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Ebbie is a solid black, she was mated with an orange and white - not my first choice but she didn't want to know the black and tan, she comes from a long line of golds and black/tans, it's only her and her mum that are solid black. The sire is from orange roans and blue roans, so i was expecting all sorts of colours, they are more or less solid gold, but all have some white flashes and some white on chest, so not sure if they are solids with flashes or orange/gold and whites. Whatever they are they are all gorgeous, I have the choice of two girls - makes it a bit easier - would of been well stuck if she had more and some black/tans.

I know i've still got sleepless nights ahead of me, but she is coping extremely well on her own, can't wait for them all to be running around.

Thanx again folks.

Nikki xxxx

Oops forgot to say - piccies are in me digital camera - and as i have just got new pc - got to install program and upload them, once i have - send me emails addys and i will send them to u all.

Nikki xx

Congratulations, hope all continues happily. I have 6 week old pups and at last have a bitch puppy to keep out of this bitch - I thought I'd never get one as this is her third litter. So I know how chuffed you feel. PS the spare one was booked long ago so I'm not advertising!

If the babies are mainly gold with white flashes, then they would be classed as solids - you do get more white markings if you mate a solid to a particolour which is why it isn't done so often these days. I think you were planning on having a go at showing -if so your choice might be made even easier as you'll need to go for the one with as little in the way of white markings as poss (solids only being allowed a small flash of white on the chest) Still getting ahead of things really, plenty of time for thinking about all that in a few weeks time :-)

Thanx Jane,

Yes I was going to think about showing and yes i know they are only allowed some white on chest with solid cockers, that's why i didn't with ebbie, she had some white on chest, chin and under one of her rear legs, it's only a few hairs in each place, but chin is quite visible. The pups have very white chests, all of them, the boy and one of the girls has a white flash from nose to forehead, the boy has another very small white patch on back of neck and one girl has a tiny spot on back of neck, the other girl (the one i think i might keep but it's early days) is lighter than other 2 but has a lot of white fur on front, i think i'll have to register these as orange and white like their dad - who was almost solid gold, but had a white sort of collar, as i only know what was required with solids - would the fact that they are mostly gold go against them if they were registered as particolours?

Nikki xx

Hi Nikki

If pups are predominately solid gold with just a few white markings, then depending on how much white there is, they would probably be regarded as "mismarked solids" in the show ring I'm afraid, no matter what they are registered as. Trouble is the UK breed standard doesn't define what a particolour is (though the US standard for English Cockers is much more explicit) however, in practice, a solid gold with white on the chest, maybe white feet or small white markings elsewhere etc is not looked on as a particolour. Of course, markings make no difference to a pet or Working Cocker, but it does for a show Cocker I'm afraid. Later, I would contact your stud dog owner for advice & maybe ask her to come & see the pups - she is a very experienced breeder & is one of the few who still does mixed particolour/solid breeding, although the Cockers she shows are either clearly solids or clearly particolours - no "inbetweens" that I can remember. She'll be able to say whether the markings on your pups rule them out for showing & what you should register them as.

Thank u Jane, I will contact the sire's breeder, I know she is very experienced, i was just waiting until the pups were 2 weeks old before i rang and told her - just in case!!! Obviously they are only 2 days old, so who knows, but i think they would probably be mismarked solids, would it still be worth my while getting into showing - wasn't really expecting to win anything anyways just interested that is all, but if they had no chance at all and as i don't drive etc would they be wasted journeys?? If u catch my drift. The very light little girl - has a white chest, the other thing is I'm not having them docked, Ebbie is docked and I don't have anything against it really - except these are my babies and not sure i can have it done to them - well I know that i can't have it done, it does say on breed standards now that tails are accepted - but do judges??? I should start another thread really - this is going off topic - so if admin split it then - thank u and sorry.

Nikki xxx

I have a solid black cocker who is too small (according to the breed standard) so we don't show her anymore. It's a shame as she meets the breed standard in everyother way and is a beautiful dog but it would be a complete waste of my time and the judges time to enter her in serious shows (champs shows).

We made the decision to end her show career as she doesn't travel well and is often sick so it's just not worth putting her through it all.

It's of course up to you if you want to show your pup or not but bear in mind you won't get anywhere with a judge who knows the breed standard - it'll still be good fun though and you'll learn alot about how the show circuit works which will be useful if you want to get another dog in a few years time and show him/her.

Fiona
x x x

So....from all this - on the colour side at least - what i can gather is - the one with the most white would be the better choice especially if considered a particolour rather than solid for showing purposes. Obviously would all be irrelevant if the pups aren't breed standard size - Ebbie is about well not even half an inch under size - which is why i wanted solid sire with a good average breed standard size - unfortunately ebbie had different ideas and wanted the particolour - still good on the size though, so i should keep my fingers crossed and hope one of the bitches meets size and colouring. If not and I am getting way ahead of myself here - just metaphorically though - if the bitch i kept met all breed standards apart from colouring, would/could i then mate her with another solid and hope to get solid pups with less markings, or should i sell all these pups, wait a year and try again with a solid sire with ebbie and hope for the best (these are hypothetical questions - I'm gonna keep one of these bitches - whatever - which one yet i don't know)

Nikki xxx

Pass!!!!! :D :D :D

I don't understand the genetic side of breeding (which is why I don't do it) and I don't really understand showing - only what I've learnt from other people.

