Hi all,

just wondering what anyone's preferences are. Are wins under breed specialists  better than non-breed specialists?  I'm thinking of Champ shows, but is it different at Open shows?

At open shows beware of the non-specialist judge who's trying to clock up more breeds when he/she has no real interest in them or knowledge about them.

There are always exceptions but I prefer the opinion of a breed specialist although you are apt to know before hand what the breed judges opinion of your exhibit is likely to be it can still be helpful to have their opinion as you can temper it with your knowledge of their likes and dislikes and what it is they deem important along with the stock they themselves have.

Have had some very strange comments made to me by non specialists things like, when showing a puppy, please put it on the table (they are shown free standing, difficult on a table) - Oh! aren't they hairy (mine is a double coated Arctic breed) and several other equally strange comments along with the fact that all round judges do not always know how a breed is judged, to see a judge trying to unfurl an Elkhound tail to measure the length is if nothing else entertaining although not all the exhibits are amused and the replacing of feet does not go down that well with some either because they are just not used to having their feet moved around when they are standing.

Non-breed specialists can often be influenced by current trends and in my opinion, they are the ones "fixing" looks in breeds by awarding them top awards. The non breed specialist will often see what is in front of them, assume that's how all examples of the breed look, and think it's fine. A breed specialist is often the only type of judge to go against such a trend and place the odd dog out -if that dog is the one that resembles the breed standard most, regardless of what other judges place. Example: one VERY wellknown allrounder judge said on several occasions that one of my dogs was of incorrect size and therefore placed it last each time they judged. That dog was perfectly within the breed standard, which the breed specialists knew. The fact the dog is different in size to many others is neither here nor there -it IS correct.

To me, wins under breed specialists will always be more worthy. In one of my breeds we also have the situation where the non breed specialist don't always know how to handle and approach the dogs correctly so they can spook the less experienced dogs.

Not saying the non specialists are never good, just that I prefer the specialists every time.

I was asked if my puppy was a welsh springer by a judge in puppy stakes - when i said she was a setter the response was oh right i didn't realise you could get irish setters  with that much white one. Needless to say we didn't get placed.....now she's not the best pup in the world and we only went in for practice with other dogs but I'm not entirely convinced we were judged against our breed standard!

Always feel good being placed under a breed specialist!

HOWEVER... for someone like myself who is relatively new to showing, I always feel my dog has been judged fairly by an all rounder, i.e. the dog judged not who is on the end of the lead.

A friend who bred a lovely male in my breed, had been entering a lot of Open shows with him and doing really well. She wouldn't enter him into Ch shows because she felt too intimidated as nobody knew her or the dog (she feels it a much more level playing field being judged by someone who doesn't know either dog or handler). However, one of our breed specialists was showing at one of these Open shows and after he'd gone BOB and G3, she commented to me outside how much she liked him! I didn't waste any time telling his owner, who somehow summoned the courage to enter her dog under this judge at one of the big Ch shows this summer (the only Ch show he's been entered). Am very pleased to say he's now Cruft's qualified!

We are all beyond thrilled and will be watching Crufts next year with more than the usual interest...

> HOWEVER... for someone like myself who is relatively new to showing, I always feel my dog has been judged fairly by an all rounder, i.e. the dog judged not who is on the end of the lead.
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That can work the other way around.  All rounders will know by watching groups etc who the current top winners are, and if unsure or not very knowledgeable can place dogs/exhibitors they have seen do well before.

I have been in this position when I have had a run of good wins with one of mien and feel certain that on least one occasion the fact that our picture had been prominently in the dog papers just before that we won because of that.

With a  breed specialist I can know what their pet hates and priorities are and also the type they breed or own.

Sometimes it isn't even how you do in the ring under any judge that matters as with a knowledgeable ringside (many of whose opinions matter to you more than the judges) who can make up their own minds on the merits of the dog (granted they haven't necessarily had their hands on them), the actual judges choices don't matter so much as being able to exhibit your dogs in competition with your peers.

