I have often wondered why people consider breeding their dogs when they were bought for pets.

I can understand a breeder because it is partly a job and it brings in money but I personally would never even think about breeding either of my dogs.

Just wondered. Perhaps I am missing the point and there is a good reason for it.

> I can understand a breeder because it is partly a job and it brings in money but I personally would never even think about breeding either of my dogs.

I don't think any ethical person breeds for money or tries to make dog breeding a job (unless they want to go into puppy farming). Someone once told me their last litter of puppies paid for their washing machine... I can think of other honest ways to scrape up cash that doesn't involve exploiting animals' lives. It's almost like prostituting your pets to make money, and if they're not registered or part of a breeding programme and bred to further the breed, then that's just what it is - animal pimping.

> I can understand a breeder because it is partly a job and it brings in money

Now that's the one I don't understand.  I don't think it should ever be viewed as a source of income...

I've bought my dogs as pets - they fulfil exactly that role in my (and my families) life.  However I do show them too (currently just the youngest one).  When I was doing all my breed research I met up with my chosen breeder at a few shows and thought it might be interesting to have a go.  My dogs breeder responded to my interest and let me have (both times) pick of the boys and gave me excellent examples of the breed.

As much for her as for me I had my first dog hip scored (it's good information for a breeder to have) and will do the same with the younger one when he's the right age.  He's currently doing very well at shows and demonstrates excellent working instincts.  I don't really want to do much with the working side but dual purpose dogs are important to the future development of our breed.  He might be asked to perform stud duties one day and I wouldn't rule it out.  If he has good hip scores, continues to perform well, and grow on as expected then he could really add much to the breed.  It depends on a number of factors but none of them are money.  I don't expect him to pay his way - he pays us tenfold just by living here - and I don't show him as some form of advertising BUT if it's the right bitch, the right time, the right circumstances and I think it would benefit the breed then maybe I'll say yes :)

Would I ever consider breeding with a bitch or a dog that isn't of good show or working ability that has been bought/sold as pet quality only?  Definitely not - unless there are very good reasons due to scarcity of blood lines, very low breed numbers and breed survival at stake.

Just where do you think your pets would come from if nobody bred?
There is no magical source of quality pups.
Personally I think good breeders ought to be encouraging people to breed their pets responsibly. with health tests etc. Like the sheltie owner in the other thread.
If the  responsible people stop breeding and produce less puppies then people will go to the puppy farmers and the like. There must be a market for pups if they are able to import thousands of pups a year so if we want people to go for well bred pups rather than puppy farmed then we need to make good pups available. Otherwise all people have is poorly bred pups.
Is it a coincidence that show entries are falling at such a rate. I don't believe the number of dogs being bred overall has decreased that much nor the number of dogs being kept as pets. All that is happening is that social pressures are forcing the good breeders to cut down on their breeding and the gap is being filled by the less good breeders so overall the quality of the dogs is falling. The backyard breeders and puppy farmers don't show so don't encourage their new owners to show so entries fall so there are less dog owners learning about how to produce good dogs. It is a vicious circle

I have often wondered why people consider breeding their dogs when they were bought for pets.

It's a logical sequence and it tends to work the same in all animal fancies. I have been involved in breeding, showing and also in most species (but not dogs) judging, since I was 12. Started with hamsters and mice, gradually crept upwards to rats, gerbils, guinea pigs, rabbits, eventually cats and then finally dogs. The sequence was the same in every case really.

You buy a pet, realise you really enjoy looking after it, become more and more interested, read books to learn more (well okay these days it might be internet), then you hear of a local show and think it might be fun to take part. You enter your first show, do absolutely nothing, but enjoy it, so join the breed club and keep at it. Make new friends, learn more and more, eventually start to win the odd award (or if you are really lucky, do really well). Showing becomes a huge part of your life and so you want something really good to show and win with, so you approach breeders about buying a really good animal to show, wait ages for that, show more, do better. Then one day the thought enters your head that wouldn't it be nice to breed your OWN animal to show. By now you have very firm ideas of what you want the breed to look like, what qualities you like, what you think could be improved on. So you pick the best stud you can find and breed your first litter, and then it continues from there.

Back in my days NOBODY woke up one day and thought "Let's breed a litter from our pet, it will be fun and make us some money!" When I started in animals, everyone felt breeders were those that showed (or in the case of dogs, also those heavily involved in field trials or similar) and it didn't even seem to occur to people you could breed a litter if you weren't already heavily involved in your fancy.

