I have just been chatting to a friend up in Scotland , she told me of a open show she had entered at the weekend where the judge asked a puppy owner in MP to leave the ring as she was having trouble getting her 6m old puppy bitch to stand... after the show my friend and others went to console her apparently it was her first show and she was a novice .. can a judge do this ? she told the puppy owner that 'new rules and all that' she had no choice... friend said her puppy didnt behave any worse than her own pup.

Is this true ? if so I am shocked..

Not sure about the rule but am absolutely disgusted. I would far rather see a 6 month old puppy behaving like a puppy. Hope the owner was comforted by the other exhibitors and not put off for good.

The "new rules" would presumably be judges not awarding prizes to dogs in poor health or poor temperament -could the judge had felt the pup was nervous and would be better off leaving the ring?

dont know Marianne .. its hard when its second hand..but friend said it was her own puppy's first show and she was nervous of everything too  but the judge didnt seem bothered about that .. by the sound of it she didnt give this lady and her puppy  a chance to calm the pup ,I hear it enraged lots of ch judge/breeder people who were watching... I have seen judges in the past ask people to move the dog then go over it afterwards for one so young.. to give them a chance.

Like you say Starryeyes, it is difficult when you were not there to witness the incident first-hand. From the original post, I would assume that the pup was just being difficult as was maybe not used to being handled, or maybe was just being a typical puppy!.
I think the new rules surely refer to poor temperament, ie a pup that would not be handled due to extreme nervousness or a 'savage' disposition. It seems very unfair that the pup was not given adequate chance to settle.

There was a recent well publicised incident involving a toy breed puppy where both the owner and the judge were fined, one for dragging their pup around the ring when it didn't move and  the judge for placing it, so this may well have been what the judge referred to as new policy.

It is a little sad that the KC sees the need to do this to appease the critic s of dog shows and show dogs.

Well, I may be wrong but I believed that the only reason a handler can be asked to leave the ring is if the judge thinks the dog is sick or dangerous, different from the statement that a dog with a 'fault' or exaggeration detrimental to the dogs well-being, health or soundness should be penalised by the judge, something similar to which appears on ever schedule.

Can only think that in this case the judge thought the puppy was in some way stressed because even if it's behaviour were considered un-typical that is no reason to send it from the ring only a good reason not to place.

Think the case mentioned by Brainless was considered cruel and detrimental to the hobby and the handler was fined for inflicting the treatment, the judge for allowing it and worse then placing the dog.

This happened recently in our breed at a Champ show; first time I've heard of dogs being sent out, they were well-known faces too. Apparently their tails were down and they were a bit nervous.

Again difficult to give an informed opinion as I wasn't there,but certainly I have had my own puppies wanting to play and not behave in the show ring and have always found the judges sympathetic and supportative.Often asking me at the end to move my pup again.Must say my second bred can be a real pain to show.The worse comment I have received from a judge at NW&P champ show was that my second breed isn't meant for the show ring,and therefore shouldn't be shown (bred in general not the individual pup)!!!????!!!!!

Difficult to tell from your comment. If it was excited and not standing then no it shouldn't be sent out, but if it was really nervous and the judge couldn't get near it then yes there is reason for sending out I suppose. A champ show judge was really nice though to some puppy's recently in my breed and tried to persevere with them and still placed them.

Well, I may be wrong but I believed that the only reason a handler can be asked to leave the ring is if the judge thinks the dog is sick or dangerous,

The KC guide to judges: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/488/guidejudges.pdf
Quote:Chapter 2, Canine health and welfare 2:6:
"Judges should never award prizes to dogs that are suffering from any condition which would adversely affect their health or welfare. For example:
lameness - including 'hopping'
inappropriate temperament whether this is excessive timidity or aggression" (My italics)

As was said, it's not long ago it was all over the dog papers and we discussed it here -thread started by Yvonne (Trevor).

by the sound of it she didnt give this lady and her puppy  a chance to calm the pup ,

I agree 100 % this is plain wrong. Exhibitors are human and we're not all good at handling and may need another chance -especially with a pup. (Or it may be a brilliant handler but inexperienced pup.) I'm total rubbish at handling myself (which is why I usually get hubby and daughter to do it LOL) and I've certainly come across judges that have given me another chance to settle the dog.

The people who I know personally who have been in the breed for 30 yrs or more judge at crufts and are well respected were there and was appauled from what my friend said she took the lady aside for a word.
Personally at an open show with a pup so young and a very inexperienced handler the judge should have been more sympathetic.

