Hi

I don't know what to do really.  I have always wanted to breed one litter from my sheltie and what with moving house and renovating it,  the time hasn't been right.  However she is due in season again later this year and there is a very well known breeder with a super stud dog within a few miles of me. The breeder of my sheltie has looked into the pedigrees and advised me that this is an ideal match.  However I have to say although retired my husband and I do struggle a bit with our existing four dogs!.  We have a big house and garden so space isn't really a problem but the logistics of looking after and exercising all four is time consuming.  The reason for four is that I rescued Hannah from Crete when I met her on the beach 3 years ago (I had to) - otherwise there would only be three.  Hey ho!!

My sheltie has the most lovely temperament (she is a PAT dog) and is so pretty with a marvellous coat - I know she would have lovely puppies.  I know that to successfully show I do need to breed some pups of my own and I do enjoy a bit of showing but have never had much success with Isla as her eyes are a bit round!  She is three now and I feel if I do breed it has to be now really.  My husband is not really keen on my doing so as feels we have enough dogs already although obviously I would keep one for myself and sell the others.  Still if I don't do it I know I will always regret it!

Any thoughts anyone - I am sure others must have hummed and hah'd too.

Snowflake

I am sure that a sheltie person will be along shortly. But in my opinion if you are undecided then don't.!!.
There is no guarantee that your bitch will produce show quality puppies, it can take years and many generations to produce really good winners as I know only too well. Also it depends on what level you want to show...
I dont want to sound too negative but also puppies even if everything goes O.K. are a lot of work and it may be better to wait for a show quality puppy to buy, though it seems that your husband is not keen on having any more dogs.?

Difficult to say but my immediate observations on what you have written...

> there is a very well known breeder with a super stud dog within a few miles of me. The breeder of my sheltie has looked into the pedigrees and advised me that this is an ideal match

Surprise, surprise! Oh if only that happened to me - the most suitable dog just a couple of miles down the road. Since you will be giving her hundreds of pounds, please remember this will be influencing her opinion :-)

> My husband is not really keen on my doing so as feels we have enough dogs already although obviously I would keep one for myself and sell the others.

It takes two to tango in a happy household and if he's not on board you will find it very trying indeed.

> I know that to successfully show I do need to breed some pups of my own and I do enjoy a bit of showing but have never had much success

> with Isla as her eyes are a bit round!

Then looking for the perfect dog to offset her failings should be your goal. Distance should not be considered if you want the best.

Just my take on it of course :-)

> I know that to successfully show I do need to breed some pups of my own

I don't think you do. I think you just need to get friendly with a successful exhibitor/breeder - one who sells good dogs to others and get on their waiting list. I made up 2 champions and won tickets with several other dogs all before I bred a litter :-)

>>there is a very well known breeder with a super stud dog within a few miles of me. The breeder of my sheltie has looked into the pedigrees and advised me that this is an ideal match
>Surprise, surprise! Oh if only that happened to me - the most suitable dog just a couple of miles down the road. Since you will be giving her hundreds of pounds, please remember this will be influencing her opinion

It's the bitch's breeder that has given this advice, not the stud dog owner. ;-)

That said, I believe that round eyes can be very difficult to breed out and you'd need to make sure that the proposed stud dog and none of his relatives or offspring had this problem.

If your husband isn't behind you 100% I'd say don't do it. You're going to need his help when the litter's on the ground because having a litter is enormously disruptive to a household, although usually very rewarding.

And of course there's no guarantee that any pups from any litter will be show quality; be prepared for her litter to be lovely pet quality. If you really want a show-quality puppy you'd be better buying one in from a breeder who's already successful in the show ring.

Something that jumps out at me straight away is that you have 4 dogs already your hubby does not want anymore, which to me is a big problem. So if all goes to plan you'll have 5 dogs, a lot to handle in your retirement stage? Another 12+ years of dog ownership...........

You must very seriously think of these implications what happens if there are complications, your bitch is seriously ill or dies (unfortunately it happens not infrequently) the pups born can also have problems all births are not - here are the pups a lot can go wrong so you need to also know what to do to help bitch and pups if there are medical problems along the way, and think of the risk to your girl. It is best to think of all the negatives first and if you could cope with them. :-)

But even if all goes well it seems your main point to do this is to get a pup to show from, as already said, what if the pups born are nothing special, that also happens all the time too, you could go through all this for nothing and then have an extra dog, which your hubby does not want, if you had the scope to keep trying then it may be worth continuing for a fab show dog, but to me it doesn't seem that you have the scope for this.

You say you will regret it if you don't do it, what would you regret? :-)

My husband is not really keen on my doing so as feels we have enough dogs already although obviously I would keep one for myself and sell the others.