I bred my first litter of animals in 1980. I WANTED to breed a litter of pups for many years (and I first showed a dog in 1984), but it was ingrained in me that you ONLY breed when you also successfully showed, so it took 20 or so years before I felt I was able to breed that first litter of pups, from a bitch that was good enough.

Hmmm, I have just mated my pastoral breed, it will be my first litter and before I had even mated her I had spent £600 on health tests, I have spent in excess of £1000 this year alone in entry fees and petrol costs and training (I work her) for competition (and thats with a season cut short due to injury). Thats not to mention the cost of the whelping accessories and good quality food to feed her and the litter which will cost around £1000 if not more. And the the stud fee of £300..Then there are vets fees (that i obviously hope wont be expensive but am prepared if they are).
So thats a total of £2900 minimum that it will cost for this litter, with an average litter size of 4-8 I may make a small 'profit' but it is unlikely (and not why I am doing it)as I am breeding to keep one..so - £500 approx for that too.

I realise I am not classed as a 'pet' breeder as I work my dogs, but even pet breeders can and should do the relevant health tests and to raise a litter well is an expensive business...and they often do it because they love their bitch so much and really want a puppy from her. Now, if the 'pet' breeder decides to mate their bitch with the neighbours stud with no health tests and done as cheaply as possible then they are a BYB out to make money and nothing more, there is a difference, that said I dont agree with either.

Personally I think good breeders ought to be encouraging people to breed their pets responsibly. with health tests etc. Like the sheltie owner in the other thread.

No, good breeders encourage their buyers to show (but only if there is at least a flicker of an interest there, nothing worse than to be pushed into something you have no interest in), and then if they like it, maybe take it further. I would never DREAM of encouraging somebody to breed, that would just be a disaster waiting to happen. Most people are not cut out to be breeders and their lives would not fit around it. And what kind of breeders would we have that had no experience? How would they be able to advice their puppy buyers when they phone up with questions? Experience of a breed has to come first, long before breeding. The sort of experience you do not gain just by being a pet owner.

I am not meaning push all owners in to breeding when they don't want to but be a bit more encouraging if the interest is there. I see it so often on here . People come on and say should I breed my bitch. Now I agree that in a lot of cases the answer is quite correctly no, but sometimes people who seem to have all the right ideas and a good bitch also seem to be told no as well.

I know there are problems with irresponsible breeders and too many dogs in rescue, but I also see the shrinking numbers of good breeders and the vast increase in the puppy farmers and the ones just in it for the money. I just think we should be a bit more encouraging to people who have the interest and not just automatically do our best to put them off from breeding.

I am not meaning push all owners in to breeding when they don't want to but be a bit more encouraging if the interest is there. I see it so often on here . People come on and say should I breed my bitch.

The encouragement should still be to get more involved in the breed via showing or working FIRST, to gain the necessary experience.

Without breeders we would have no breeds, so no way to pick a dog that best suits our home, lifestyle, activity levels, family arrangements or aesthetic preferences. 

There are many shades of breeders but they fall into three general categories; 

There are those who follow the path explained in JeanSW's post, they start with a pet but soon find they want to become more involved in dog activities, be it showing, working in various fields (such as gundogs or search and rescue) or dog sports (agility/obedience etc).  They fall in love with the entire breed and want to be involved in its future - to see that breed become healthier, better suited to the work it was designed for, the best temperaments.  They want to leave their breed for future generations to ensure others can also enjoy those dogs and that they leave the breed in a better state then they found it.  This means they then start to breed, to improve on the dogs they have (that are already some of the best examples of the breed) to improve the breed as a whole.  They breed as a PART of their hobby - dogs and their breed.  Their dogs are a huge part of their life, they spend all their weekends at shows or trials, hours every day go into the care of their dogs, they spend years poring over pedigrees to find a stud that best matches their bitch, sometimes having a mating in mind two years before the bitch is ready for the litter.  When a bitch is about to give birth their lives go on hold, the breeders very existence revolves around the bitch and her litter, its care, wellbeing, socialisation etc.  They worry about puppy buyers, finding the perfect families for their precious babies carrying out hours of interviews, will offer support for the pups ENTIRE life and think and care about those pups for the rest of the pups life.  A good maxim for these breeders; they are the guardians of their breeds, they should aim to leave it in a better state than they found it and should do no harm (to the breed or dogs in general).

