hi all my new x bred bitch we got 3 weeks ago is in pup,i noticed last week her teats getting big she has more of a bag like broodmare would get her waist is getting thicker and i can see pups moving and kicking,milly must of been caught by dog before we got her,i have no experince whelping i have only foaled and calfed i could do with help and advice please thank u

If she were mine I would be down at the vets 1st thing tomorrow morning hoping that I was in time to give her Alizin. With so many dogs in rescue the last thing I would recommend would be allowing a litter of unknown parentage from a rescue bitch to be born.

Honestly I would have the pregnancy terminated if it is at all possible. You have absolutely no way of knowing who or what the father is and to be honest there are more than enough carefully thought out litters for all the sniffer dogs/working dogs/pet dogs required.

You are not allowed to describe a litter as it can be thought to be advertising it but I would say there are plenty of similar crosses in rescue suitable for such training.  I have to agree with Chaumsongs comments.
If her owner put her in rescue I doubt the breeding was planned and I think, therefore, it may not necessarily be the sire that you think.  Not only is it an unplanned litter if the sire was very much larger, for instance, you are possibly putting the bitch at risk.
I do think the responsible thing to do is see the vet immediately.

Good point Stooge, I hadn't even considered the possibility that dad may be much larger, possibly a breed with a large head that normally requires caesareans - you just don't know. This could end up costing you a fortune in vet bills, for pups you'll be lucky to find good homes for.

Also just noticed this bitch is only 13 months old. For a medium to large breed like this she is far too young physically and mentally for motherhood.

Oh boy. I've never been in your position but I would also be going for Alizin. In this day and age, there are too many bad things that can happen to puppies and dogs during their lives no matter how conscientious you are. You only have to ask on here how hard it can be to findnthe right homes, and how easily potential owners can cheat the best breeders and condemn a dog to a life of misery.    

And that is without thinking  of the risk to your lovely girl.

If the pups are visably moving about it may be too late for the injection but worth asking the vet, he may suggest spaying her instead. have you told the rescue you got her from what has happened?

I agree with the others about bringing more mongrel pups into the world and with her mental as well as physical immaturity you may end up having to hand rear them which is very time consuming.

I agree with the other as regards terminating if it is at all possible. But even if you don't want to do that I would be booking her into the vets and a scan ASAP (Scan doesn't have to be vets nec. Sheep scanners are great!) To try and find out dates and numbers.
Amongst all the other risks is the one that as you don't know when she's due you wouldn't be able to tell if she was starting early, or if there was a problem and she just didn't start. Did you get her from a rescue centre or was it a private rescue? Could you try and find out when she was last in season?

If you have to have the puppies because its too far along.............
A) try and find dates and numbers
b) make sure she has a really god diet from now on (my preferred is raw, an in whelp and nursing bitch would be having Ad lib feed whatever)
C) Buy the 'book of the bitch' and/or any other books you can find to read to advise you about whelping/puppy rearing. Have a search on here and see some of the older posts re whelping problems and homing puppies. Do some Googling, I dare say there are Utube videos of whelpings if you want too!

good luck!

It's going to be far too late to terminate this if you can see the pups!  I'd go back to the rescue where you got her from and get them to take over, letting you have her back when it's all finished.  Why should you have the worry over the pregnancy and birth and finding homes in these difficult times?  It's tough I know - but I agree with other posters, you don't know the dog, how big etc and you took on the bitch not her litter.  Have a chat with them, it may be possible for them to have her scanned and you can keep her with you up to the whelping time, although better for her to be sorted perhaps with a knowledgeable foster of theirs before she goes through the trauma of birth.  Good luck and let us know what happens.

It's going to be far too late to terminate this if you can see the pups!

Exactly. Sounds like she's nearly due, 8-9 weeks gone I bet. I've never SEEN pups move before 8 weeks. Far too risky to try Alizin not knowing the dates, better then to allow pups be born (let's face it, with Alizin there would still BE labour and birth when done at a late stage) and have all but one or two of the pups put to sleep.

