Hi everyone,

i am new to the forum although I have been browsing many interesting and helpful articles on here.

I have a female pedigree small breed bitch, she is 2 1/2 years old and came into season 2 days ago.   I have been advised that to improve her chance, I could give her a course of broad spectrum antibiotic.  I have been suggested to use Tretacycline.  However, I am not able to get hold of this, but I do have some oxytretacycline.  Internet research reviewed that Oxy is from family of tretacycline.  I am wondering if anyone had any experience with Oxy or would any one advice another type of antibiotic?  Thanks in advance

As antibiotics are all prescription, you really need to have a word with your vet here.

You need to see your vet for professional, qualified advice as to what, if any, would be the best antibiotic and the correct dosage. Otherwise you could do a lot more harm than good.

(How on earth have you got any oxytet? That suggests that they're left over when you didn't complete a prescribed course - this is what causes antibiotic-resistance, and is a very dangerous practice.)

I have been advised that to improve her chance, I could give her a course of broad spectrum antibiotic.

Is this normal practice with small breeds?     I have a small breed and have never heard of the practice of giving antibiotics "just in case"  

Who gave you this advice?

In addition, Tetracycline may be in the same family as Oxytetracycline, but may be totally unsuitable for the purpose you are thinking of - especially if you just have it 'hanging around'

Not that long ago some stud dogs owners used to advise (or even insist upon) a short course of synulox and vets would happily give you this for your bitch prior to mating. Most vets now refuse.

Years ago a stud dog owner insisted we had our bitch put on AB's, when I spoke to my vet he point blankly refused, said he would not prescribe AB's if not needed and there was no reason for her to go on them.  We found a different stud dog.

Hi all

Thank you all for your input.  I dont have oxytretacycline laying about, I am actually on a 6 months course to treat acne. I had recently spayed a bitch and following which she was prescribed with antibiotic from my vet, it costed £55 for a 7 days supply of the drugs, awfully expensive.  A quick research on the net review that the same drugs are sold for 70 pence per tablet!  The mark up was extortionate! I do understand vet needs to make a living.  I am not slagging off vets as no doubt they are providing a good service.  In the old days we could pop into vet clinic and grab few items off the shelves with reasonable prices, but now a days, the prices are very much inflated massively.  Recently when I complained to a family member who is a medical doctor, she stated that a lot of the antibiotic on the market are simply just brand name, and if you know what you looking for, certain human drugs are very much the same as those prescribed by  Vet.

Regarding giving bitches a pre mate dose of antibiotic, I agree, my initial reaction is why give drugs when she doesnt need it.  But any vet would tell you that in general most of the bitches or dogs have non life threatening bacteria infection of some sort. If you do a sawb test on your healthy dogs the  chances is that he or she is infected with bacteria or fungus.

I do agree a routine dose of antibiotic would most probably increases tolerance, hence its definitely not advisable.

However, my bitch had one a week of antibiotic following her last C section a year ago...........no I didnt breed her at the age of 1 and a half years old.  She had a litter before a year ago with the previous owner. Like i said, she only had one course of antibiotic for 7 days in her life, I am not worried that she would develop tolerance. I am not an expert, but just common sense. I could be wrong.

The reason that I mentioned Tretacycline was because thats the family of antibiotic that Vet generally prescribe for wide range of bacterial infection.  There are many articles on the internet written by vets about the use of tretacyline on canine.

I am not dismissing the helpful comments made by you all, I am taking them onboard.  i will have another chat with my vet 2morow. 

best

> I dont have oxytretacycline laying about, I am actually on a 6 months course to treat acne.

I hope that you won't mind me pointing this out, but if you were to actually give your dog antibiotics that were not prescribed by a vet, it is illegal.

>Recently when I complained to a family member who is a medical doctor, she stated that a lot of the antibiotic on the market are simply just brand name, and if you know what you looking for, certain human drugs are very much the same as those prescribed by  Vet.

However, with the cascade system, a vet must, by law, only prescribe products which have been licenced for use on animals even if there is a human version available. He can only prescribe a human drug if there is no animal-licenced version. It's not his choice; it's the law and he risks being struck off if he breaks the law.

>I dont have oxytretacycline laying about, I am actually on a 6 months course to treat acne.

