Hi,just wondering if anybody can offer any tips as to how i can get 11month old gwen to retrieve?I had a bit of trouble with jess,two,but at least she would go and get it,the problem was in the formal present,but we worked through that and now shes great.I throw for gwen and theres nothing,not a spark,no matter what a pratt i make of myself.The most i get is she will occasionally pick it up,then when i say"yes!good girl!"and "come"she l either drop it ,or take one step and drop it,if she then comes without the ball/tuggy,i still tell her good girl,because she came,am i confusing her?she certainly looks confused!Occasionally,if im in the kitchen,and shes outside,a ball will roll in from the door,you look up in time to see her back off,so il then throw it up the garden for her,sometimes she repeats it,i think,well,its the best weve had so far!When were out on a walk and i throw the ball,jess gets it and gwen pinches it off her-she will often get there first and carry it a bit before dropping it,the problem seems to be when shes on her own.This is really odd to me,every collie ive ever owned(and some non-collies)have loved retrieve games!
At this rate,we will never get out of bronze,weve had 2 attempts already!
while were on the subject,if you have an off couple of days/weeks-how do you motivate yourself to do your training?Im really struggling at the moment,we do bits but i feel like im letting my dogs down.Still,im back at class next week,thats got to help!
sorry for the rambling post.

Hi, we had the same problem with our little crossbreed.  Puppy class was a hoot whenever we came to the retrieve. We finally hit on the solution when we bought an Air Kong tennis ball. For some reason she will fetch a squeaky ball till the cows come home. Maybe she thinks it is prey ?

They were recently on sale locally at £1.00 each or 3 for £3.99...............

For dogs that don't retrieve naturally, the best and easiest way is to clicker train it, and do it in many small stages. Stage one is to just look at the article, stage 2 touch it with nose or mouth, stage 3 mouth it, stage 4 hold it, stage 5 run after it etc etc. I did this with one of mine that had no natural wish to retrieve. After I'd done it, one evening she was in the living room with the toydogs and clearly fancied something to do (I was watching telly), so she emptied their toybox by bringing me each toy in it one by one, knowing she'd be clicked and rewarded for bringing me stuff. Only trouble was, there were 40 toys in the box LOL.

What do you mean by not getting out of bronze -is it your training club's classes that use the term ? Only asking because none of the Good Citizens tests have a retrieve in them, only play which is different and never requires a retrieve.

> They were recently on sale locally at £1.00 each or 3 for £3.99...............

I would buy them individually then

many trainers teach retrieve without teaching HOLD and GIVE first . Either use the clicker method outlined  or teach HOLD (toy or light dumbbell) and teach the dog to pick up from any surface , chair , sofa  etc . Always be next to it and with both hands either side of the dogs mouth  teach GIVE.Do not throw anything . Go back to basics.Praise at every step , voice , clicker or reward.If you heading towards obedience the dog has to hold a dumbbell evenly so a controlled hold is the best way . I used to wrap the centre of a wood dumbbell with foam , rubbed over with a piece of roasted liver.You will need to train separately and not throw on the walk , as there is competition between the girls.When training gets ugh I used the house as fun..hide things  for them to seek , teach them to  do scent , find your car keys , handbag etc.

 

>> They were recently on sale locally at £1.00 each or 3 for £3.99...............

> I would buy them individually then

Sorry, I was being flippant and joking. The pricing error was at PAH.  Much cheaper online or from local independent pet shops.

Just to say that the retrieve skill learned with the ball has proved to be a  transferrable one as we now have a solid retrieve with other objects. Guess we were just lucky to have found the key to this after trying other approaches.

>This is really odd to me,every collie ive ever owned(and some non-collies)have loved retrieve games!<br />

Totally agree!  My BC boy wants to carry on retrieving long after he's worn me out!  :-)

Be wary of any of the Air Kongs, I bought several in different shapes and within minutes they had stopped squeaking, the squeaker bits were missing, some were spat out on the floor but one I never found so presumed the dogs had swallowed it,hoped it hadn't gone into the lungs, I emailed to complain twice but never got a reply, I had bought some for my Mums dachsie too so went and removed the squeakers from them before giving them to her but she wasn't that interested because they didn't squeak.

Some dogs just have no interest in playing fetch, Penny my Mum's dog would do it all day long but mine,same breed, have no interest at all regardless of what treat is on offer.

thankyou so much for all the replies!Im delighted because even my trainer didnt come up with your ideas,the breaking down,teaching hold,not running two together,etc,i just got told to"gee her up"and make it a lot of fun,which hasnt worked,no matter how i flap around-gwen doesnt seem to be a dog you can gee up! Goldmali,in our bronze test its only a "tuggy" retrieve-i e,play tug for a bit,then throw tuggy a little way for the dog to bring back and carry on tugging.I couldnt get her even to play tug in class at first,got her doing it at home or outside,but even when i was allowed to try the test outside,she d tug,but not fetch it when thrown(only a couple of feet)Personally I think she was a bit worried in class,though its a well controlled one,because she d sleep through it,and have to be woken for each exercise,i reckon it was her self defence!But anyway,thanks again,so much.Ill let you know how we get on!

I back chain the retrieve starting in a chair and the "present".

Once I have this I then start with holding the retrieve article and it touching it, then holding it.

I then move the article to the left and right, I then put it on a chair, and eventually on the floor.

Once the dog will pick it up from any surface and any height (and now automatically comes into the present) I only THEN put in distance.  I put it (not throw it) on the floor further from my chair, far to left and right and even behind me, this conditions the dog to pick it up from any place and still go back to the automatic position ie present.

I will then get the dog to carry it around.

When it will do all this without mouthing or chomping I will throw it.

