hi dose any one have any advice on how to train my dog to keep her tail up when she is stacked. thanks

It might be worth mentioning the breed to get answers from the right folk.

Yep breed would help as I can't tell from the picture

oh sorry she a Dobermann

With them being undocked now I would have thought you would not be wanting the tail up????  Unless you like the wheel held over the back look?

I have a breed that is required to have a high tail-set and carry their tails tightly curled over the back, this is natural and the only training involved with carriage is to ensure the puppy is happy and confident in the show environment.

So jolly hockey sticks, being confident yourself and lots of silly talking and praise should have the pup happily standing gently wagging their tail while free standing.  If your going to present your dog 'stacked'  then they will need to feel happy with you holding them in place.  Do this gently for very brief periods at first, not going over board about the exactness of the stand.  Dobes are normally baited (tempted with a tidbit) when freestanding, and have their heads and tails held when stacked.

well this is what the kennel club says

Undocked: Appears to be a continuation of spine without material drop, kink or deformity. May be raised and carried freely when the dog is moving or standing.

i do bait yer and that works sometimes her tail being up isnt a problem when she is moveing it is always up it just getting her to hold it up when she is stacked. all the other dobies i have seen and competed agains always stand with there tails up 

We have tried all sorts to get our Bt girls tail to stay up when she is standing. clapping, waving a toy, very stinky treats, and talking daft in a silly voice. She has her tail up for about thirty seconds and it droops back down. Nothing we have tried has worked so far, and I agree that it can scupper your chances of that 1st place because it does take away from the whole look of an alert dog.
we are consistently being placed 2nd to a bitch who is very similar in type and shape, but she keeps her tail up constantly and gets the place.
I think she may be a little ring shy although she moves great and is very attentive. Am also looking for any ideas.
sorry not much help for the OP but you are not on your own.
She could also just be so relaxed in the enviroment that it doesn't matter to her to have her tail up.

A friend of mine shows Dobes and one of hers won't hold his tail up when stacked so she stands behind him and holds his tail up with one hand and places her other hand under his chin. You could try that as he won't free stand.

I haven't had too much to do with showing dobes since the docking ban, so are you all saying the exhibitors/judges actually prefer the tails up and over like a cartwheel rather than nicely down like on a Ridgeback or Greyhound? 

I assumed that breeders would be working to get them down looking more natural when standing and that they would be OK raised on the move, but not curled over the back. 

As I understood the standard is that the tails should go straight off the top-line, not up!  Though of course for some reason a high tail carriage seemed to be encouraged when they were docked, thus resulting in the curled over back tails.

>so are you all saying the exhibitors/judges actually prefer the tails up and over like a cartwheel rather than nicely down like on a Ridgeback or Greyhound? 

According to a recent feature in DW I'd say yes - all the dogs featured had tails that were curled (sometimes even more than a complete circle) and held high over the back.

This seems to be desirable ...

Would much rather see them have their tail carried like yoru breed.

To be honest that's what I thought they'd be aiming for too.

Last time I stewarded for Dobes the had their tail carried very like gundogs well the retrievers anyway sort of straight out the back but on moving they seemed all over the place some carried down and others over the back and all stops in between. At least the tail seems the correct sort of size and weight for the breed have seen some breeds where the tail does not seem to belong at all as if borrowed from another breed. (One does wonder if this is why they were docked in the first place or may be just my wicked thoughts)

right have change my avtar to a pic of her standing not sure if you will be able to see it or not think her tail just need to be a little higher i can get her to stand like this for 30 seconds and it slowly drops

That is very much as I saw the majority standing. The tail carriage has a lot to do with the tail set and the slope of the croup, a low set tail on a sloping croup will not be carried horizontal and would look wrong if it were, the tail should continue the line of the spine. In your photo it looks correct for your dog although the size of the avatar makes it difficult to be sure. Think you will have to support it or encourage it with whatever method she will respond to.

Support it in the line, it should be ok when being moved and free stood as you come to a stop, when you present to the judge just watch the tail and put a hand under it if it is about to drop. Watch the more experienced handlers I am sure they will not have dogs that hold the tail all the time as that is not natural so see what they do and do the same.

