I notice that in many of the breeds hip scoring is seen as a health screening requirement.However elbows dont appear to come into that category.Could someone please explain why this is.Thanks.

It seems that only a few breeds are particularly prone to this issue.

I know of only one of my breed in the UK (sired by a dog I bred) put through the elbow screening (owners new to the breed) and the result was 0/0. 

In the USA a few people have also done elbows and every oen ahs been normal.

In Norway Elbows are going to become a requirement so will be interested to see if they pick up any abnormal results.

Yes it depends what issues are a problem in each individual breed, so GSDs have an issue with elbows so they should be elbow scored, border collies it's not an issue at the moment although a few dogs are scored.  If an issue arises then there is often a health test - unfortunately not for every issue, epilepsy is one and of course hip/elbow scores are just a 'guide' they don't identify the underlying genetic nature of HD or ED, due to the complexity.  There's a visual test for narrow angled glaucoma in border collies (at least) - but again it's a guide, they don't know how it's passed on at the moment.

Even though it is not a requirement of lots of breeds (It is mine) for any breed over a certain size it would be good to do elbow scoring. Highlight any problems early and deal with them. Any dog could be affected with ED and if you are planning to breed it is worth looking at doing whatever tests are available. Some health tests are primarily aimed at certain breeds as the chance of the problem occuring in another breed is very slim, however ED and HD are common in most large breeds to some extent so my personal view is to have them done. I think any breed of dog over collie size would benifit from an ED scoring scheme, and some shorter but heavy breeds like the Clumber for example.
Aileen

I'm surprised that it does not run alongside 'hip scoring' as a requirement.

It is a fairly new health scheme and has been taken up in breeds where problems have been found, it does appear to be a large breed issue.

Slipping Patellas, for which there is no KC/BVA scheme though schemes exist in other countries, seems to be a small breed issue and perhaps this should be developed for the susceptible breeds..

If one argued that all available health tests were done on every single breed then it would cost thousands and many of these tests would be rather pointless where there is no demonstrable issue.

Hips and eye problems are fairly universal so are a starting point.

I had toyed with the idea of getting elbows done at the same time as hips, but as it isn't a breed issue and it would have cost twice as much as hips alone I decided not. 

Out of interest is there a breed score datasheet like for hips for the elbow scheme?

"Out of interest is there a breed score datasheet like for hips for the elbow scheme?"           I dont think there is.

More and more bullies are being scored but the results are not advertised unless you do the kennel club health test finder, and most have come out with 0,0 but percentage wise at the moment there are not enough done in our breed to assertain if there is a problem.

Am I right in thinking with the scoring going from 0,0- 3,3 anything over 0,0 should not be bred from

I think I read that a 0/0 or 0/1 were OK, will have to re-read the notes on the scheme.
http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/chs_elbow.pdf
"....The overall grade for an animal is simply the higher of the two individual grades.....

ADVICE ON BREEDING
The overall grade is used internationally as the basis far breeding advice.
Breeders are advised to select dogs with grades of ID or 1 in order to reduce
the risk of ED in their offspring."

I think ID is a typo and should be Zero.

Am I right in thinking with the scoring going from 0,0- 3,3 anything over 0,0 should not be bred from

A 0/0 is a score of 0, a 0/1 is a score of 1, a 1/1 is also a 1, a 1/2 is a 2, a 2/2 is a 2 -etc. You only count the highest score, you do not add them together. The advice is to not breed from any above a 1.

0 or 1 are reguaded as off breeding quality anything over is not recomended though still used (as with hips over the breed average) as a rule of thumb it is stated by some that a total of 3  from both parents ie sire 1 dam 2 is acceptable, not sure I agree though I preferr all zero's but a 1 is OK.
Bernese have taken up the scheme wholeheartedly
Aileen

> Am I right in thinking...anything over 0,0 should not be bred from

If you rule out anything with a less than perfect score, you risk drastically narrowing the gene pool. In breeds without much take-up that could be potentially disastrous. 

In GSDs I would want only 0 dogs to be used, or you do run the risk of bringing ED into the lines (as we don't know yet how it works genetically).  In breeds where it's becoming an issue we should encourage scoring. 

Maybe eliminating those with a higher than desirable score IS narrowing the gene pool but how many of you have seen your dogs suffering with elbow dysplasia? If you have seen your dog suffer with such a debilitating disease, you would NOT condone breeding with animals with a score higher than 1, preferably  zero. It is crippling and life reducing.

> you would NOT condone breeding with animals with a score higher than 1

If you have a breed where only a small number of dogs have been elbow scored, then you further restrict your breeding choices according to what's available with a score of 1 or less, then you could seriously risk damaging the future health of your breed. You may reduce the incidence of ED but what else are you doubling up on? Sometimes health crusaders can do more harm than good, albeit with the best of intentions.

Popular sire syndrome is a big health hazard and something that the Animal Health Trust, Jeff Sampson et al are always warning us about. Be careful what you wish for!

In GSDs where the dog is elbow scored I wouldn't use anything less than 0.  I have, however, used a stud dog who wasn't scored.  I viewed it 'in the round' looked at his relatives who were all 0, considered the reason he hadn't been scored (bizarrely the vet used by the owner 'doesn't believe in elbow scoring' and owner refused to take the dog anywhere else) and went ahead.  The one pup who has been hip and elbow scored is fine with 0 elbows.

I am aware of reducing gene pool as an example folk may be bored with but is still relevant - in Australia where there is a fairly limited gene pool of border collies a nasty and fatal disease cropped up a storage disease called CL.  The breeders all worked closely together to work out (before the late Alan Wilton identified the gene and developed the DNA test) where the disease lay.  They were very successful in identifying both affected and carrier dogs and bred around them.  Unfortunately those dogs carried another fatal disease TNS (the late Alan Wilton also identified this gene and developed the DNA test) which had been hiding reasonably successfully prior to the CL problem.  Fortunately thanks to Alan Wilton both these horrible diseases can be avoided - although a puppy did die in the UK last year because a breeder didn't test their dogs.  So we do need to avoid limiting the gene pool, but we don't want to introduce ED to lines that are apparently free and I think with GSDs this is possible.  Like with anything we need to view the whole and not just the elbows or hips or eyes...

just to add that whilst initially folk thought it was an 'australian' problem with testing a number of British only lines have been found to have TNS in them, although CL is almost absent (perhaps we exported all the CL carriers early in 20th Century!  With line breeding it would only have been a matter of time before some of the genes bumped up against one another - it's believed there were a couple of litters who suffered TNS a few years ago in UK but it wasn't identified, simply viewed as 'fading puppy' syndrome, but now believed to be TNS.

> So we do need to avoid limiting the gene pool, but we don't want to introduce ED

I do so agree, particularly with your point here:

> Like with anything we need to view the whole and not just the elbows or hips or eyes...

Unfortunately ED is thought to be a polygenic disease all of which are notoriously difficult to develop DNA tests for. All we can do is to have breeding stock scored and results made available in the public domain. Then we are able to make informed decisions. But we do so need to keep the whole picture in mind.