

Had they been unregistered dogs then that would not have applied, as long as they are permanently identified..

well if they're KC reg then they will - but they don't have to be!  I can only repeat that plenty of ISDS dogs are eye tested :-) plus if you're not on a register you just tell them, how else could x-breed dogs be done?  I had a litter of unregistered pups done, no quibbles in Australia over the TNS test either.  When you do the DNA tests with Optigen you just say if they're on a register, or not.  With the visual eye tests you just tell the specialist that they're not KC (or any other register) when you book them in.  Of course KC want to see the results but not if your dog is nothing to do with them.

Barbara said 'That would apply if the dogs were on the KC breed register'. My dogs are on the Activity Register (Working Sheepdogs) but I am still asked to produce their certs for eye testing and not allowed to know the results unless the vet has the paperwork in his hands. Yet when the pups were tested, no KC details needed, just pet name. 

How did they know they're on the activity register?  If they are the KC still publish the results!  If your dog is ISDS they don't ask for KC paperwork, but ISDS paperwork... other registers they're not interested in so if you have a dog registered with the Welsh Sheepdog Society then they won't ask.  Tell the specialist that they're not registered with anyone, but you still want them tested... they have an agreement with ISDS and KC to tell them about all dogs registered with them (with KC either register) but clearly if your dog isn't registered with them then they will just give you the results - but your dog needs to be permanently identified. 

They ask if the dog is KC registered when I ring to book the appt. I do like the health test results to show on the dog's KC papers, as well as having the test sheet results, though I know they're not always good at adding these details on (eg when I got the puppies' KC papers, all my bitch's test results were shown but the stud dog's hip score was missing - I have already given the puppy owners photocopies of all his/her's/puppy's test results so not a problem but shows they're not foolproof).

Speaking of KC reg, they got one name wrong (and then corrected it, then amnended it to the wrong version again, then re-corrected it|!), have only sent 4 of the 8 so far and disallowed the name A. Smartie Pants because of the word Pants when there is a dog in our sport who has been allowed to have B. Naughty Knickers. *Sigh*

> disallowed the name A. Smartie Pants because of the word Pants when there is a dog in our sport who has been allowed to have B. Naughty Knickers. *Sigh*

I know a Panda Pants which was allowed......

Our local paper wouldn't let me post about a puppy with 'prick' ears as it was obscene !! I decided 'erect' ears was probably as bad and eventually went with upright lol

At the eye testing I run I have had a couple of dogs registered with the DLR who have been tested and produced their DLR registration. I have also had unregistered dogs get tested, mostly cross breeds although they do usually come for testing because there is something wrong with their eyes.
The KC registers are the pedigree register, the activity register and the Companion Dog register. All of these have unique registration numbers on them so can be used for eye testing. As Penny GC has said you can also use ISDS registration certificates. I have several ISDS collies come to my testing session in Haddenham for testing.

>disallowed the name A. Smartie Pants because of the word Pants when there is a dog in our sport who has been allowed to have B. Naughty Knickers. *Sigh*

I wanted a dog registered as ****  my affix  Smarty Pants and it wasn't allowed.  This was a Long Coat Chihuahua.  I don't know what the problem was, but I was very disappointed.

I don't know if the GCCF have tightened up on this but 20 years ago I knew someone who registered a kitten as [Affix] Chub Pants.

Polly, I would take my unregd cross-breed for eye testing (first cross between two breeds with issues in common), and my purebred rescue dog, if there was a session I could get to... very little in my area unfortunately, and none within reach of public transport.

The lady at the KC seemed to think that Pants was already an affix. I queried this as it is a word in common usage and was told they'd ring me back. They never did and the new owner was happy to have A. Xtra Smart (the stud dog is F. Xrated so this tied in quite nicely).

The eye and hearing testing my pups had meant 8 hours in the van and a 275 mile journey, just me and 8 pups lol. It would have been impossible by public transport, so feel for you.

Many of the eye panelists hold regular clinics at some of the bigger practises every so often.  My local panelist does, but I prefer to go to where he is based as it is only under 20 miles. 

Before hubby I used to ask a friend or my Dad to take me and pay their petrol.

Lots of breed clubs as show societies also run sessions, they are usually advertised in the canine press, but also on the eye scheme page of the BVA site is a monthly list.

Hello Sassinak,

You should move to Eastbourne ! There's a scaffolding company that advertises 'Satisfaction With Every Erection'
I'm sure 'prick ears ' would be no problem there.

Sorry, I realise this is off topic .

We have a dog in our breed who is (owners affix) Smarty pants, so it could be the name was refused as too close to an existing one to make it unique.

My affix is Aramisty, is the other person's similar to this (guess they wouldn't have granted it if it was though). The KC lady said Pants was an affix, which I doubt somehow.

Using the name checker I got this result:
Search result for Goldmali Smarty Pants
The name does not conflict with a registered name in the breed or an active Kennel Name.

Please could we get back on topic - this seems to have drifted off somewhat ;-)