Don't forget that you may not find suitable homes for all so may have to keep more than one, and even if you only keep one, you may have another returned a year or more down the line -taking an adult dog back is what all breeders have to be prepared to do, so you must make sure you are able to do so. You never know how things work out, even with small litters. I had a litter of four pups fairly recently, all were spoken for long before birth, then things changed, one turned out not to be showable and I therefore at 17 weeks still have two pups here -the one that can't be shown and the one I was going to keep all along. I'm hoping I will find a great pet home in due course, of course, but it's never guaranteed. (And it's going to be very hard to say goodbye at this age, as well.)

Just to add a few positives Snowflake, very pleased that you have your girls breeder on board and she may have very well found the perfect stud dog for your girl, when you know your breed, you know the stud dogs depending on how well sourced she is, so the stud dog may well be fine, but I'd also do a little digging yourself it's great to have a trusted mentor but, after all if you did go ahead what your bringing into the world is your responsibility alone.

Your not just flippantly going to breed, your using the right people to source and you have done some showing, but as previously said it is the negative side to breeding you need to seriously think about.

It's the why, how and if it is what you really want and can cope with that you need to focus on also. :-)

One more point if you did breed her, winter litters are much harder due to the fact the outdoors space can be limited for when the pups are running around needing that garden space to help with toilet training, space and play, something else to think of too. :-)

> It's the bitch's breeder that has given this advice, not the stud dog owner

Oooops...teach me to skim read and jump to conclusions!

I think I'd have to recommend not, in your case - easy for me to say, as you know I already have 3 and am hoping to get a 4th if any good breeder ever lets me have one! But if your hubby is already not keen on a 5th, plus you do have a few behavioural problems with your existing group, the chicken chasing and lack of recall from Hannah (not her fault or yours I know, just because of her previous life), makes me think looking after a litter and then a 5th dog might be a bit much. Make sure you read the BOTB, this will give you some idea of what to expect and the possible pros and cons.

Contrary to popular belief breeders of quality stock do want to sell their most promising puppies (if they are not keeping that sex or one from that particular litter) to those who can do them Justice and will show the best ones, as we can't keep them all ourselves. 

For what they are worth my thoughts are if everything is not 100% for the breeding then don't.

You seems to have a lot of reasons against and no reason for as your reason for is to show, far better to buy in a show pup, you could breed for years to finally get a pup of suitable quality and at each whelp you risk the life of your brood bitch.

Make it known that you really want to show a quality bitch to those breeders who breed good stock and wait to be offered one.

Hi Snowflake

Breeding shelties is a tricky business - it's impossible to say that if you bred a litter that there'd be one which would be the show quality that you're looking for, she may only have one or two, they may be too big or too small, their ears (or eyes) may not be right for showing.  She may need a caesarian.  They are a tough breed to get show quality pups.  Why not get to know some sheltie breeders and buy a pup in - you could also join a sheltie forum (pm you) to find out more about the lines you may be interested in and get to meet people who show (I don't although I do have shelties).

Good luck

Penny

Hi All

Thanks very much for all your advice!  I know the negatives outweigh the positives!  Maybe the way forward would be to try to buy a show quality puppy - although when I was first looking for a sheltie it seemed difficult to find a show quality one and of course nobody knew who I was.  Mind you, I now know a lot more about the breed than I did then so know more what to look for.  My breeder is well known and may be able to point me in the right direction, she has always been successful in the show ring.  And of course you are right, I have considered the risk to Isla - I couldn't bear anything to happen to her.

Lucy - I  have to say that the chicken chaser has chased no chickens this summer (I am not saying that he is completely reformed!!) and Hannah thanks to obedience classes is much better with her recall!

Just my one regret is that all the years I was working full time I always had rescue dogs (Isla is the only one who isn't) I never had time to breed as litter and I suppose it is something I always wanted to do.

Penny I would be pleased to hear from you regarding  a sheltie forum. 

Thanks again

Snowflake

I would strongly suggest looking at health tests before you breed. Hip scores, DNA CEA test and eye exam (not sure if anyone else has mentioned it).
Only then can you know if she's suitable to breed.
I took in 2 dogs with "faults" before I got my show dog. Its easier to buy in a show pup than breed your own imo, even more so with a first time litter as its hard to say what you will get.

If your partner doesnt want any more dogs then I suggest you just wait and buy a new puppy in to show later on. As, if for some reason a pup gets returned to you and you have problems re-selling it for whatever reason you will then have an extra dog running around.