Sorry I can't help but I'm sure that JaneS will be able to help you more.

Fiona
x x x

Hi Nikki

As JaneS has said if the pups are going to be registered as Solids the best one to keep would be the one with only a little patch of white on his/her chest. Unfortunately white patches anywhere else on a predominately gold/black dog are classed as a mismark and will always get penalised at Shows. I think the Stud Dog owner will be the best one to advise you on this.

HTH

Dessie

If you were serious about showing and breeding wouldnt you want to start with a good colour gene pool - ie. one that is less likely to throw mismarks?? If you start with a solid from good lines and you mate it to another dog with similar breeding wouldnt it be better than to breed mismarks after mismarks because you are starting with inferior to begin with...

I hope you dont think i'm being horrible I'm not - its just it makes no sense to me as I've seen breeders with mismarked bitches breeding time and time again hoping and praying for that 'perfect' colour and consistently getting mismarks...

In years past, solids & partis were mated together but gradually this practice died out among show breeders (one of the reasons being the possibility of mismarks when this type of breeding is carried out) Some breeders do still mix the colours - your stud dog owner is one as she specialises in some of the rarer colours. If you are really interested in getting into the showing side of things, then you are probably going to be limited to fun Exemption shows if the puppy you keep has anything more than a small area of white on her chest. From what you have said, I don't think your pups will be seen as particolours, sorry. The decision of whether to dock the tails or not is a personal one for you to make (though sounds like you have already made it) Undocked Cockers are occasionally seen in the show ring & a good one will win under a fair judge. Some judges are going to be biased against undocked dogs but most will judge the whole dog not just it's tail & many Cocker judges are used to judging undocked dogs when they judge abroad anyway. I'm not saying it's easy to show an undocked Cocker at the moment, though it may get easier in future - who knows?

If the puppy you keep does have too much white for showing purposes, then looking ahead you would be thinking about using a solid stud dog on her that has no particolour breeding in his pedigree, as well as considering the other vital things like type, temperament, health-screening results. Using such a dog would minimise the chance of mismarkings - you would probably get totally solid pups with maybe the odd tiny white chest marking. Similarly, if you decide not to keep one of these pups, then you could mate Ebbie in a year or so's time to a dominant solid stud dog (no particolour breeding) & hopefully get a solid litter with no bad markings. Size I would regard as less of an issue - there have been many top winners either just below the standard height or just above it. The standard does say "approximately" in relation to the desired height which allows a bit of leeway & I would not penalise an otherwise excellent Cocker if it was just a little smaller or bigger than ideal.

It all depends on what your aims are in breeding Nicki :D Getting into showing & breeding Cockers seriously is a totally absorbing hobby - there is so much to learn & lots of fun to be had along the way, as well as a few heartbreaks when things don't go to plan, but that's breeding for you :-)

Thank u very much Jane, you have confirmed everything I thought, I originally wanted to continue Ebbies line which incidentally is more or less all dogs/bitches from my stud dog owner, which is why i went to her - she would know and advise which ones were best for ebbie. I didn't want to get into showing or breeding (apart from continuing her line) but the more i come on here the more i learn and the more i'm getting interested in it. I don't think i could of bred this litter and give all of them away, even though they weren't quite what i wanted, the little girl with the least markings is obviously the closest to a solid gold and will probably be the one i keep, although saying that the other little girlie is already quite a character.

I'm mad really - i know what i want - a solid black, solid gold and black/tan, any order, i'm not really into the particolours as such but knew that there was half a chance with the stud dog we ended up using, if we hadn't of bred at that age we might never of got into it, she's 2 years and 7 months now, she has 6/9 months between seasons.

The more i look at the pups - the more i think they are orange and white - top half is all gold, underneath is almost all white, I will ring the stud dog owner and get her advise on this though before i register them as anything!! The stud (i wasn't there but ex was) was all gold apart from a white line around neck according to ex but classed as orange and white. See how my brain is working now and all thanks to champdogs.

I have now got my pics uploaded so if anyone wants to see then feel free to email me and i will send them asap.

Nikki xxx

Hi

I am new here, but after reading about your puppies I would like to share some of my experience with parti/solid mating. Although I don't do it myself, it is a very common thing to do in Norway, where I live, and I have seen many litters from solid/parti mating. Some of the solid puppies have had white feet, white nose, lots of white on the rest of the head,and all white front. But even so, some of them have grown up to be show champion as adult! In my experience, if the white turns into roan, when the puppies are a couple of weeks old, then it is most likely, that they be OK, as adult, however if the white is still white, when the puppies are 8 weeks, then it is likely that it stays like that. Ofcourse, it is easiest with white on the red one, since the white there is not so outstanding as on a black one, and the lighter the colur of red is, the better it is.