Then there are the pure out and out puppy farmers, to me these are those you talked about in your post that do it as a job, with tens or hundreds of breeding animals on their premises each in a cubicle or cage, minimal staff, no facilities or time to exercise, train, socialise, health test or spend time with any of these animals and so produce puppies that have never seen grass, only one or two people, from parents that are likely to suffer from breed health issues (that CAN be avoided by testing) and are completely unsuited to be a loving, balanced, healthy family pet.  I have seen dogs in my breed (small, popular with families) that have been used as breeding machines by these scum, they are so terrified they cannot be touched without peeing themselves, a huge proportion are blind from hereditary cataracts (so what will happen to their puppies sight?).  They hide in their bed for weeks before first wagging their tail very briefly in their fosterhome.  They need other dogs to show them how to cope with the human world.  I cannot understand such breeders.

Finally there are the people in the middle, back yard breeders who are primarily pet owners that think it might be nice to breed their little girl.  They have no knowledge of breeding, behaviour or training, very little knowledge of their breed and dogs in general and so are incapable of offering any help, advice or support to puppy buyers.  They breed to pay for their annual holiday, to show their kids the glory of birth (because placenta's, blood, a bitch in pain from contractions, stillborn or deformed puppies, possible complications, emergency surgery and even the death of their beloved pet is so glorious!), of because they want another just like their little girl because she is great!  They don't know the breed standard so pick any old dog, nearest is best.  The resulting puppies often look or behave nothing like the breed should so owners don't get the dog/breed they were expecting that they so carefully chose to match their lives meaning they are more likely to end up in rescue. I once saw a king charles cocker spaniel so big it was the same size as a clumber spaniel!  They don't know about breed specific health tests so think a 10 minute checkup at the vets is fine, ignorant of the fact that checkup cannot tell them if the hips show signs of displasia, if they are a genetic carrier of vonWillbrands disease, if they show signs of hereditary cataracts, all of which have the capability to be passed on to the puppies.  They don't know about the problems associated with breeding or how to best care for and socialise 6 puppies.

For me I know which kind of breeder I would love to have a puppy from and ones I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. 

> There are those who follow the path explained in JeanSW's post

I think you mean Goldmali :)  As far as I am aware JeanSW does not show or work her dogs.

Thank you for all the replies. It has given me something to think about.

It is nice to hear what people have to say on the subect.

I did, thanks Stooge.  Sorry Goldmali.

No problem. :)

> Personally I think good breeders ought to be encouraging people to breed their pets responsibly

I do quite the opposite.

If I ever sell one as a pet I make it quite clear that they will not be able to breed from it. Their registration is endorsed ( as are all mine) and I have a pretty weighty contract which I assure them will be enforced if need be.
In the event that any of these people start to make enquiries about breeding, I make things pretty taxing for them, they need to embark in expensive and ongoing health testing, I will insist that I expect them to endorse all their pups and that I will be keeping a close eye to make sure none fall into the hands of BYB or puppy farmers by whatever means.I have never seen my affix on any disreputable pedigree...yet :-(

In nearly 35 years only a tiny handful have gone all the way through to breeding, most have seen the sense in buying in another pet...and not always from me - I seldom have any.

Those who buy dogs specifically to show and breed are a completely different matter - they need to ensure the dog is a quality example by competition and health testing and then I will help them all the way.

I do realise that the numbers of pups produced will not meet the number wanted  but I want to keep my own house in order and dont feel that I want my dogs involved in supply and demand.

sorry but there is no such breed as a king charles cocker spaniel !!!!!!

I want to breed for the first time as I have had my breed for nearly 15yrs now, played at most things with them except showing. Don't want to show at all but want to help correct some of the issues within my breed and create a better dog. Love the breed, love their challenges and would be the final part of my picture with them.To know I have,hopefully, added to the breed and to see the pups grow up and blossom in their families.

Other part is people will want dogs regardless so why not at least try to put some good dogs out there and give potential owners the chance to make better choices. Rather than have them go to puppy farms or bad breeders.

I will also be looking at replacing my old girl at some point(hopefully few years left yet!) and I would like to have a dog I know all about from a training point of view and see the difference for myself. As should anything go wrong only myself to blame with the training. And how much is down to genetics etc. And how much is environmental. Comes from a deep passion for dogs fullstop more so for my breed but ONLY if my bitch passes all tests and my own for temperament will I go ahead. I'll be the biggest stumbling block as I will be looking for her flaws and wondering could other people handle it, what if this, what if that.

How very true, I meant cavalier king charles spaniel, must learn to re-read what I've written better!! ;)

> Don't want to show at all but want to help correct some of the issues within my breed and create a better dog.

