Now that the Kc is encouraging the general  public to come along to shows with their dogs will this mean  that exhibitors will no longer have to pay for their own 'not for competition' dogs and will they  be able to also bring along their  underage pups to sit by the ringside too ? ....or will show committees charge for the public's dogs and impose the same age restrictions as they do for their exhibitors ?

Yvonne

As I went in to Darlington a guy with a lurcher was having a discussion with the gate people  - he could not understand how, as it was a "DOG SHOW" he could enter free, but would have to pay £12 for his dog!  He kept saying he only wanted to look round, not show his dog.  HE asked what he got for his £12 and was told "nothing".  One of the committee on the gate told him that everyone showing dogs had paid over £20 for each dog,   would still probably get nothing :)

Ahh - well that answers my first question ! - are all champ shows charging ?

Yvonne

How do they actually police it anyway? I've been to some breed shows with a dog that I don't show, and at the first one entered NFC and paid a £2 fee. The next couple of times I just showed up on the day without paying the fee. Unless people have to book in I can't see how they know who is and who isn't entered NFC, especially at large shows when there are hundreds of dogs about. I'm not that up on showing so maybe I'm just showing my ignorance, but are there any checks made?

The only shows that are 'policed' & I use the term loosley, are the ones with passes(General champs & some ag shows).
Some simply have to take dogs with them occasionally & personally I think that it's better to let a dog into the show, than being shut up in a car in hot weather. It's not something I do, as I pay someone to look after my unentered dogs at home.
The other side of the coin is we all sign the entry form, to say our dogs are free of infectious disease...how can 'joe public', who dont sign an entry form commit to this & can they be trusted??

The worry is that with more and more dogs showing up that are not entered and are just paid for on the day it brings more risk of seasonal dog illnesses or even dog aggressive dogs.

On the flip side it does, as already said keeps dogs out of hot cars.

I think you have a good point about dogs in hot cars.
I live near Clarks Shopping Village and until this summer, dogs were not allowed there but could walk round the adjacent half of the open air mall no probs.
Now they are allowed all over - not in the shops themselves though - but I think that's a direct response to out of town shoppers who come out for the day nd bring their dogs, not knowing they were banned from the shopping area, but quite obviously would go home rather than leave them in hot cars.

> The worry is that with more and more dogs showing up that are not entered and are just paid for on the day it brings more risk of seasonal dog illnesses or even dog aggressive dogs.

Why would "un-entered" dogs pose more of a risk of infection or aggression than those that enter NFC or just turn up on the day?

I suppose because 'public' dogs might have been exposed to disease within the past 3 weeks and the owners not know about the regulations, and are less likely to have been trained to cope with crowds of strange people and dogs.

I do not think the general public should be allowed to bring their dogs in the show.

I don't think they should be allowed to bring them in either.  Would like to be able to take younger dogs into a show though so that we can socialise them.

> I do not think the general public should be allowed to bring their dogs in the show.

Ditto.

Why would "un-entered" dogs pose more of a risk of infection or aggression than those that enter NFC or just turn up on the day?

As has already been said joe public's dog may not be used to big crowds or other dogs. I moved out of the city because of joe publics' dogs being aggressive  towards my dogs. I can understand the worry of them being at a shows.

Also again as already been said it increases the likely hood that a dog has been exposed to a doggy illness before the show.

As an aside to what has already been said and I would say I agree that JP's dogs should not be allowed onto the show ground. Mainly because they don't know the etiquette that we as exhibitors expect from one another and have seen them standing ringside with their less than dog friendly animals half in the ring and actually having a go at a dog trying to do a triangle in the ring when it had to run up towards them. And don't get me onto children who are allowed to sit by the ropes and have tossed shoes, balls, balloons and toys into the ring as people are moving their dogs. I say ban 'em all!!! ;-)

except.........don't we want to encourage new people into our hobby ? - personally i have no problem with the GP coming along to watch - I'm proud of my dogs and love my hobby and I'd welcome the general public showing an interest in  beautiful, healthy, good natured show  dogs !!!!    - my query is whether exhibitors own 'not for competition' dogs would be allowed in on the same basis as the general public's - I'd love  the chance to socialise my 5 month pup around the ringside before he dips his paw in the showing water ! .

I really don't think there's  a health risk here just perhaps an issue of fairness .

Yvonne

I'm happy for them to watch, but most of them as others have said won't know how to control their dogs around large numbers of other dogs, and the dogs won't have learned to leave other dogs alone, a big mass of dogs will just be a sign for a free-for-all rough and tumble or something!

but surely we could educate people when they are at a show, say to people why their dog should not disturb a dog in the ring, why we do what we do,you never know these people some of them could be the future and if we are to be seen to be snobbish or off putting about our hobby new blood will not come into our sport , and not all people who are just the general public are stupid about what they do with their dogs, and some people who even show themselves should be taught some manners when in and out of the ring.
You talk about the gp like they should not be allowed as they have out of control dogs, how many times have any one walked passed benches and the dogs have flown off the bench to have a go at you walking by, and the  owners are know where to be seen for hours, what about all the tannoy messages that are put out at champ shows etc about dogs being left in cars,but the ordinary dog person brings his dog into the show as they don't want to leave their precious pet behind in the heat of the car and then they hear tannoy messages asking for a person to go back to their car as their dogs are in distress so who is the better owner hear

I witnessed an incident with a public dog at Driffield on Sunday. There was a guy with a Staffie who was standing in the food line when his dog slipped it's colar and actually went for a passing Frenchi the owner of the Frenchie managed to sccop it up very quickly or it would have been bitten or possible worse!! The owner of the Staffie just put the lead back on and did not even apologize to the exhibitor, if I had been the exhibitor I would have made sure this was reported to the show management, I wonder if it was?? Hence this is just one incident I have witnessed and would not like anything like this to happen on a regular basis. I know something similar could happen at anytime even with a show dog but I would expect the owner to be more understanding and apologize!!