Best of luck. :)

Hah! Not in my experience, albeit that is not a valid statistical sample. I tried for many months before I got Ellie, who is fair but not outstanding quality. I have now been trying again for a year with no result more promising than a 'keep in touch' from one good breeder, and an almost-puppy snatched away at the last minute from another one. I am a little 'known' in the breed from my first dog, so quality breeders ought to know that I will do a promising puppy justice. No wonder show entries are falling, I haven't entered a show in nearly a year, as I have nothing to take. :-(

>Contrary to popular belief breeders of quality stock do want to sell their most promising puppies (if they are not keeping that sex or one from that particular litter) to those who can do them Justice and will show the best ones, as we can't keep them all ourselves.

Hi Snowflake, I use this a lot (not just regarding dogs) - If in doubt, do nowt.

I think the situation in breeds with small litters may be a little harder Lucy.  Especially as these are often small/toy breeds that it is easier to keep more than say you can with a medium large breed. 

Also it seems to be easy to home small breed puppies/adolescents that have been run on, so may mean breeders keep more than one to see how it turns out before finally homing to a pet home.

If you haven't got your husband on board, think twice about it. Puppies can quickly become a two person job. It's very rewarding to breed a liter but also extremely tiring. I can understand you would want to breed your own litter though as from my experience, getting a nice show potential puppy from another breeder is very hard! You have to be lucky and have been in contact with many :-)
As Penny said, if you join a sheltie forum, you can get to chat to breeders and get involved online (and by meeting up at shows) so you can see which lines you like and make contact with breeders.
I will PM you a few details :-) You live very close to me so, feel free to contact me if you need to chat more about shelties and breeding :-)

I think the situation in breeds with small litters may be a little harder Lucy.  Especially as these are often small/toy breeds that it is easier to keep more than say you can with a medium large breed.

It is -especially if the dog to show that is wanted needs to be a bitch. In Papillons you could be waiting for years and years without being able to buy a bitch to show unless you were close to a breeder or simply got lucky -but a dog would be easier to find. Toydogs also don't decrease in value as they get older and will cost the same to buy at 6 months as they would at 8-12 weeks or so, so yes, they are run on.

I agree that it is very difficult to find a show quality bitch, at least in sheltie land anyway.  All the breeders I know (including Isla's) tend to run on any pup which looks to have potential.  As shelties usually only have 3 or 4 pups they usually immediately sell the one or two that obviously don't cut the mustard.  The others will be run on to see how they develop.  If they are show quality they keep them and if not, they usually  get sold to a good pet home (this is what my breeder does).

When Isla was born it was decided to keep her sister who looked a good prospect.  However as the weeks went on she became too leggy and her coat never developed as it should (important in shelties).  However she had a great temperament.  She bred a litter from her last year, two of whom are doing well in the show ring. so you never know.  If a bitch has a good pedigree behind her she may produce good puppies as long as you pick the right stud dog to try to rectify any faults.  My breeder often said with hindsight she would have kept Isla who is exactly the right size with a much better coat - but not suich a good head as her sister

As Isla's breeder is so successful she often does "buy in" pups from fellow breeders with lots of success because they know she is so experienced and successful in the show ring.  Much more difficult when you don't have a track record like me.  I do fear that like Lucy it will be a hard task to find my ideal pup!!!

Snowflake

Quote Tooolz: "Oh if only that happened to me - the most suitable dog just a couple of miles down the road. Since you will be giving her hundreds of pounds, please remember this will be influencing her opinion"

Tooolz - as the owner of several quality dogs that have been used at stud over the years, I take offence at this remark! I think it might have been more appropriate to state that the prospective stud fee MAY be influencing the stud dog's owner.

> My breeder often said with hindsight she would have kept Isla who is exactly the right size with a much better coat - but not such a good head as her sister

At least with a breeder like this you'll still have access to Isla's lines in years to come.  You can have a puppy from a sister, granny etc and get the benefit of all her experience - you could tell her that you'd like to be considered for a 2nd pick bitch/dog from a close relative in xx years time - when your husband is ready to increase the family numbers...

Alternatively have you thought about the possibility of Isla's breeder having her back on a loan of bitch agreement and raising the puppies herself under her affix?  I know it can get a bit complicated - depending on how the two of you decide to allocate pick bitch and 2nd pick (you or her) but I have seen it work

I have to say I think that if you have a good quality healthy bitch and a good stud lined up and do all the health tests and are able to find good owners then why not. Most dogs are pets first and we need more WELL BRED puppies in this world not less.

Most dogs are pets first and we need more WELL BRED puppies in this world not less.

No, we need well informed puppy buyers. The well bred puppies are not always selling, people go out and buy the badly bred ones instead because they are so badly informed and believe they get something better. If the good breeders start to breed more, all that will happen is that none of us will be able to sell our pups. Don't forget you have LOTS of people who now actively avoids any breeder that shows and even KC registers because they think that equals a bad breeder! Many even believe if the parents are health tested there must be something wrong, why else would the breeder see a need to test? So they go to Joe Bloggs down the road with ickle cute Fluffy who isn't KC registered, has not had any tests, but they so wanted pups and their vet said Fluffy was healthy and would make a great mum.