If it is too late I would say Pennys option is by far the best and may even be obligatory under the adoption agreement.

Trouble is reading our OP's past posts the bitch has come from Belfast whether she came straight from there or via a rescue here I don't know, so even though the suggestions are spot on, we might need to just help out as best as we can.

If the rescue is not an option or a good foster home can not be found along with a good mentor, at such a late stage first thing is to quickly order Book Of The Bitch and get reading, go on ebay and order a full whelping kit and prepare a whelping area for the bitch her time is close, get the vet on standby for any problems and a full check up and keep on the forum asking questions when needed and we'll be here to talk you through as much as possible.

It's one of those horrible situations when one is thrown in at the deep end, so it's sink or swim, hopefully we can keep you afloat. :-)

this happened to someone I know they got the bitch from RSPCA Dogs home and were unable to have her until she had finished her season.

They wondered why she wasn't gaining some body but was getting pot bellied, you guessed it she was in whelp (what's worse is seh had been in the dogs hoem for months, so soemeon had slipped up and let her get mated by a male dog while there).

She was a GSD cross and had 9 puppies, she was only a baby herself (the dogs home had offered to have her back, but the owner did not want to put her through that).

When the pregnancy was discovered she had a talk with her vet, who agreed to put to sleep all but two pups.  As son as they were born the vet came and took away 7, and the remaining two who had already been found homes with family and friends were reared.

This may seem harsh but you have a much better chance of successfully homing two pups and being able to give back up to the owners (potentially have them back in future) than a possibly large litter.  Also it will be much less hard on the immature bitch.  If it's done quickly she won't notice how many pups she has.

Forgot to add if your vet has not already informed you, (though I'm sure they have) you will need to change your bitches food to a complete puppy food to give her all the extra nutrients that she needs at this time. :-)

Read everything that you can get your hands on to give your girl every chance, she is so young she needs you to be as well informed as you can be. The fact that you have experience with horses will go a long way at least you will hopefully be able to spot any problems if they happen.

Very best of luck and keep us informed as to how you are doing.

Sensible though the sugguestions are they are quite hard ones to carry out (ie abortion/ pup reduction at birth/handing dog back to rescue) and although I do agree i think its very unlikely most folk will feel able to carry them out.

I would sugguest the owner take the dog to the vet today and get an opinion on when likely to give birth and what needs doing now in way of feeding/worming/ preparing for birth and so as have vet help at hand if needed during birth.

owner will need to see if they can take some time off work- or arrange for other people the bitch likes to suppervise the litter during first weeks. and set up a quiet private room for the bitch away from other animals where she can rear her litter in peace.

definatly get hold of the book of the bitch and learn to speed read today.

regarding the rescue.. will they cover some of the expenses of this? ie if bitch has medical emergency during birth? worth asking.  also would they take responsibility for finding the pups homes when they are old enough to leave?

> Sensible though the sugguestions are they are quite hard ones to carry out (ie abortion/ pup reduction at birth/handing dog back to rescue)

I am not sure you can describe handing back to rescue a hard option.  It depends on whether the rescue has experienced people who can take this bitch in.  The current owner may not be able to truly offer round the clock care for several weeks any experience and may be very grateful for their assistance.

> first thing is to quickly order Book Of The Bitch

I still think first thing is a trip to the vets, but I'm sure you meant that :-)

we have talked throw all pro and cons ,we are going to let milly carry on we got milly from her previos owner she was not rescue, bit upset at people sayinh treminte as someone that has lost baby i could not do it to bitch i have friend and 2 good vets one for horse and vets

> bit upset at people sayinh treminte as someone that has lost baby i could not do it to bitch

With the best will in the world - toughen up.  This is a dog not a human and you will need to be objective, not sentimental, to see her through this.  Her needs should come before those of her puppies.

If you are going to ask advice on an open forum you will always be presented with both sides of the debate.  You need to make up your own mind but it's important to hear the 'whole' argument when you have decisions to make.