I'm sure that a suitable dose for you would be different to that your dog would need - this is why you need to contact your vet.

> I hope that you won't mind me pointing this out, but if you were to actually give your dog antibiotics that were not prescribed by a vet, it is illegal.

Not to mention using drugs supplied and paid for by the NHS.

Even if you dont take on board the legal aspects of giving 'prescribed for humans' drugs to a dog, you may be concerned about the toxicity of drugs and their effects on emerging ova from the ovaries.

I am loath to give anything to my bitches - let alone a highly potent drug, of which I had no idea of doseage and toxicity. Starting a pregnancy with already damaged eggs may not be the most successful plan.

Getting back to the real reason for the post.

There is nothing wrong with giving your girl a dose of anti biotics prior to mating, in fact in our breed no self respecting breeder will touch a bitch who isn't on a course, as being so low to the ground their 'bits' can touch when having a wee and they are prone to high levels of bacteria. A bitch will not build up a tolerance on just one 7 day course of anti biotics given every 2 years or so when she's being mated, they only build up a tolerance if they are giving the drugs repeatedly.

Do go to your vet and get the correct anti biotic, (most will give you something like Synulux ), as some are not suitable for the purpose you want them for.

Good luck and we hope your girl has a succesful mating.

> A bitch will not build up a tolerance on just one 7 day course of anti biotics given every 2 years or so when she's being mated

It is not the bitch, or person, that builds up the tolerance but the bacteria.  By willy, nilly use of antibiotics we help create ever more difficult infections to deal with.
If the anatomy of a breed has led to difficulties (putting aside the issues around that!) then swabbing before mating and treating if necessary would be more appropriate.
I would also agree with Tooolz.  Subjecting developing embryos to unecessary drugs is not something I would consider sensible.

>A bitch will not build up a tolerance on just one 7 day course of anti biotics given every 2 years or so when she's being mated, they only build up a tolerance if they are giving the drugs repeatedly.

It's the bacteria themselves that develop resistance to misused/inappropriately used antibiotics, not the host animal. If an incorrect dosage is given or a course isn't finished the effect is like vaccinating them against that particular antibiotic, and it will no longer kill them. They'll survive, multiply in the individual and them spread to others, being equally untreatable. Think MRSA - it's the exact same scenario.

> If an incorrect dosage is given or a course isn't finished the effect is like vaccinating them against that particular antibiotic

Even when correctly prescribed and administered repeated use leads to organisms mutating.

Yes; the NHS confirms that the overuse of antibiotics in recent years has played a major part in antibiotic resistance. This includes using antibiotics to treat minor conditions that would have got better anyway or not finishing a recommended course of antibiotics.

Hi all, thanks for all the helpful comments.  I took her to Pxtdoctor this afternoon and came back with with a 14 tablets of synulox at a cost of £35 plus £32 consultation. I informed her that I was thinking of giving oxytretacycline 250mg every 12 hours to my bitch the vet said the oxy is fine but I should not stop oxy 48 hours prior to mating. .........putting aside the legality of the matter.

The vet did not do a swap test, I told her the purpose and she had one look at the bitch and touched her backside and commented how well she behaved.......done.  Antibiotic prescribed at a cost of £70 in total, ....um.....is she not breaching her professional ethics that prescribing drugs without cause......    we live in a complicated world.......

Thank you all for your comments again.  i am signing off.  I just took delivery of ovulation test pads, never used one of this before, but will do few pre test, and if the LH level increases then I will take her to a swap test! !  very very exciting time!

Just an observation here about human tolerance to drugs or antibiotics.  I think such broad statement needs qualification.  My humble opinion is that common sense dictates, if one takes antibiotic regularly say every 2-3 weeks over a significant period of time, of course he or she would built up tolerance.   But if one say take a course of antibiotic every 3-4 years, common sense tells me he would not become tolerance to antibiotic. 

Bacteria evolves all the time, new mutations of the different strains are constantly changing.  This may be one of the many reasons why antibiotic became ineffective.  This could be another reason, beside money, drugs company  rushing around pumping out new drugs every 5 seconds!!! Comparing to say 20 years ago, the amount of prescription drugs have increased by.....well, a lot.  Do we all built up tolerance over the time ???? 