As a breeder one then has the opportunity to discuss ones breeding direction with others when one has all the dogs in front of one, what the judge is doing can be secondary.

We often advise would be breeders to get independent assessment of their dogs merits by showing them, this does not just mean the person in the middle of the rings assessment. ;)

There are of course all rounders whose opinions I value and would make extra effort to show under them, same as with breed specialists.  There are those in both categories where I groan if they are judging my favourite shows.  It isn't just the dogs that are being judged ;)

To be honest to get a real relevant opinion of a dogs quality it does need to be shown at championship shows as the judges there giving CC's will at least have had to have judged the breed in numbers and shown some aptitude, at open show the judge could be knowledgeable or no absolutely nothing about your breed as Open shows are where the judges are learning,a nd often only the groups and BIS are judged by judges of CC level, and then they only need to give CC in one breed.  We do also get a smattering of well respected all rounders at Open shows, and some up and coming breed specialists in order to attract an entry.  If a show society scheduled nothing but learner judges it would hardly get an entry at all.

Yes Barbara, I totally agree with everything you've said in essence.

Yes, the only way for your dog to be seen is to enter shows with them. There are always knowledgeable breed people ringside (usually Breed Specialist judges), very often they're in the ring with you too, showing their own dogs.

Even though you will very often get some very encouraging remarks from them when you come away empty handed, and you may be in earshot of them making negative comments about the judging, it's still easier imo to come away with a placing when you're not being judged by one of them.

I was in the position a few months' ago, my puppy's first show. I chose the judge based on the fact that she had bred two litters and had been highly successful with the pups' she kept (using the same sire as my pup). I felt even though she didn't know me, she would like her type (strong family resemblance).

Well, when I got there, I found out it was her first judging assignment. Everyone else in the ring with me bar none was a breed specialist! Needless to say, we were thrown out! I had 2x such judges (and exhibitors) chatting to me ringside telling me not to lose heart & that my pup was lovely. They then proceeded to be very critical of the judging - face judging at it's worst I'd say.

Now to me, it's no good saying that the mentioned scenario was in any way fair. TBH, I'm finding it incredibly difficult to be noticed when confronted with a line-up of well known faces (and dogs) in my breed. I can't help but lose heart! Of course they could all be fantastic examples of the breed, and the judge might be completely impartial... wouldn't that be lovely!!

My pup isn't being shown at present, I'm taking a breather. She'll bounce back when she's matured somewhat & is in full coat. Her mother is going to take her place in the Autumn Open shows as she's looking fab at the minute. I've pretty much decided that I'm going to buy in a bitch puppy in a couple of years from lines I admire, and hopefully we might then have a winner!!

Coming from someone whose first real contender in the breed was born in my fourth generation (third home bred) it does, unless your lucky, take time to get that dog, with that bit extra who will rise to the top.  Sometimes your really lucky and buy or breed a real 'good un' right away.

Showign 3 generations of good typical bitches, who were just not good enough to reach the very top in the breed was in itself a great learning expereince.  My first had a champion litter brotehr and was a lot like him, but wasn't as good.

I can now look dispassionately at them, adn know that the results I had with them overall were right.  I do think had she not been exlipsed by ehr daughterr and in the curent climate when the numbers are less my RCC winning bitch may have done a bit more, her mother who rarely had a first in strong comeption at champ shwos may ahve won a few classes more, and my first girl who won ehr Stud Book Number may ahve doen a littel more too.

After shwoing two bitches that gained their champion titles I bred a bitch who I haven't shown at champ shwop level sicne she was a puppy.  If I was starting out I woudl be hapy enough to shwo her, but she is not nearly the quality fio what I ahve shwon since, so she makes up the numbers at the breed club Open show once a year, where in larger classes she manages to place around the middle.

I found out it was her first judging assignment.

This would have been at an Open show and it is common for everyone to rally round and support the novice first time judge who will feel a bit out of their depth, this will not and does not happen at a Championship show there a breed specialist will have had loads of hands on experience of judging dogs and will have owned and shown the breed themselves.