In the meantime you could do with finding out more from her previous owner - you should be able to roughly calculate mating dates - and the more information you have about the possible father the better informed you'll be about the potential health risks to your bitch.  Additionally you need to know if the resulting puppies are going to be easy to home.  You will be adding to an already overburdened crossbreed market so you must be prepared to cope with keeping some of the puppies. 

These will be hard decisions to make but sadly it's down to you to make them.  Good luck with whatever you decide

I am truly sorry if the thought of terminating or reducing the litter upsets you but what is appropriate for animals involves completely different ethics than humans.
I don't think you should be upset at people suggesting it.
Our responsibility is to ensure any pets we bring into the world have a very good prospect of finding suitable homes and that seems rather slim for an unplanned litter of uncertain pedigree.

bit upset at people sayinh treminte as someone that has lost baby i could not do it to bitch

The huge difference is you would not give birth to ten babies all at once (and ten or more pups is a very real possibility with a cross between two large breeds -any idea what the sire is?), and you would not have to find good homes for babies. (Not to mention the bitch wouldn't KNOW she'd had a pregnancy terminated! But like I said before, I think she is too far gone for that to be an option now.)

I have been through it, accidental litter of ten (no Alizin back then). It was very hard work, of course, and very expensive -because I sold the pups as accidental crossbreeds, not as designer crosses. (Not saying you would try that, just explaining.) I ended up having to keep 2 pups as I couldn't home them all. If you're going to rear them all  you will have to be prepared to keep pups, which will mean a lot of work (littermates are a nightmare) and of course you will have to be extremely careful in picking buyers. Have you thought of what you'd do if you were stuck with say 8 pups that nobody wanted? This is something you MUST address instantly.

milly has been nesting and panting a lot she has gone very quiet have spoken to friend she recons ill have pups in next 24hrs,my husband i have have spoken and gone throw pro and cons if its 3 pups we will keep them all or we will try and get homes but all am thinking about at mo is getting milly throw birth and her and pups are ok,my friend has said once i see bag and puppy come to fone her and she will take me throw it

Have you got a whelping box of some sort, even if it's only temporary, and have you got a quiet area away from other dogs? That's your first step. You'll need lots and lots of newspaper and also towels for the birth. You need to stay with her now at all times, and don't let her outside alone, go with her with a torch.

got towels,sterilised scissors just incase got tons newspapers no not got box but made big big bed my friends giving me crate picking ot up tomm i have milly in the livivng room with me,hector been put in kitchen,got couple cats in with me they are keeping out her way am really worried and hope she is ok,iv foaled 10 foals thought i would be ok but worried ,my friend bred dogs she said try not to worry shes call away

So far so good -good luck. A crate won't be any good for big newborn pups though -difficult to clean out, difficult to reach inside it, not very warm or draught free or private for the bitch, and it will not stop pups from being crushed to death by the mum, you do need a box with pigrails in. Get your hubby to get some chipboard and broom handles and knock one together -we always do it this way then burn it after a few weeks. Guessing at the size of your bitch probably something like 4' x 3' and around 18 inches high.

Turn a table up side down and wrap blankets around the base to stop pups rolling out.

Use old bath towels to line the base to soak up fluids and give grip. News papers are too slippery for suckling newborns. Towels can always be boiled up the next day.

After whelping cover the entire thing with a sheet.... she will need seclusion and peace.

Just wanted to second what's been said already, she needs peace and quiet. Remove the cats and create her a covered dark corner, the table idea is a good one, but you say you've already made her a big bed, if you put that under a table and then hang a sheet over the lot she will feel much more private. Don't let other people in the room unless she's really relaxed around them. Especially with such a immature bitch its very important for her mothering them that she doesn't feel insecure at all. Don't rush to take the pups from her and dry them, if she's cleared the sack away and they're breathing then let her clean them herself. I can't remember how long you said you've had her but it can only be a few weeks max so she wont be as relaxed around you yet as a bitch you've owned for years.
also agree with other poster, newspaper is no good for newborns, they can't get any grip with their feet. do you have vet bed? Or a really big towel/s you can put over the newspaper if you have to. shavings are pretty absorbent if you've got them for the horses and there's nothing else.
Good Luck!!