Very interesting debate. But may be any time. 

> Do we all built up tolerance over the time ???? 
>

We don't build up tolerance the organisms do.  I'm not sure you have read anything that anyone else has written in this thread have you?

Yes, bacteria mutate all the time that is the point.  That is evolution, every living thing evolves to survive any changes in their environment.

When that environment regularly contains antibiotics, naturally, those that have evolved in a way to resist them will be the winners.  Living on to multiply and multiply. 

You take a swab, just a swab not a swap test :)
It is not possible to send a swab to the lab for culture and sensitivity once a course of antibiotics are started.

yes Stooge, i do apologize for not being specific or inaccurate in my description. 

You were talking about Mr Big man Dawin's principle of horizontal evolution are we not ??? Just not sure whether you were referring to inherent or acquired resistance .  ;-)

......um........we are all here to share ideas and experiences are we not?  Perhaps you should come down from that mighty horse of yours.  Sharing ideas,not to be thought an English lesson ! ;-)

This is supposed to be friendly and fun forum, stooge!  And i am sure its boring to be right all the time don't you agree?...oops, would you not agree?   But nevertheless I appreciate your helpful comments. 

But, I am no expert on this.  My conclusion from all the comments is that regular use of antibiotic may be bad for the dog and should be avoided if possible. 

At my last attempt to breed her, she mated but either didnt take or lost them shortly after.  An experienced breeder took pre mate swab and found evidence of small amount of vaginitis, that may be the reason the mating was not successful.  Now that I have obtained synulox from the vet, hopefully, this will make a difference.

The vet prescribed 250 mg every 12 hours for a period of 10 days, from day 5 onwards.  He also commented that generally he would prescribe them for a period of 14 days.  500mg per day seems like a lot.  I have read a similar thread here regarding the same concern.

Anyway for now I amm keeping a close eye on her .

Sign out

I don't know about fun and I don't think I have been unfriendly just stated my understanding, the forum being an information exchange.
The information you are now giving is a little different to the previous

>I told her the purpose and she had one look at the bitch and touched her backside and commented how well she behaved.......done.

Personally I would have had a swab taken again prior to the use of antibiotics as the previous mild infection may not have still been present.

>My conclusion from all the comments is that regular use of antibiotic may be bad for the dog and should be avoided if possible. 

Antibiotics should only be used to treat an existing infection, not as a preventative. This is misuse and is what allows the bacteria to develop resistance to the drugs.

>The vet prescribed 250 mg every 12 hours for a period of 10 days, from day 5 onwards.  He also commented that generally he would prescribe them for a period of 14 days.  500mg per day seems like a lot.

250mg twice daily is a standard dosage when treating infection in medium-to-large breeds. Anything less is as bad as not completing a course; it encourages bacterial resistance.

Plus of course we mustn't forget that antibiotics also kill the 'good' bacteria in the body, so digestive problems usually result from a course of treatment until the gut is recolonised by the essential bacteria. They're truly not drugs to be given willy-nilly.

>I just took delivery of ovulation test pads, never used one of this before,

I tried them a couple of years ago.  And won't use them again.  Just a heads up to say that some of us have found that the edges can be sharp, and scratch the vulva.  Apologies if you've already been told this.

I snip the sharp corners off the ovulation pads as my girls vulvas are only small compared to bigger breeds, they have worked well for me and others I have recommended them to.

I agree, the ovulation pad is sharp on the edges, my girl hates it. She is on day 8th today, the pads had been positive since day 5.  Its difficult to interpret the results. i can tell whether the result spikes or not.  Certainly positive but .......The stud came for a visit today and tried to jump on her. My girl is so passive that its difficult to tell whether she is willing or simply indifferent ;-)

Yes, about the vet, he did try to justify the prescription.  Listen to this. the vet briefly examined her and said that she 'couldnt find any reason not to prescribe the antibio!!!!!!!!  My earlier point was that these days its all about money. Hence i am quite sceptical about 'professional opinion' and always try to apply common sense.

The pads change to wine colour when she ovulates, the eggs do not mature for a further 48 hrs. which is when matings should start.

There is no middle of the road with the pads, pink is negative, any wine colour is positive.