Hi
I'm in a bit of bad way after today but here goes

I had my 1 yr old girl hip and elbowed scored today and after taking advice from others also has a spine and chest xray to be sure to be sure etc - wanting to be conscientious and thorough

She has an enlarged heart with a VHS of 11.5, the vet has said it is the first part of DCM it has reduced space on one lung, and she does cough after exertion.

The vet needs a benchmark or parameter to gauge decline so has asked if we can re xray in a few months to ascertain what is what. I am wanting instead referral to a specialist?

In herself she is glossy, healthy and sumptious, it seems mad to think she has something so badly wrong.
I am just wondering if anyone else can offer any glimpses into what the future might hold.

We have been told not to over exert her, no swimming, no long walks just short intervals of medium activity and to feed a low salt diet (she is raw fed 80%)

I am still reeling obviously, words can not express how soft and sweet and how much I love this girl :(
TIA

Depending on breed as well but yes if your own vet isn't specialising in cardiology
you want one that specialises in cardiology. There are various vets in vet uni's and
referral centres around the country.

They will perform various tests

Troponin blood test which can detect damage to the heart muscle.
Your own vet can send these off if I remember correctly they go off to the Glasgow vet school
but other labs may now have this test.

Holter monitor, again your own vet or specialis can affix this to your dog - the machine is normally sent down from
Scotland, very good service and readings come back quickly again your dog can be wired up for 24-48 hours.
This will detect how many abnormal beats etc. You keep a diary of what your dog does, and if any symptoms etc.
Your dog has to keep the monitor on (electrodes fix to dog's skin and also helped with skin glue too), then dog gets
to wear a t-shirt to try and protect the holtor wires.

Cardiologists can also do ECG and ultrasound.

Here's a page we have on our Breed Council's website
http://www.boxerbreedcouncil.co.uk/cm.htm
Also click on the articles letters from breeders, veterinary and other reports on BCM and vet papers on BCM

There are various products that they also think to have a protective effect on the heart (fish oils)
two products from vets are cardiguard and Gomega which may be of benefit.

Also do get blood test for hypothyroidism as this undiagnosed can cause enlargement of heart.

this seminar may be off interest to you ::
still places available for the DCM seminar by Joanne Dukes McEwan to be held on Saturday 24th September at Middlewich Community Centre. Starting at 12.30 with a buffet lunch followed by the seminar and a questions and answers session
The cost is £15 and tickets are available from Sharon Pinkerton This is an excellent opportunity to find out more about this heart condition by one of the experts in the UK - this is not a GWP seminar it it open to everyone from other breeds.

Sharon Pinkerton

If you can get to that seminar it would be well worth it - Jo is fantastic when it comes to DCM, she is Soli's cardiologist and has been brilliant all the way through (Soli is 14 months post diagnosis now).

I would certainly get a referral as well - DCM is a serious disease and I would want a specialist diagnosing/treating it (no offense to your vet but it is a specialist thing).  Jo works at Liverpool Uni but there are specialists all over.

So sorry to read this Frogs, terrible news to be given.

If it weren't for your thoroughness you would never have known until your girl became ill or collapsed, I know it probably feels like the worst thing right now but it is a blessing that you have found this early. I have no advice to give, just hope that you will both find the best way forward. {{{hug}}}

http://www.bsava.org.uk/vcs

Is the veterinary cardiologists website so you may find a specialist near you

def go for specialist.  years ago I had a dog with Cardiomyopathy, he attened the dick vet in edinburgh and the treatment was first class.

Thank you all, I have asked for her to be referred to Michael Martin in Kenilworth. I had a scout around and he seems to be one of the best.
I am trying to keep a positive outlook in the belief that knowledge will help and at least I will know what we are dealing with.
There is already slight pressure on her trachea which causes a cough after a sudden burst of activity (being 12 mths old there are a few of these in every day)

Desperately trying to find a way to get to that conference but childcare is an issue as hubby is overseas :(

Thank you for your responses

Mike Martin is LOVELY :) Very nice cardiologist and lovely with the dogs.
Been there once with one of mine.

If you are there for all tests etc you normally lveave your dog with them for the day.
I left my car in their car park as it was uneconomical to go home and back to Warwickshire from Berkshire.
There is a local waitrose near to the referral centre and the town at the time was full of charity shops and others.
Plus walked my other dog at the time in a big nearby park.

http://www.martinreferrals.com/

Good Luck and all the best

Thank you, I think I will take my other girl and find some nice spaces to walk her, to take my mind off it all...
Thank you for the info

Hi, thought I should supply an update so that if anyone has a similar issue they might be able to check it is not always doom and gloom :)

Well we had the appointment with Martin Referrals Services and the scans etc of the heart were done.
They detected a murmur as well which my own vet had not heard despite checking for.
this they found was down to a very very mild aortic stenosis, he said it will not worsen or have any impact on her and I am essentially to not worry about it one jot.
And the large heart?
Well some large hearts are big healthy well functioning hearts and some are poor functioing.
My girls heart is functioning superbly, very strong and healthy, indicative of a very fit hound :)
It precludes ever breeding from her (he did say it all depends on how responsible you want to be but I am no way prepared ever to take risks with puppies health like that) but she is fit and healthy and can enjoy life again and I can relax :)

WE did go and walk our other dog along the castle and Abbey Hill which was gorgeous.
Wonderful people and staff, so am very happy indeed and would not hesitate to recommend them.

I'm a little confused, if her heart is normal (and assuming the murmer is no more than a grade 1), but just larger than some (I am sure hearts like other body parts vary from one animal to another) then why would this preclude breeding from her?