With an ultra keen dog I will send it out and recall it, stop it, do heelwork etc so the dog has "his ears on" instead of automatic mode.

BTW as a KCGCDS approved Examiner for all levels, playing with your dog can be LOADS of things, not necessarily tuggy or having anything in its mouth.

HTH

I back chain the retrieve starting in a chair and the "present".

Once I have this I then start with holding the retrieve article and it touching it, then holding it.

I then move the article to the left and right, I then put it on a chair, and eventually on the floor.

Once the dog will pick it up from any surface and any height (and now automatically comes into the present) I only THEN put in distance.  I put it (not throw it) on the floor further from my chair, far to left and right and even behind me, this conditions the dog to pick it up from any place and still go back to the automatic position ie present.

I will then get the dog to carry it around.

When it will do all this without mouthing or chomping I will throw it.

With an ultra keen dog I will send it out and recall it, stop it, do heelwork etc so the dog has "his ears on" instead of automatic mode.

BTW as a KCGCDS approved Examiner for all levels, playing with your dog can be LOADS of things, not necessarily tuggy or having anything in its mouth.

HTH

thankyou tohme!lots more food for thought.teaching that way must give a lot more solid retrieve than a haphazard"throw it and fingers crossed method"!

Another vote for the seperate 'hold' method here. I taught my Cavalier to retrieve and love retrieving using this method in about 2 weeks flat. Must put in the time on my youngster now and get her doing it too! But the result was a really good solid hold - I can tug at the dumbell gently with one hand, but until I bring both hands to it and say 'give' she will not let go. Took her a little while to work out that she could walk while holding it, bless her!

I had a job with teaching Isla my sheltie to retrieve as to her breed it does not come naturally!  Helpfully I did manage to buy on the internet a very small and light dumb-bell that she could manage as she has such a little mouth.  She has always loved retrieving her rubber ball (with holes for small mouth) but would never bring it right back to me.  So, using the dumb bell I sat in a chair, got her to sit and  take the dumb bell in her mouth - take and then give, several times.  She was not really  interested at first but seemed to get the message.  Then still sitting I would throw the dumbell a little way.  Sometimes she would almost bring it back but more often would drop it on the floor.  However I did this every day for what seemed like weeks on end and she at last got the message.

Now I can chuck it down the garden and she will race after it and bring it right back to me, even  managing a passable sit.  Has taken a lot of time and patience though.  Hannah our hound (Greek) has abolutely no interest despite lots of trying on my husband's part and I can't imagine that she ever will - she isn't interested in chasing a ball even.  I do think a lot of it is down to the dog's personality - Isla being the exuberant type and Hannah is somewhat lugubrious and aloof - and has her nose constantly on the ground!!

Snowflake

Just quickly flicked through the other posts so aomeone may have already put thisbut how I would see it is you're asking her to multi task and that's not something dogs do well!! Not at her age. You throw the ball, she goes out, you DISTURB her thought pattern by telling her good girl, she then thinks what's good? Drops the ball to think, and then you call her back which she does beautifully!! Or she gets the ball starts to comeback with it and again YOU disturb the thought process by rewarding verbally. So no more talking to her if she picks up the ball!! As for the interaction between the 2 collies that just sounds like toy possession to me, typical collie!! Bossy bossy bossy!! Mine do just the same, Abbey never gets a look in. So take her out separately and try that.

I would also shorten the distance of your retrieve and use a line, say at most 6 foot to start with, throw ball she goes out gently guide her back in to you, she drops ball you start again. Gradually increase length on line,then get rid of it. Could try teaching her to hold the ball but as you said you're currently struggling with training I would keep it as much on the side of play as possible. Also just as an aside, is your girl completely comfortable at group? If it's too big she might feel bit nervous or put off retrieving/performing there. As a trainer an 11 month old collie should have flown the bronze, I would suspect maybe training isn't fun for either of you just now so maybe take that break and release some pressure off you both, sometimes us collie owners get as obsessed by things as our dogs. And you don't need a retrieve for a bronze course either, maybe she's bored of it?! I run trick training course,mini agility, clicker etc for both dogs and owners to stop boredom, personally get bored to death of obedience all the time!!

thankyou,food for thought there!i did wonder if i was mixing her up with the good girls,but i hoped to encourage!Annoyingly,id just started to get some enthusiasm back(fun at agility with the 2 oldest!)when i got a streaming cold thats knocked everything for six again!Im pretty sure youre right and she didnt enjoy class much,but we missed a course and started back last fri(just before the cold struck!)and this time she seemed happier.She wouldve passed bronze both times,everything was good,watch,heelwork,recall,doorway control,stays,food manners,just the tuggy thing lets her down-its not a proper retrieve,just a tuggy game,then the toy to be thrown a couple of feet,pup to fetch and carry on tugging.
I will try the shorter retrieve,thankyou,and im working on the hold with some success.I agree about getting obsessed!Yet im not competetive at all,really!
however-shes beginning to realise(doh!)that if she drops the ball where im sittin-ive been doing a lot of that since the cold-how can a mere cold make you feel so rubbish!-,it gets thrown,which then everybody chases,and gwen does it again!Maybe the light dawns!Thanks for your help!

snowflake,im sorry,ive only just read your post,i wasnt ignoring you!my computers been out of action for a few days.Thankyou for the ideas.Gwen is definately not exuberant,bless her!Jess was,but i even had problems with her retrieve,not the one gwen is doing,but the more formal,with a dumbell-but at least i felt there was something to work with,and like you say,it took weeks but we got there.Sometimes,with gwen,its like pulling teeth!still,we ll get there-i hope!

Hope your cold is better soon!! If it's any consolation you have made me get up and teach a few send aways and a good heel work to music front command with several of mine, as I realised been a while here too!! What sort of dog trainer am I?