At an Open show the all round judge will have judging experience although not necessarily in the breed they are judging where as a Breed judge will at least have owned and shown the breed and have attended a breed seminar - however if the number of classes at an open show are three or less you could be judged by the postman who hates dogs and has little idea of what a dog should look like because if a breed has 3 or less classes anyone can judge it, there are a few breeds who have large numbers being shown when it is 5 classes rather than 3.

Breed specialists for me too I'm afraid - I find it so frustrating when  my breed is  just another notch on the judging ladder of all rounders who have  no real interest or insight into what makes the breed unique - I'd rather stay at home and save my money than give them an entry !.

Yvonne

I like to get tickets from both...shows type and construction without undue emphasis on certain parts of the standard over others.

All rounders are often literal in their interpretation of the standard like size, markings and movement.
Specialists often have their 'thing' and will ignore chunks of a standard to reward those closest to it - IMO of course!

Do think there are many judges who take on breeds other than those they own and they do it for a number of reasons, one hopes it is because they like the breed and have a true interest in its development and welfare. They will watch from the ringside, steward for the breed if they can and attend breed seminars and club shows. They may also feel that waiting for at least 18 months to judge their own breed is too long between appointments and that they will become ring rusty and so take on one or more 'other' breeds to keep their interest and their eye in, usually they will stick to the same group but then perhaps move to a different one if something takes their fancy.

Then you do get judges who are only interested in numbers and seem to aim for a full set in each group.

Perhaps we should have - Breed judges - Breed enthused judges and All Rounders. You can get good and bad in all types there are poor breed judges who make you wonder what on earth they are looking for and excellent all round judges who are quick, to the point an produce a final line up that makes it clear what they were looking for. Guess we should remember that because we do not agree with a judges choice it may not be because they are wrong it could just be they put more emphasis on different breed points than you do.

> Guess we should remember that because we do not agree with a judges choice it may not be because they are wrong it could just be they put more emphasis on different breed points than you do.

Quite agree, would consider a judge whose placings (given enough choice of dogs of course) make sense, in that you can see what they are looking or and rewarding/penalising (and it accords with the standard) then they are a good judge even if the placings may not be what you would do.

It's when your left scratching your head, even if you happen to have done well that makes you make a mental note to not bother with them again.

My favourite all rounders are those that judge my breed in a conssitent manner.  I ahve shown under a couple of judges with teh smae exhibit as a puppy, adult and then veteran and found the judging was to the same pattern each time.

I  have shown under a couple of judges with the same exhibit as a puppy, adult and then veteran and found the judging was to the same pattern each time.

Do agree but think the All Round type judges have an advantage with this as breed judges will notice the small changes within their breed from one appointment to the next and that causes them to latch on to that change in an effort to point it out to the breeders as not a good idea for the breed.  To some extent the All Rounder will accept the breed as it appears in front of them not concerning themselves with trends that take place in all breeds and those trends are not all ways for the good.

HOWEVER... for someone like myself who is relatively new to showing, I always feel my dog has been judged fairly by an all rounder, i.e. the dog judged not who is on the end of the lead.

I find it is the exact opposite, because the allrounders only know the faces they see in the dog papers or that show a lot. (That's why some people make sure to always be in their winners' adverts themselves, as opposed to the dog on its own -so they get seen.) They often -not always,. of course!- assume whatever the "faces" show has to be good, even if it isn't, where a breed specialist would look only at the dog. They'd more than likely know most of the exhibitors privately anyway.

I was one of those lucky people to buy in a really 'good un' for their first ever dog - and though he didn't get made up, he won a CC, got his ShCM, was just 3 points off his JW (and we only tried for 6 months instead of 12 as I'd never heard of the thing before that) and won his class at Crufts twice. I do feel that he would have been a worthy champion, but although we did have some shows where I felt (and was told by disinterested onlookers) that we were hard done by, the major reason he wasn't made up was the 2 utterly stunning and well deserving dogs that were virtually the same age as him, who swapped places for breed record holder constantly, who (deservedly) won nearly every CC going for 2 years. My boy was 2nd to one or other of them many times, so I can't complain, he outdid my wildest expectations as a newcomer, and I still miss him like mad every day. Yes occasionally there is 'facey' judging, but I honestly feel that the 'big names' have become that because they have bred the best dogs over time.

