I was under the impression it was illegal to ferry friends around for petrol money....but I cant find anything on the net to prove this...am I right?

Never thought it against the law to pay your share of the expenses, in fact I think car sharing is encouraged and why not.

Scenario: Offering your services as a taxi home late at night when you've finished drinking to make some money. Probably be cheaper than taxi drivers.

If you're only insured SDP then it will invalidate your insurance.

Sorry JG, whats SDP?

Social, Domestic and Pleasure (which sometimes even excludes commuting to work!); if you want to take money for lifts then you'd need to change your insurance to reflect that.

If it is just for petrol money ie non profit I don't think it would be illegal.  As someone pointed out car sharing is encouraged.
Profit can't be made but you can add a bit on for depreciation over and above the petrol money according to this
http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/Road_Traffic_Law/Car_Insurance_Law

Taken from the DirectGov website:

Insurance and car sharing

The Association of British Insurers says that car sharing won't affect the insurance of their members as long as:
*the vehicle seats no more than eight passengers
*a profit isn't made from any payment by passengers

However, if you have any concerns, you should check with your insurance company, as terms and conditions may vary between insurance providers.

Car sharing

and another on car sharing

So really then someone could give lifts to friends and charge them more than the petrol used because how could the police or insurance know this? Everyone involved would just say the driver was taking everyone home out of kindness?

> Everyone involved would just say the driver was taking everyone home out of kindness?

Yep - if you trust your 'friends' :) :) :)

> So really then someone could give lifts to friends

Just depends exactly what you mean :) If you are just giving lifts to your friends who you are out with for the evening or they happen to be in the same pub, then that is probably fine. However, if you drive up to your local pub on a regular basis, wait outside and then offer a lift to those who are coming out (or have previously arranged that you will be outside), so, effectively acting as a taxi - then that wouldn't be OK, IMO :)

Think if you look at it from a common sense type of view providing you are not advertising your self as a taxi or private car hire, you are not carrying people you don't know, you only take expenses which could include petrol, wear and tear, refreshments for you the driver and even possibly a night away from home or a loss of earnings. then I think you are within the law providing you do not invalidate your insurance. If you have no valid insurance to transport friends and family for expenses you are not insured and if stopped the police could take your car and send you and your passengers home by public transport and on foot.

So, yes, IMO it is not a problem providing you have it in writing from your insurance company that they are happy for you to do this, look at the policy first as it may make it clear in that document.

Don't lie or ask your passengers to do so, make sure you are within the law and then enjoy your passengers company whilst you do them a favour.

> if stopped the police could take your car and send you and your passengers home by public transport and on foot.

In certain circumstances, I would have thought that you would be liable to prosecution for being an unlicensed taxi too :( The whole essence of car-sharing is that you are making the journey anyway  - whether it is to/from work or home from the pub. Car-sharing isn't making journeys purely for the purpose of giving others lifts on a regular basis :)

Are you saying that this person is working as an unlicensed cabbie? In which case they would need to charge over the price of petrol and be making a profit, also a considerable profit which probably wouldn't cover picking and dropping off friends from evenings out, unless every day with large numbers.

Far safer to be picked up and collected by someone you know.

If you think he is making a good living doing this and dodging tax I guess the tax office is the place to complain, but can't see much harm in what he is doing and can't see him making much of a profit anyway. It is not illegal unless an undeclared business. :-)

> but can't see much harm in what he is doing and can't see him making much of a profit anyway. It is not illegal unless an undeclared business.

There is harm tho' - if he was involved in an accident and his passengers were injured, his insurers (if finding out what he was doing) may invalidate the insurance and not pay out :(

Car-sharing isn't making journeys purely for the purpose of giving others lifts on a regular basis :-)

So taking adult children to collage or for nights out is acting as an unlicensed taxi, unpaid may be but that argument does not hold water, I have asked a neighbour to run me to hospital and to an airport I pay expenses and perhaps a small gift but to suggest they are breaking the law, well I am sorry but I do not think they are.

And what about the 'school run' often done on a sharing system.

>So taking adult children to collage or for nights out is acting as an unlicensed taxi, unpaid may be but that argument does not hold water,

If you check your insurance policy (and your driving licence) you'll find that giving lifts for money can invalidate your insurance, so that if you were involved in an accident and you, your pasengers or a third party were injured you'd be personally liable for the damage - your insurance wouldn't cover it. You really need to check what your insurance policy covers - as I say, some SDP policies (the most usual type of cover) doesn't always cover travel to and from work.