Your right lilyowen I'd much rather have a puppy from someone like Snowflake, we do need more good breeders, with knowledgeable mentors behind them who understand the dogs lines. I'm not worried that things would not be done carefully and properly with Snowflake. Snowflakes breeder may very well already be telling her of all the pitfalls and negative sides to breeding along with the longterm commitment to all pups, but they must be pointed out and especially the reasonings for doing it, the main bugbear here is already having 4 dogs with no added support from hubby, already saying that 4 dogs can be a struggle and possibly breeding and not getting what she wants at the end of it.

I guess if good waiting lists are prepared and there is  nothing in a first litter all pups could be let go and she could try one more time, but she'll have to be tough not to keep one and then another and end up with 5-6 dogs not practical when 4 are already stretching it.

Whatever Snowflake decides she can properly think things through and make the decision that is right for her alone. :-)

> No, we need well informed puppy buyers.

But we also need good puppies for them to buy. the number of registrations in some breeds has fallen so much that if you want a well bred puppy you may have to wait years.
I am really just trying to work out how to redress the balance a bit.

> the main bugbear here is already having 4 dogs with no added support from hubby, already saying that 4 dogs can be a struggle and possibly breeding and not getting what she wants at the end of it.

exactly. and yet a lot of people were just saying don't breed go and buy a pup. the end result is the same. An extra dog in the family. Albeit with less work involved.

the number of registrations in some breeds has fallen so much that if you want a well bred puppy you may have to wait years.

Which the well informed buyer will do. The badly informed buyer will not even wait a week, so it won't make a difference.

the end result is the same. An extra dog in the family

The end result could be FOUR extra dogs in the family if breeding, if not all pups sell or some come back. HUGE difference.

>> No, we need well informed puppy buyers.
> But we also need good puppies for them to buy. the number of registrations in some breeds has fallen so much that if you want a well bred puppy you may have to wait years.
> I am really just trying to work out how to redress the balance a bit.

This is the situation in my breed at the moment, there are not enough puppies for the enquiries, but if two or more litters are born close together and there is an imbalance of sexes it can mean breeders hanging onto pups longer, but with so few available they will be found homes eventually, just more work for the breeder. 

This was the case at the beginning of the year with two litters born in December one in January and two in February.  Since then I think there has only been one litter born in April and people looking for puppies have been going round and round with none in the pipeline until the end of the year/early next.

Many of these people will either buy an unregistered BYB/PF pup or get another breed :(

This is not so much the case in readily available/exploited breeds when people are told by well iontentioned experts, not to get an older puppy as they must have it at 8 weeks.  So you end up with a well bred litter struggling to be homed later, and the BYB ones snapped up at 6 - 8 weeks.  This situation scares potentil/fledgling ethical breeders from breeding.

> the number of registrations in some breeds has fallen so much that if you want a well bred puppy you may have to wait years.

I think this is possibly the one circumstance where purely pet owners may be encouraged to breed from healthy specimens without necessarily showing or working.  Not particularly to supply pet owners but for the good of the breeds health by improving the numbers available to the gene pool.
Certainly one of the breed clubs of which I am a member put out this request some time ago due to very low registrations, the closeness to the breed standard being regarded as secondary in these conditions.

Well - I am still mulling over the best thing to do.  I must say that although hubby is not that keen to breed he loves all our dogs and I know he would support and help me as that is the sort of chap he is. 

When I said I would like to be successful in the showing field I didn't mean in an obsessive way.  The shows I've been to where most breeders are friendly and know each other have made me feel I'd like to be part of it, even to get a third of fourth would be wonderful!  I don't aspire to Crufts although that would be the icing on the cake!  Isla's breeder,  even if she has no suitable show dogs at the time is often asked to show other breeders' dogs - shows how good she is!

I think if I do breed Isla, selling the puppies shouldn't be a problem as shelties are popular little dogs being bright, good at obedience and agility (as is Isla) and of course, pretty and affectionate.  The coat may put some people off as it takes much grooming.  There is also the issue of the ear splitting yap!  I was for instance reading on a sheltie forum that generally when a sheltie unfortunately gets put on the sheltie rehoming register he/she is in and out the same day!  I have already had an enquiry for one of Isla's (mythical) pups(!!) from a lady who goes to my groomers and who sadly lost her sheltie recently.  My groomer who loves Isla put her on to me - but I feel really she should contact one of the good sheltie puppy registers - I don't want the pressure at the moment.  being undecided.

I think I will discuss the whole issue with Isla's breeder who has always been my mentor. 

It has been really  helpful to hear everyone's view point, thanks so much.

Snowflake