To be honest I think most judges besides having the best interest of dogs at heart are also self opinionated and would not dream of looking at faces or placing a dog because he won last week. But that is most, there are those who want to be judges but do not have the confidence in their own opinion and then I think they may be guilty if faced with a difficult decision to place the dogs they know or the one that was placed well last week but I think they are very much the minority and will one hopes gain confidence given time.

Then of course there are those who just get it wrong, their judging may be pants but they are honest they just have it wrong, well in my opinion but that is what I was saying.

dont show now but when I did I belived if you had the correct 'type' then breed specialist was the route, however if someone had a dog or bitch that perhaps didnt have the correct classic head ect then that person would be better going under an all rounder.

dont show now but when I did I belived if you had the correct 'type' then breed specialist was the route, however if someone had a dog or bitch that perhaps didnt have the correct classic head ect then that person would be better going under an all rounder.

Think you may well have been right, have a dog who is not a good example of the breed and I hardly ever showed him in a breed class but he loved showing and had great ring presence and won loads of groups and higher awards all from AVNSC. It was very much his attitude that did it I am convinced he was very outgoing and had the idea that he should not be over looked and he was not. Great fun but I always felt I was cheating.

Yes, I've found something similar - my older girl is very well made and moves beautifully, but her head is a bit plain or 'doggy', not exactly a good thing in our breed! She has improved with age and has had some BOB at open shows from breed specialists, but certainly when she was younger it was the all rounders who she did better under. Made it tricky to plan shows as Henry was a breed specialist's dog with his stunning head, but the all rounders often thought it was 'too much' head for them.

I have done a fair bit of showing this year, under both all rounders and Breed specialists, and we without a doubt done much better under breed specialists.
Next year i will be saving my pennies i'm affraid and will be just going under Breed specialists,unless it is a local champ show, as it feels like i am wasting my money.

Just adding on here

Does anyone on here actually judge and if you do and are given an AV class are you told which breeds are entered prior to you judging so you can look up the standards? Just wondering as there are some pretty obscure breeds out there and given the number of breeds it would be impossible to keep every standard in your head.

Do show societies keep a reference folder of standards for judges to refer to? Would the judge take the standard into the ring with them to have a quick look before judging or if an issue came up?
I've never seen a judge refer to anything in the ring and often wonder how they can keep all these different standards in their heads, especially in AV classes when there might be 10 different breeds. I teach and when I'm marking I'm comparing the student's work to a defined standard/marking scheme too but I have the written version in front of me - now after the first 5 or so I probably don't refer to that often but it is always there just in case. I would want some sort of crib sheet with the main points of the breed on it I think if I were judging :-)

Also how do you know who the breed specialists are? From the judging lists of the breed clubs or is there another way of knowing?

If anyone was being offered a chance at judging i believe they should have studied as many breeds standards as possible and the group that your breed falls under even more so. Id value the opinion of a breed specialist far more than an alrounder as they are just that breed specialists. BUT if someone was to judge on not what was at the end of the lead id find myself not going under them again. Some may favor the alrounder as they get higher placings, but i think this is due to them not knowing the specifics of the standard. Even though the dalmatian and bulldog are in the same group they differ enormously and they judge should at least know how the dog is supposed to move, the undesirable exaggeration in the breed and the desirable traits.

My friend once turned up to judge Cavaliers and got asked to do Papillons too as the judge hadn't turned up. She asked to borrow their standard (which I think the shows are required to have) and double checked it before she judged, though she did know pretty much what to do.

Also how do you know who the breed specialists are? From the judging lists of the breed clubs or is there another way of knowing?