I never could understand why the KC is happy to allow any dog of any age owned by the public to enter into a show venue but an exhibitor can't bring in a dog unless it is over 6 months and is entered NFC.

Also speaking as someone associated with running a group open show it seems unfair that we have to man every door or gate if we wish to charge and check the dog is fit and not aggressive, it is hard enough finding enough people to run the show and steward the rings all day for nothing without expecting them to sit at a door all day.

can i ask how you would test a dog for aggression ?

If you are standing talking to a dog handler and the dog is lunging at everything that passes - it's aggressive, well not suitable to be let into a situation that it, nor it's owner is used to dealing with. Of course you can't tell if a dog will suddenly lose it and lash out but you can tell if a dog is undisciplined around other dogs or likely to be a danger to other dogs or people and it is the show managements responsibility to avoid situations where someone or a dog may be hurt.

I noticed that the Darlington show was advertising a 'how to show your dog' demonstration to the public who had brought their 'public' dogs - I wonder if this relaxation of the rules is to encourage more Joe Public to try dog showing for themselves and increase their entries in the future?

If you are standing talking to a dog handler and the dog is lunging at everything that passes - it's aggressive

I agree, but there was a breed in the ring next to ours who all seemed to be squaring up to each other, even in the ring and woe betide if you walked past their crates with a dog.  Is feisty behaviour more tolerated in certain breeds and therefore not classed as aggression?

Do not think dogs should be sparked off one another but there is a difference between those who are showing dogs and members of the GP - owners and handlers of show dog know that if their dog bites it and it's offspring will be banned members of the GP have no such concerns.

I have no real issue with members of the public taking a pet dog to a show but think it most unfair if exhibitors have to pay more for their nfc dogs than entrance fee for pet dog.

This was the case at East of England ,at Darlington the public did at least have to pay £12.

Silly me! Just realised that at EofE public had to pay for entry wheras at city of Birmingham entry was free

I think i would be concerned for my dogs if the GP had access to shows. My partner comes with me and watches the other dog while im in the ring or nip to the toilet, there are times when i do have to go to show on my own and would be worried about leaving the dogs, i think it would eventually attract some dodgy folk. If the GP are allowed with or without dogs then they should be given a pass on the gate/door. My dogs were not checked when leaving Driffield on Saturday.

I agree with others that the public wont understand the etiquette and like Crufts the public often fuss and poke the dogs without asking, i do get cross...lol.

Our dogs weren't checked upon leaving Driffield either this year, there were enough staff members about, so don't know what happened there? Maybe they were caught up with the amount of people leaving their dogs in cars and vans without suitable ventilation :-(

Weweren't checked entering either!

I dunno..there were two men on the gate and looked like they were tanning themselves in the sunshine? :/

Not checked at Driffield either, two guys on the gate eating sarnies and drinking coffee, just looked at me, no attempt to stop and ask for pass out.

We were checked leaving the show at Driffield.

They must have changed shifts from when I left - we were just waved on through!

We weren't checked going out at Driffield, unlike Darlington where we were overchecked! I'd prefer to be overchecked - how can any show expect dogs to remain benched when not in the ring when they don't check them in and out of the show.

Additional thought re. public dogs v show etiquette - the subject of in season bitches - probably not too often, but guaranteed this will be an occasional factor if the GP bring in their dogs willy nilly.  

do you mean they are more likely to bring in season bitches or that their dogs will react to the in season bitches at shows?

There is no rule to prevent the showing of in season bitches at conformation shows, and though frowned on by many it seems to be quite common among some breeds (some quite surprisingly large and dog dominant ones even), so at any given show where there are thousands of dogs there will be some bitches in season, also some on the verge of coming in, some at the end but still interesting for which the owners cannot be blamed.

Interestingly when talking to US exhibitor contacts it seems that a bitch in season is seen as no reason not to show???

>Interestingly when talking to US exhibitor contacts it seems that a bitch in season is seen as no reason not to show???

I can't say that surprises me; the overall impression given by the US is that winning is everything and sportsmanship is irrelevant.

I think it is probably more to do with the fact that there is no benching so all the dogs are in crates or in ex pens, so ti's probably easier to keep the bitch away until her time in the ring, so being in season isn't seen as much of an issue. 

Timings at shows are pretty strict so you know when your due in to the nearest few minutes.  Distances travelled are often huge with a trip to a show involving a weekend away from home and several shows at the same venue. 

We have 3-4 days show just to get all the dogs shown, they will have 3-4 separate shows to attend over a weekend and might then not show again until the next cluster.  So if you don't go to a show your not only losing entry fees but the cost of accommodation too.

Ordinary exhibitors (as opposed to well heeeled people employign handlers), often will only do up to a half dozen of these weekends a year, taking in as many shows over that time as we do over our season/years showing.