Because it is aortic stenosis, which is autosomal dominant, meaning she could and prob would pass it on with no guarantee her offspring would be as mild as her with it.

good explanation here

http://www.akcchf.org/canine-health/your-dogs-health/disease-information/aortic-stenosis.html

OK, was really concentrating on the heart size.

Funnily enough the large heart has nothing to do with the aortic stenosis... Just a coincidence.
But my vet could not detect the murmur so had the heart not been so athletic and large, I'd never have been to the cardiologist, she would have passed her health checks (hips and elbows assumed) and I could well have bred her and some heart issues alongside in innocence.

And cardiac checks are not even standard within the breed, so I am glad I did find out, sad as it is...

but is this not the same problem that is tested for in boxers and a murmer graded 1 would be suitable for breeding? .

I am not sure what heart issues are checked for with boxers but a quick google says boxer cardiomyopathy?

I was xraying with a view to checking for DCM as I was alerted a relative of my girls might have DCM, so I thought I would check her out seeing as she was being hip scored anyway.

Aortic stenosis is different again I think and the advice is not to breed from affected dogs and to carefully screen siblings if they are to be used.

But I am prepared to be told different :)

Surely in a breed WITHOUT heart issues it never makes sense to breed from a grade 1. Be different if many were affected and you had to pick the best of a bad lot. Why risk it?

I was just being theoretical as I have no idea of the breed involved here.

Me neither but as Frogs said heart checks are not the norm in the breed I assumed it's not a breed with known heart problems.

See here for Boxer AS (Aortic Stenosis) http://www.boxerbreedcouncil.co.uk/as.htm

The reason for allowing grade 1's to be included for breeding was that as a breed we had a widespread problem
with aortic stenosis and to discount grade 1's may have seriously reduced the breeding gene pool.

My own experiences a grade 1 murmer doesn't affect the dogs longevity, grade 1 parents can produce grade 0
offspring - I have one from a dam who was a grade 1 and her daughter was a grade 0.

Obviously if your breed doesn't have a widespread problem with aortic stenosis then it is better only to use
grade 0 parents. If it does have a problem then it's sensible to try and keep the gene pool as wide as possible
whilst trying to reduce the incidence of AS within a breed.

Some hounds do have different heart sizes to that say of a Boxer.
Some hound breeds are built for speed (Whippet, greyhound, Saluki etc) and thus their hearts may well be bigger and have a different beats per minute average than that of a breed that isn't required for speed.
Look at the race horse Secretariat, on PM his heart was found to be significantly larger than most racehorses/Thoroughbreds.
It was determined that he had inherited this from a female line in his pedigree.
This was a horse that could run and at speed too, the other top racehorse at the time was also found to have a larger heart than
most 'average' thoroughbreds. But not as large as Secretariats.
So what I am trying to say is that over a number of years where people were selecting their dogs based on speed and working ability
they may have also unknowingly been selecting for larger hearts. As I'm sure that if top racers were PM'd their hearts would be larger
than average.

More breeds are starting to test hearts other breeds now testing are Newfie's, GSP's, Frenchie's and I am aware that some
people in whippets are beginning to get their's checked. All of these are being tested for Aortic Stenosis.

An Phar Lap the great racehorse too. Massive heart.
Oh breed, sorry Rhodesian Ridgeback, I meant to say earlier.

I have 2 RR's and this younger one is more like a greyhound, she runs and runs and runs, it is what she loves. She is a pure athlete.
And she is the sweetest nature, I could easily describe her as big hearted, for that is her personality too.

I think you are being VERY responsible and commend you. I am amazed that some on here seem to be saying that it could be okay to breed from her. Stick to your principles and well done.

Depending on breed and whether heart murmurs are prevalent, breeding from a very slight murmur (grade 1) is acceptable otherwise the gene pool would be reduced too much.

In most breeds hearts aren't even checked specifically for hearts (beyond the usual vet health checks) as it isn't seen as a breed issue, so for all we know slight murmurs may in fact be fairly common place and not affecting the breeds health so anyone would notice. The OP's vet did not pick up on this low grade murmur, but picked up on something that turned out not to be an issue at all.  Had they not done so then as far as the OP was concerned her bitch had just passed her health testing with flying colours. The original poster has been particularly conscientious and done testing beyond the norm I believe.

It's a little like acceptable hip scores.  In some breeds if dogs with only scores under 10 were considered acceptable then there would be no breeding stock at all, in other breeds the majority of dogs score that or better so the bar can be higher in selection.

I think murmurs are not the issue themselves but more the actual cause of it. In my girls case the aortic stenosis, in a mild form it is benign but in a moderate to severe aortic stenosis, you have things like fainting and sudden death to watch out for.
Inheritability is taking chances and I'm not prepared to take chances it is as simple as that. The breed itself does not need to breed in that way, there are so many healthy dogs about.
And yes I was being conscientious because I know the heart break that can occur with ill dogs...

This has been a really interesting discussion though :0)

Yes it has, it does rather show that far more often things are grey rather than black and white.

As others have pointed out if depends on the breed.
Our breeding reccomendations for the Boxer breed were agreed by the top cardiologists in the UK
and a mamillian genetics expert (who also happens to breed Boxers) along with the breed council.

In an effort to reduce the incidence and severity of Aortic stenosis within the breed without decimating
the breeding population so much that the gene pool becomes too narrow (in our breed it's quite narrow as it is).

It's been proven in Boxers that this approach has worked and significantly reduced the number of Boxers
being seen by vets with aortic stenosis in the cardiologist referral centres/vet uni's.
The data from all the Boxer dogs tested under the scheme also backs up that there is a reduction in
the higher grades. This info has been published in the earlier years and also our breed council is still collating
the information.