Policy information. As you see, commuting isn't the same as bog-standard SDP.

This site goes further; it says under "Use": All these cover types exclude the use of the car for racing, competitions and rallies and for carrying passengers for hire or reward. However, taking money from passengers in return for a lift (known as car sharing) is allowed, as long as the lift is not part of a business arrangement.

> So taking adult children to collage or for nights out is acting as an unlicensed taxi, unpaid may be but that argument does not hold water

That is family - so different :) We're talking about friends and for payment. How much the payment is is another matter too :) HMRC allow (or used to) companies to pay 40p per mile to employees to cover mileage in cars. Now if this pub is, say, 2 miles from home - so the total journey to drop a few friends off is, say, 6 miles - that is £2.40. If there are three friends paying £1 each, then not a lot of 'profit' is being made. So it just depends how much is being paid and how often this takes place.

> And what about the 'school run' often done on a sharing system

I've done school runs but there has never been any money involved :)

I think we may have went too far :-) Most policies are SDP, social, domestic and pleasure, with or without commuting to your place of work. I would think Domestic would include school runs, taking kids to places. Social covers giving your friends a lift home and pleasure to the airport :-)

>Social covers giving your friends a lift home and pleasure to the airport :-)

But not necessarily for payment. :-)

There is harm tho' - if he was involved in an accident and his passengers were injured, his insurers (if finding out what he was doing) may invalidate the insurance and not pay out

I can't see that it would even come up, if an accident unfortunately did happen, it would be nothing more than a group of friends in a car being collected by said driver friend from a night out, I doubt that anyone would ever ask, as it is not illegal to ask for payment towards petrol, people have a choice to do that or not, "did your friends pay towards the lift?" It's not a normal question, but even if they did, it would have to be proven that he had been and was acting as an unlicensed cabbie.

Even if the drivers fault and the passengers wished to sue for injures it would not be in their interest to say such a thing as the insurance as you say would become invalid.

Tracy would need to have real proof that he was earning a living from this, or quite rightly be concerned if she feels him unsafe or his car for ferrying people around.

> But not necessarily for payment

There's payment and payment :) Giving someone the cost of the fuel is one thing (there is no profit element), paying a mileage charge, for example, is another :) Giving friends a lift to the airport twice a year in return for the fuel is totally different from Joe Bloggs in the village who will take all his friends/neighbours to the airport making 30 trips a year (or more) :) :) None of these things are exact, it is why it is being done and is any money made from it :)

But who is talking about payment - I understood this was for expenses. And yes, do check your insurance and then I think in law you have nothing to worry about. Giving a lift to friends or neighbours is 'social' and why should you not accept help towards the expenses you are not making profit but simply accepting help with costs.

> Even if the drivers fault and the passengers wished to sue for injures it would not be in their interest to say such a thing as the insurance as you say would become invalid

Maybe not - but if it was well known in the area that he acted as an unlicensed taxi, in the event of an accident someone is likely to make the police aware of that :)

True enough Daisy, (Tracey would probably be the one to call :-D ) but it would still need to be proven that it was more than a social favour, there is a huge difference between that and an unlicensed cabbie.

Just re-readng Tracey's earlier post:

> Offering your services as a taxi home late at night when you've finished drinking to make some money

I'd be more worried that the chap was over the limit :) :) :)

Well I hope that is wrong Daisy, I'm reading it like this:

Offering your services as a taxi home, late at night when you've (meaning the friends) finished drinking to make some money.

If it is meant the other way as in 'he' offering lifts when finished drinking, then Tracey, no contest, just pick up the phone immediately call the police and say someone over the limit is driving friends home, it doesn't even matter about the potential making a living from it, that would be illegal on it's own.

>Social, Domestic and Pleasure (which sometimes even excludes commuting to work!);

Jeangenie is right with this comment.  I have my car insured fully comp, but have to have extra insurance to go on farm for work.  And work have to see that it says this on my insurance certificate.

Plus insurance companies do check this, I once had mine ringing to ask how I got to work as my policy was only SD&P (I didn't drive to work back then so wasn't an issue)

Yes its a mine field I have had to include business on mine as occasionally I may use my car to run errands while at work just for convenience or go to th eodd meeting. However I have made the decison to no longer carry any of the students because that opens up another load of problems