Enjoy your litter! I also have a litter and my problem now is to decide who to keep, with 4 girls, where 3 of them looks so fare, really good, it is not an easy decision, but thanksfully I still have some more weeks before I have to make up my mind......and who said that I only have to keep one :-)

Nina

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Hi Nina

Nice to see you here :-) I've trimmed quite a few pet Cockers from mixed-colour matings & sometimes the white markings aren't immediately noticeable but when you trim them, you can see them quite easily - particularly the little white feet :-) Agree they are less noticeable on the golds but Nikki's pups are a rich, deep colour -not pale at all so I would be surprised if the white disappears, but you never know :-)

Jane

But saying that - and i'm gonna email u as well Jane - the sire's parents - both of them were orange roans - so maybe the roan will come out in the white?? I know that the roan sometimes takes a time to show up, how long does it take?

Nikki xx

Hi all, my cocker (although of the working 'class oik' variety) was liver and white when we bought him as a pup and on his kc reg was liver and white. within a year he turned into a liver roan, loads and loads of marking came out as he matured. Its looks like he is a different puppy when you look back at his puppy pics now! On another coat issue, as you know working cockers have less feathering and coat to show lines, and Mauser has always had little feathering and quite a short coat, apart from the liver patches which have always been longer ! until this winter, when he has suddenly grown this long showy type coat, with flowing feathering??? He is now coming up to three, and was neutured at about 10 months old, and his coat didnt change in texture at all, in fact his coat is really really soft and silky and straight, soft like puppy down? why would he suddenly have grown this big coat? Julie:)

ps he does look like a cocker who has stolen a springers' clothes!

opps edit - I forgot the purpose of posting - although different I know with working cockers - Mum was solid liver (or chocolate depends what you prefer to call it) and Dad was Blue roan. See what happens when you start to ramble - you lose yourself:D

A Working Cocker with a showy coat - I can see Working Cocker breeders throwing their hands up in horror :D Seriously, I would think there is a connection with your chap being neutered & his now glamorous coat, even though he was neutered quite a long time ago. Coat changes happen much more slowly with Cockers that have a non-trim shortish coat to begin with but they do still happen in my experience.

Jane

PS Coat colour genetics are the same in Working Cockers as in the show-type, it's just that Working Cocker breeders don't breed for colour so there has been no separation into solids & particolours as there has been in the show Cocker.

thanks for the info Jane! Guess I'll just have to start hand stripping him now:) I know that colour is the least important thing in working cockers, that said, however the very popular solid liver (or choc) at the mo. seems to be spurring a bit of interest in breeding for this colour:( Julie:)

I have a friend with show & working Cockers...from what she's told me, Working Cockers get mated regardless of colour as she plans to mate her b & w bitch and a blue roan bitch (On breeding terms) to a lemon & white dog. Workers are bred for their working ability and not their conformation.

She also told me that in show Cockers, solid to solid and partic-colour/roan to parti colour/roan.

Hi Nikki

You can usually tell by 3 weeks old in the darker colours whether any roan is coming through, often earlier than that. With orange particolours (which tend to be pale when v young), it's less easy to tell but your pups aren't pale so hopefully you will be able to tell by 3 weeks or so. It's just going to be wait & see for a while :-) If both parents of the stud dog were orange roans, then he should be a particolour too as two partis cannot produce a solid, but his markings sound v unusual for a particolour - most intriguing :-) Was he shown do you know Nikki? Maybe I have a photo of him somewhere if he was.

Jane

I would imagine that the roaning on orange roan can take a while to show. this is the case in tortoiseshell English spotted rabbits, where the spots visible in the other colours ta birth can take ages to show. In dogs the orange belton in English Setters also taske a time to chow markings clearly!

Be interesting ow they look in a cople of weeks.

Hi Jane

Yes, it is sure that it would be more visible if the puppies are red or dark red. Most of our red cockers are very pale, but I also know that some only show them at the winter season, or should I say at indoors show, where the light is normaly not so good, so the white (in most chases on the nose) will not stand out so much. A few English judges, who is also Cocker breeders, have made some comments about too much white or blue roan front on black cockers, but most seems to ignore it, as long as the rest of the dog is of a good type. Or as somebody said, too much white is a fault, but so is also a thick, curly coat, and you see alot of them.
Personally I am not a fan of mixing parti/solid, but as long as it is done for a very good reason, I will accept it.

Nina

<Personally I am not a fan of mixing parti/solid, but as long as it is done for a very good reason, I will accept it.>

I agree :-) I think bad markings are often faulted by judges because they are easy to see - same as with imperfect teeth, even a novice judge can spot these "faults" whereas things like very straight shoulders or poor movement seem to be ignored by some judges, although I consider these to be far worse than a white marking in the wrong place or a crooked tooth :D