As you haven't been able to do the normal pre whelp care such as puppy food and daily worming you will have to be careful post whelp, daily worming with Panacur 10% can go on for 2 days post whelp asnd be done when pups are wormed at 2,5 and 8 weeks old.

Give her calcium rich foods such as cottage cheese, yoghurt and goats milk to prevent eclampsia and good quality puppy food up to 6 times her normal amount to keep her body in the best condition as the pups will take a lot from her.

Keep us posted.

milly had a little boy at 1.14am it was breech so had to help her ,the puppy is very strong suckled straight away milly brill mummy to her son she licked him and very protetive,she deliverd dalak on sofa she would not stay in her bed,now she has had him they are both sleeping in bed

will keep u all posted

Congrats on the new arrival.

Are there any more there?

Congrats to you and Mum.

I'm afraid I don't have the knowledge to provide much in the way of help but I just wanted to wish you and your girl all the luck in the world for an easy whelp, you've come to the best place for advice and support, these guys are great.

Looking forward to hearing how it's all gone -bet you've had a long night.

As you saw puppy movements I would be shocked if there was just one puppy, so if there haven't been any more a trip to the vets will be essential (I am hoping no more posts are due to you being busy).

As for the whelping location, usually once at least one pup has been born you can move the pup to the area you want them in and she will stay there because of the puppy.

its just one pup,he is so so sweet hubby got shock when he came in from work at 3am hes never seen new born anaiaml before,milly brill mum i moved her to massive x large dog cage i got from friend her and dalak are settled dalek moves round alot he has been suckiling a lot only thing is i cnt get milly out for pee she just wants to stay with dalek

Is your vet happy that is all there is, just one seems odd if you saw movement that she only had the one but a bit of luck if it is. Still means time off work and extra feeding but it could have been so very much worse.

You will need to put a lead on her to get her to go out for a pee otherwise she could end up with a UTI, or more likely she will finally have to go and have an accident.

In my experience a good Mum won't be willing to leave the whelping area at all for the first three days and I get them out on lead, then let them run back to the pups.  Don't let her wear her collar in her whelping area.

You have discovered the disadvantages of using a crate with whelping, lack of ease of access ;).

As I said before, ti would be pretty unusual in a medium/large breed bitch to see puppy movement with just one puppy, and I think she needs to be checked by the vet in case there are more pups and she is suffering from secondary inertia.

moved her to massive x large dog cage i got from friend

The danger is you have no pigrails and the pup could be squashed, you have to make sure she is watched 24 hours a day.

I would also have expected a lot more pups as you saw them move.

Ditto Brainless, I'm extremely surprised after you seeing movement that she has just had the one pup, can you ask your vet to do a house call if it is the worry of taking her to the vet once settled? It's not worth your bitches life, I'd always be safe rather than sorry, the whole thing has just happened so quickly with no prep a final check over from the vet is the least she deserves. :-)

I agree with the others, worth having a vet check, perhaps an oxytocin injection to make sure she is finished even? Hope for your sake it is just the one, if it had been the large litter as feared it would have been best to have most pts but I can't begin to imagine how hard it must be to do that. Also as others have said you will need to insist she goes out for pee. :-)

What a nightmare!! Had this happen to client of mine they had had a dog 3 weeks (I hadn't seen her) they came down stairs to find 7 puppies and mum one morning!! I still wonder if they all got breakfast that day!! All puppies were found new homes and they kept a pup themselves.

Lucky for them it all turned out well could have gone the other way.

I would get your bitch checked out as a single pup is most definitely not the norm, needs checking out for safety but good luck with it all and get her spayed when it's all over with and the times right, one shock is enough for one lifetime!!

I've been following this thread, got nothing to add as I have absolutely no experience of dog breeding, just wondering if there were any updates? Taking the lack of updates as a good sign as I assume you're very busy with pup (Hopefully pupS by the sound of it.)