Should we not be encouraging people  ... if so how does this help?

a lady i know, her dog was three when she got him someone did not want him anymore went back to the breeder and the breeder encouraged her to start showing him she did and a judge said to her why do you bother when you can't even get the dog to move properly it should know better at its age, just because it was three did not mean it had actually been showing since a puppy not everyone shows some people decided that they would like to have a go, thankfully my friend started attending ringcraft and has progressed from open shows to champ and is doing very well. But with a puppy you have to be a bit forgiving and you do want a  puppy to enjoy its experience and not to end up showing like a robot and not have any sparkle about them and get bored before they get to 12 months old, i am sure we have all had pups that walk lovely outside the ring and then behave like complete idiots in the ring they bounce and spin and sniff the grass etc i hope your friend carrys on showing and people in her breed give her support she requires

The KC guide to judges

Think that is what I said Goldmali or if I did not it is what I intended - it does not say the dog has to be sent out of the ring it says should not receive an award.

Would be happy to know if there is an instruction that judges should eject from the ring any dog that is "suffering from any condition which would adversely affect their health or welfare." rather than not to award a placing.

Looking at your photo Starryeyes I think I was at this show as my folks were showing. Three puppies (possibly minor puppy) went into the ring and the handlers set up their dogs, someone spoke to me for a few minutes and when I looked back there were only 2 pups in the ring. A lot of people were commenting on the judge for various things!!

Think that is what I said Goldmali or if I did not it is what I intended - it does not say the dog has to be sent out of the ring it says should not receive an award.

Surely that is the same thing?  A dog being sent out because of showing aggression is withheld on and award listed as WHD in results.

Not in my book you can send a dog out of the ring without assessing it if you think it ill or dangerous.

You can judge a dog that is " suffering from any condition which would adversely affect their health or welfare." 
but not place it.

Think this is where the problem is some people think that the instruction means that the dog should be sent from the ring at any stage even before judging others think it means they should not be awarded places - does anyone have clarification of this from the KC?

Not in my book you can send a dog out of the ring without assessing it if you think it ill or dangerous.

That is classed as withholding though. The way I read the rule book, the only other thing you could do would be to exclude the dog from the show and actually have the show management ensure it left the show and did not come back. Just sending it out of the ring is withholding an award.

RJS dont know the name of the show but sound like the one.

judgedredd : I dont know the lady concerned so cant pass on your good wishes ... my friend who was one of the other people in the ring with a pup was very concerned about this lady and the way she was treated .

thank you to everyone who have given thier views .. I think these sort if incidents should be discussed.

> I think these sort if incidents should be discussed.

The trouble is not one commentator knows what went on first hand.  All I am reading is "apparently", "I heard", etc, etc.

Possibly if the puppy was so nervous it was just lying there cowering, which I have seen at shows in the past, the judge thought it would be kinder to tell the owner to withdraw it. But in that case she should have kindly explained that the puppy was too scared on this occasion, and encouraged her to do more ringcraft, particularly as the handler was new too, which any half decent judge would spot pretty quickly. If the puppy was just playing up, or sitting instead of standing, or refusing to walk properly, it seems excessive to ask them to leave the ring.

> But in that case she should have kindly explained that the puppy was too scared on this occasion, and encouraged her to do more ringcraft, particularly as the handler was new too, which any half decent judge would spot pretty quickly.

Perhaps she did :)

Not from the sound of the reaction of the lady concerned, though of course we weren't there to see.

> though of course we weren't there to see.

Exactly!
We only have a third hand account.  It may also be that the lady was flustered and when people are flustered, I can categorically tell you :), they do not always recall exactly what was said to them.  I think in this instance we may never know.

The show caters for five breeds, one judge did 3 of them (one breed had no entries) along with BiS, BV etc BUT she was also flying home and needed to be at the airport which is a good hour away by around 4pm so she was in a hurry! She rattled through the classes and IMHO seemed a bit disinterested in the dogs in front of her. I saw the 3 pups go into the ring but I didn't see what happened, although I heard that the pup wouldn't let the judge look at it's mouth and most folk were saying that the judge should have asked the handler to let her see it's mouth since it was a young pup. Other folk were saying that she should have asked the owner to move the pup and then try to look at it's mouth after it moved. My parents both showed under the same judge (different breed though) and they both said that the judge was a bit rough going over their dogs.

thanks for posting that info.. just the same as  what my friend said who was in the ring with her! I havent posted on this since some people seem to be looking for an online argument which I refuse to be part of.

thanks :)

My mum & dad are friends with a lady who was in the same class with her own pup, my dad spoke to her after the class and came back and told mum & I what had happened. I hope it hasn't put the puppy owner off showing, they all looked lovely.

As you said in reality the judge should of just asked for the owner to show the mouth, that's no reason for asking it to leave the class.

We still have no idea of the reality though. 
As yet not one single poster saw what happened let alone heard what the judge said and definately not what she was thinking.

Looks like your friend was right about the judge. There seems to be enough comments from people who were actually at the show to justify what your friend has said. Disgusting behaviour from the judge. As for making a comment to the novice owner about 'new rules' it is a shame that the owner did not put a complaint in to the Show Secretary. Every exhibitor deserves their dog to be gone over unless vicious.