On your own without the benefit of any experience in showing or working? 
I'm puzzled how you think you have gained enough understanding to even fully appreciate what, if anything, is wrong with your breed let alone what would be the best course of action to amend it.

>I'll be the biggest stumbling block as I will be looking for her flaws

That is the purpose of showing or working trials.

> Other part is people will want dogs regardless so why not at least try to put some good dogs out there and give potential owners the chance to make better choices. Rather than have them go to puppy farms or bad breeders.

Happyhoundgirl, many 'pet' breeders will not consider themselves bad breeders: some, like you, will be doing health tests and considering temperament.  The question as Stooge points out is exactly who will be determining quality?  You really need to get a dog 'judged' in agility, working, competitive obedience, or showing, to know if you will be benefiting the breed.  You also need a fair amount of skill, or some good mentors, to identify the best stud for your bitch.

>> Don't want to show at all but want to help correct some of the issues within my breed and create a better dog.
> On your own without the benefit of any experience in showing or working?
> I'm puzzled how you think you have gained enough understanding to even fully appreciate what, if anything, is wrong with your breed let alone what would be the best course of action to amend it.
>
>

I must say I think that's rather an arrogant comment. The poster said she had owned the breed for 15 years and "played at most things with them except showing." and wasn't interested in doing that. Showing isn't for everyone. Maybe if people who do show gave a little more thought to the other things that dogs can do apart from showing, pedigree dogs might be in a better state and there wouldn't be so much for the likes of JH to complain about.

I don't show, don't breed, but know plenty of people who do both. Some of them allow their dogs to be dogs, others just think of their dogs as a means to winning prizes :(

>The poster said she had owned the breed for 15 years and "played at most things with them except showing." and wasn't interested in doing that. Showing isn't for everyone. Maybe if people who do show gave a little more thought to the other things that dogs can do apart from showing, pedigree dogs might be in a better state and there wouldn't be so much for the likes of JH to complain about.

If you're taking on the responsibility of bringing life into the world you need to have a greater interest than just "playing at things". This is an incredibly serious and important matter, and needs the deepest of thought if it's to be done properly. And for that you need to get unbiased, independent opinions of your dog from other experts - it really can't be done responsibly in isolation.

> Showing isn't for everyone. Maybe if people who do show gave a little more thought to the other things that dogs can do apart from showing

I think I did refer to working trials.

> it really can't be done responsibly in isolation.

Exactly and without the networking that is only really possible when you involve yourself with showing, working trials, higher level obedience competition or whatever I think it would be extremely unlikely you are going to learn enough about lines and combination of lines as to have a hope of "correcting" or even whether your idea for "correcting" the breed is indeed appropriate. 
You could say that idea is rather arrogant in the face of the experienced breeders within whatever breed this is :)

I do dog training folks!! I don't want to show!! That simple!! Just because I don't show doesn't mean I won't produce a good product. I'm a vet nurse know lots about genetics, health etc showing isn't my bag!! I know what makes a good dog can pick a winner at 20 paces! Picked the winner of my breed at crufts this year on first run round the ring.

There's more to dogs than showing!! Didn't say what I do with my dogs, didn't say their dual registered, didn't say they do sheep didn't say at lot really except I don't want to show. I want good temperament and as far as KC breeders near me go, they are awful!! My puppies will go to training homes only! Not everyone has to show have connections!! Being somewhat narrow minded there.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. And in reality just how many of the hundreds of pedigree dogs that are bred every year go to show homes and how many go to pet homes? I reckon most go to pet homes by far in fact no doubt about it. But once again my puppies will go only to training homes with enough experience to handle the dogs. 

>I'm a vet nurse know lots about genetics, health etc

From experience I know that the two don't often go hand in hand.

>There's more to dogs than showing!! Didn't say what I do with my dogs, didn't say their dual registered, didn't say they do sheep didn't say at lot really except I don't want to show. I want good temperament and as far as KC breeders near me go, they are awful!! My puppies will go to training homes only! Not everyone has to show have connections!! Being somewhat narrow minded there.

As Stooge pointed out, she mentioned working as well. No narrow-mindedness there. ;-)

>And in reality just how many of the hundreds of pedigree dogs that are bred every year go to show homes and how many go to pet homes? I reckon most go to pet homes by far in fact no doubt about it.