To me that looks nicer than the curled over tails, but then my breed has a tailset 'on or not much higher than the level of the back' so that's what I'm used to. :-)

To be honest I would say that the majority who have the tails up and over are actually incorrect as the standard does not ask for a high tail-set, so your girl to me is more correct, as long as she isn't goose rumped.

Quote KC standard:
Tail
Previously customarily docked.
Docked: Docked at 1st or 2nd joint. Appears to be a continuation of spine without material drop.
Undocked: Appears to be a continuation of spine without material drop, kink or deformity. May be raised and carried freely when the dog is moving or standing.

Note is says MAY be raised not should.  It became the norm to hold the docked tail up while stacking and exhibitors have continued to do so, but in both docked and undocked it says the tail appears to be a continuation of spine, so I would take that to means  smoothly off the back not up or down.

Most breeds with long tails and a croup that does not have an obvious steep slope have tails that are straight off the back and carried level with topline or a bit above on the move.  Thinking Ridgies, Dalmatian etc, so assume that is what breeders will be aiming for (hope so as those cartwheels look awful).

At the moment anything goes with tails until breeders start to actively select for them which will take some generations.

Might be worth looking at some Scandinavian doberman photos where the Docking ban came in some years sooner and see what the tails are now doing.

Thanks will try that at the next show in recent show have only up against dogs and bitches that are docked as there is not a lot or dobie classes up here and they seam to faviour the dogs even thought the run squint at back end.

> Most breeds with long tails and a croup that does not have an obvious steep slope have tails that are straight off the back and carried level with topline or a bit above on the move.  Thinking Ridgies, Dalmatian etc, so assume that is what breeders will be aiming for (hope so as those cartwheels look awful).

Unfortunately, the cartwheels seem to be the way things are going. I don't show, but have been to a fair few shows as an observer, and the majority are fairly tightly curled. Some are quite chunky tails, others like whips. I couldn't agree more that the Dalmatian-type tail carriage would look so much nicer, but I really don't think it will happen sadly.

Regardless of what is desired or not, holding the tail up can be clicker trained and this is probably the easiest way to do it. (I do show a breed where tail has to be up. Gets confusing at times as my other breed must have it down!) You just click and reward when tail is up, then eventually put in a command for it -just don't pick an obvious command (such as "tail") so the judge cottons on to the fact that the tail is a problem.

The question though is, how is the tail held at home when the dog is relaxed and happy? If it is up then, not having it up at shows obviously indicates the dog isn't feeling entirely happy so increasing general confidence in the ring will help.

> they seam to faviour the dogs even thought the run squint at back end.

OK I've tried - but I just can't understand what this sentence means :)  Can you please have another go?

Also, have you talked to your breeder?  He/she ought to be willing to help and presumably they have some background in the breed and can advise you about the direction breeders and handlers are taking over the tails (pardon the pun).  I wonder what they were hoping for with regards to tail set with this mating?

It's an interesting topic for those breeds where tails were previously docked. My breed only had a small amount docked so we're not seeing the impact that breeds such as yours are experiencing.  The tail positions shown in photographs in the dog press have been quite varied since the ban

I think the Dobes are pretty much the same as Giant Schnauzers, [both having been docked Germans in the past] some hold their tail naturally [like my new boy] and the ones that don't, seem to have their tail held up by the handler [like mentioned before]
Hanging tail will make her look droopy, whereas holding the tail up will give ger the square look judges want ;)

I have a friend in Dobe's and have watched some classes of late and those dogs which don't hold their own tails up are held up by the handler, this is very very common now in the breed it seems. The head and tail held at the same time.