Yes from your breed club.

It would be normal for a judge to be told the breeds entered under them and if not to ask. Yes every show will have a set of standards for the judge or anyone else to look at.

Have mine on my Kindle - very helpful if you are ringside judging as you can check why you don't agree with the judge and then discover where you are wrong :-)

> very helpful if you are ringside judging as you can check why you don't agree with the judge and then discover where you are wrong :-)

but what do you do when you discover you are right and the judge is wrong?

Nova how do you manage to get breed standards onto the Kindle?

Surely everyone interested in judging should study the standards as a matter of course.

I used to set quizzes for my canine club based on the breed standards. Many people thought that it was a fun way to learn them and I ended up learning most off by heart.

Nova how do you manage to get breed standards onto the Kindle?

Copy and past into a programme that you can use to make a PDF and then upload to your Kindel.

I ended up learning most off by heart.

But do you not think it requires more than just a knowledge of the words I like to think about what the words actually mean as many standards are ambiguous with many moderate and comparatively, you do need to think through the standard and compare it with what you know of the actual breed - must say I like to know what breeds I am to look at. I know some judges seem to be able to keep the details of dozens of breeds in their head have to admit I am not one of them and would always want to refresh my knowledge.

Some all rounders will also pick up things that they think are in the standard but aren't. I've sometimes found all rounders checking my dog for a white tail tip, which is something that a breed specialist would never look for as it's not a requirement.

but what do you do when you discover you are right and the judge is wrong?

LOL get another opinion from someone who will agree with me.

Some all rounders will also pick up things that they think are in the standard but aren't.

That is true and they even state the error in the critique things like correct almond eye when the standard asks for round and I remember an Elkhound report that said it was a shame the only dog present did not have the desired spectacle marking (not surprised there was only one there) that is the Keeshond.

> It would be normal for a judge to be told the breeds entered under them

I have never been told what breeds I have in av classes. Admittedly I have stuck to my own group & studied all breed standards within that group, before the appointment.

When judging varieties one cannot be expected to know all breeds intimately - but knowing their standards, coupled with an eye for construction, means you give a fair judgement.

Nothing looks worse than a 'highly undesirable' feature being rewarded. An unacceptable colour or badly mismarked individual may be well made, but will be a big no no to those in the know.

Learning essential features, sizes, weights and acceptable colours are vital.

Would agree that with AV classes you would not expect to be told but I think it is best to know what you are going to get in AVNSC because you are sending one of them to group or even BIS and it is important that you do your best by your entries and those judging after you.

> Would agree that with AV classes you would not expect to be told but I think it is best to know what you are going to get in AVNSC because you are sending one of them to group or even BIS and it is important that you do your best by your entries and those judging after you.

Never been told them either

Never been told them either

Well if you feel the need to know you can ask.

At the moment, for me it's irelevant, as I am not accepting appointments outside my breed but I only judge my group anyway, so personally, dont feel one should ask or be told..perhaps I'm too old school!!

perhaps I'm too old school!!

I don't think one can ever have too much information but it is a matter perhaps of personal confidence. Not sure what is old school about not asking for information or being told something that may be of help but then everyone has their own ideas.

It was AVNSC and AV Import register that I was thinking of really not AV generally as obviously anything could appear.
I know I would never be able to keep 5 or 6 different standards in my head far less 20 or more - unless I was judging every single week. I would want a picture with the main points indicated -:-D - good job I will never judge ;-) !

I find illustrated standards much more use because I think a lot of the points are subjective and I like things to be objective eg the heights between x and y - not 'as long as a bit of string' :-D

Could not agree more Dakkobear, am studying a standard at the moment and the head is required to be a 'fair length' does not say in relation to what, you need to be able view a number of quality dogs and then make your own notes but I would wish to check the standard and my notes before judging AVNSC otherwise you are, well I am, judging on balance and movement alone and not those special breed requirements.

I'm sure there are judges who can judge anything put before them but I am sure I would do a better job if I am well prepared.