They should all go to pet homes - it's just that some of them get shown as well. In an ideal world there'd be no mismarks etc which would preclude them from being shown; breeders should be aiming to for all the puppies to be top quality, not 'purely pets'.

> I want good temperament and as far as KC breeders near me go, they are awful!!

For the third time I did not say exclusively conformation showing, any kind of competition or exhibiting is going to give you the benefit of a wider and more knowledgable understanding of your dogs worth.

And in reality just how many of the hundreds of pedigree dogs that are bred every year go to show homes and how many go to pet homes? I reckon most go to pet homes by far in fact no doubt about it.
When i was looking at dogs I chose a breed I liked the look of that would fit in with the lifestyle I lead and my dog experience, I didn't want to risk a mistake and an unhappy dog. Even though I was looking for a dog for a mainly pet home (I had no interest in showing then, that's happened since) I still wanted a dog that conformed to the breed standard. I paid out a lot of money to ensure a healthy dog with a reasonably predictable temperament and appearance. To me getting a dog from someone with proven consistency in all three, be that from show or working success, is the only way to do that. My first dog is 'just a pet' but I don't think anything less of her for it and I would never have bought her from anyone who thought they could treat her or her litter any differently because they were destined for pet homes. All puppies deserve the best possible because being just a pet is the most important job for any dog.

I think it's my misuse of language that has caused some confusion. I have "played" at training for years now and earn a good living at it. Local vets recommend me, girls I used to vet with use me so I can't be that bad at it.

I don't feel the need to post/boast about winning awards etc which is another good reason for me not to show. I'm just not very good at self promo and that's just me! Doesn't mean I'm a crap trainer nor would it make me a crap breeder. as for being a vet nurse not making me a good breeder!! I can understand where you come from with that met many a nurse/vet who breed that shouldn't.

What has happened on here again as I have seen repeatedly now is a case of "My way or the high way!" Luckily enough I'm open to hearing and I'm trying to hear. But yelling teaches nothing to no one!! To say nothing about how far off the orignal post this has gone. It has turned into tirade against someone who has said I don't want to show!! And there have been a lot of assumptions made by people, mostly incorrectly. Although that may have been the use of my language. Showing isn't for me, and I haven't disclosed anything else for anyone to make assumptions that I don't know/understand/network/have a mentor. Don't believe I said a thing about it. All assumptions.

>I don't feel the need to post/boast about winning awards etc which is another good reason for me not to show.

Why would you have to boast? There's no rule that says you have to publicise your wins in any field, whether that's showing (which you seem to be focussed on here) or any of the other dog sports. Competition in any of the fields (working trials, gundog trials, agility, obedience etc) keeps one's eyes on the bigger picture.

>But yelling teaches nothing to no one!!

Luckily nobody's yelling - it's all calm debate. No tirade. :-)

> It has turned into tirade against someone who has said I don't want to show!!

For the fourth time..................:)
 

> What has happened on here again as I have seen repeatedly now is a case of "My way or the high way!" Luckily enough I'm open to hearing and I'm trying to hear. But yelling teaches nothing to no one!!

If your dogs are achieving success in obedience then of course they are demonstrating their worth :)  I have no idea where you have read this "one way" of doing things and nor has anyone yelled although I might if you keep failing to read my posts :)

>As far as I am aware JeanSW does not show or work her dogs

Not so.  I have worked dogs for 40 odd years.

I was thinking of the toys :)

>All puppies deserve the best possible because being just a pet is the most important job for any dog.

Amen to that.

I guess you don't remember Misty then.  And how devastated I was to lose her just before her 17th birthday.

Fortunately, most on here fully understood our closeness.  I was totally wiped out when she went to Rainbow Bridge.  And I do admit that teaching tracking to a Toy Poodle in full show coat, really did crank my tractor.  Silly sod that I am, it gave me such satisfaction, and I did enjoy the looks I got from the people that saw the breed as a lap dog.  :-) 

This is the first time since the 70's that I haven't had a Toy Poodle in the house.  And it hurts like hell.  But they are pretty damn good at obedience, it has to be said.  :-)

I do still have 3 Collies.

> And I do admit that teaching tracking to a Toy Poodle in full show coat, really did crank my tractor

That is impressive :) but I did not think you showed your current breeds.  Not sure why.

>Not sure why.

:-(  :-(  :-(
Probably because my last dog, bred myself, and kept to show because I loved his type, grew as big as a Great Dane.  He is way, way over breed standard size, even though the Kennel Club changed the breed standard and upped the size!  We are probably talking saddle size here.  But hey, I love him.