> this is very very common now in the breed it seems. The head and tail held at the same time.

but that is how a lot of them were stacked when docked (we had a lot of dobes at the ringcraft I used to go to), so it seems the handlers just feel the need to top and tail from habit more than anything.

http://www.thedobermannclub.co.uk/champshow2011.html

The photos of the winning dogs are at the bottom of this link, have a look to see how they are stacked, should give you some more pointers, good luck

Top winners tend to have the 'Cumberland sausage' effect these days.

http://www.amazondobes.com/boss.html

http://www.amazondobes.com/Escada%20home%20page.htm

sorry dogs a babe thats my scottish comeing throught in my writing right the  sentence they seam to prefer dogs to bitches even thought some dogs i have been against dont run straight at there back legs.

i cant talk to the breeders as they are amateurs like myself they are just people that had a litter of pups with there bitch to keep the line going we never bought her to show  just as a pet we didnt get her til she was 7 months old and she came with a lot of problems. it wasnt until i showed her at a local show and the judge asked if i was going to keep showing her and she gets a lot of comments from people at other show since then .

Just met on our evening walk a 12 months old male with a, to me, pleasing tail carriage just like your bitch bred by someone near me who shows quite successfully, so it does seem anything goes at the moment re tails.

The photos of the winning dogs are at the bottom of this link, have a look to see how they are stacked, should give you some more pointers, good luck

Well not only is that tail carriage horrid it is contrary to the standard - suppose this sort of thing is bound to happen but is not pleasant to view. They look much better with the tail carried HPR style with the tail continuing the line of the spine, the spitz style looks ridicules and robs the breed of it's dignity.

I interpret the standard as calling for something like this. Much more elegant and dignified. And that one qualified for Crufts before the docking ban, as I understand it.

Agree JG the 'curl over back' can never be said to be the continuation of the spine, the mind boggles, since when did we have circular spines.

That last one looks far more in keeping with the dog. The tail itself is a bit more substantial which looks better than the skinny curled ones. I do hope they see sense and read the standard properly.

yes i like the tails like that not like cumberland sausages as some said

It will of course take many generations to get them all like that, and only if the breeders decide that is what they are aiming for, I do hope so, as that last pic is attractive in my eyes, nice and Cobby, the tail does not make the dog look long, moderate bone etc.

Oh that's a much nicer tail JG. :-)

I think the pic JG posted is an Aritaur Dobe.

If you look at the males/females pages on their website the tails on their undocked dogs are nothing like those tighly coiled ones that other breeders seem to be going for.

And don't they look so much nicer!

To be fair no breeder has yet been in a position to actively make breeding decisions taking tail type and carriage into account as we are only in the first and second generation of undocked dogs.  I would think that only now are any of the undocked dogs being used for breeding so that tails may be taken into account along with other features.

I don't know though if there is any consensus on what kind of tails will be considered ideal, probably those a given breeder has LOL ;) if they have successful dogs the tails they happen to have will be the ones passed on.

> I don't know though if there is any consensus on what kind of tails will be considered ideal, probably those a given breeder has LOL ;-) if they have successful dogs the tails they happen to have will be the ones passed on.

That's a valid point.... there is more to a dog than just its tail, and if judges were placing dogs with the type of tail they would like to see in future generations, above other considerations - that would be wrong, IMHO.

What are the tails like on the dogs in Scandinavian countries where docking has been banned for longer?

Pretty varied it woudl seem.
Swedish show winners: http://www.dobermann-review.com/show/2011/06-12_Swedish_Dobermann_Winner_2011/index.php

Less like cumberland sausages here in this Norwegian kennel: http://www.alphanordic.net/
Finland: http://www.kriegerhof-dobermanns.com/

As you say Barbara a varied selection none of which do anything for the dogs they are attached to, they somehow seem so unsuitable and almost as if they are stuck on and not belonging to the dog at all. If they were thicker set and more business like they would look as if they were of some use but as it is they look like a collection of milk jugs reminiscent of the Jersey cow ones. I had often wondered why they were a docked breed now I think I understand it would be all too easy to grab hold of the dogs tail whilst it was trying to work.

I think the coiled look will become the norm, it already is around the showring in the UK. The other examples given, show many examples in Europe already striving for this, either by their natural construction or by the handlers trying to achieve this coiled shape by manipulation.

Give that almost all the top winners here seem to be coiled, this is likely to become the desired look.

I think the coiled look will become the norm

Think you may well be right but if you are the standard will need re-writing. It is a shame if the breeders are unable to breed for something more suitable as I think in the end it will decrease the interest in the breed it is so unsuitable for a breed that is supposed to be elegant, of proud carriage and capable of great speed.