Is there a bone shortage?only joking,but landywoods didnt have any on my last order,ive had trouble getting them from local butchers"try wednesday,dear",and finally tracked down two!they give them away so i dont like to be cheeky and ask for bucket loads to freeze against a shortage!Seriously,id rather pay for them and get as many as i need!what do you other raw feeders do?are there any other landywood type suppliers i could buy them from?or what could i buy from an actual butcher,with gnawing value that you wouldnt need to take out a second mortgage for?(vegetarian,not that familiar with cuts of meat)THey have chicken wings and necks,and portions, but i like them to have ribs or something worhwhile to chew on as well,.Grateful for any pointers!

Don't know where you are located but halal butchers are often a good source. They have to pay to get bones taken for disposal so are usually happy to give you as many as you want! They also don't often get asked for bones as most of their customers don't have dogs. Last time I asked, when I was living in a place with halal butchers, I was given two sections of goat ribs, loads of chicken carcases with the wings still attached and a bag of lamb leg bones.

Ribs are good - lamb, beef, pork, as well as beef and lamb spine, lamb legs etc. Obviously you will probably only get lamb, goat and chicken in a halal butchers, possibly also beef. For gnawing, a beef knuckle bone is ideal.

Do you have any farmer's markets held nearby? These are often a useful source of organic beef & lamb bones.

I have my butcher well trained now and he has a big bag of bones waiting for me every Thursday, I seem to be the only person who gets bones regularly there so I can get loads, I also buy lamb hearts, lung and tongue from them so they're more amenable to saving me all the lamb bones.
Try DAF, they do beef, lamb and venison bones, also duck necks which are very long, I also came across a raw food site that sells half sheep heads for very cheap, although being a vegetarian that's possibly a bit too gory ?
The sheep head is from Natural Instinct and cost's £2.50

We get bones by the sackload from a local butcher. He charges other dog owners a quid a bone but as we have so many we get them thrown in for nothing with the meat we get off him.

Thanks everyone,maybe id better have a nice long talk with my local butcher to see if he can provide useful stuff,dont mind paying!The nearest halal butcher is in notts,an hours busride away,but a good idea,thanks!,Will have a look at daf too,bless you all!

I use a few different butchers, most of them charge but the money goes in the charity box. 

Dont Halal butchers kill their animals in a horrific way, or am I totally on the wrong track there ?

In general Halal butchers slit the animals throat while it's still concious and say some sort of prayer over it, although I believe some halal slaughter houses are now stunning the animals first, the animals are slaughtered in a closed room so the other animals don't see what's going on, although I'm sure, as with most slaughter methods, they know what's going on.

Thats funny albion have just told m ethey arnt getting any atm how weird where are they all going then ?
Just had alook at natural instinct who have some good options for bones including sheeps head. However according to their caculations I would have to pay £100 in p and p cant work out how much the bones weigh very odd

> In general Halal butchers slit the animals throat while it's still concious and say some sort of prayer over it, although I believe some halal slaughter houses are now stunning the animals first, the animals are slaughtered in a closed room so the other animals don't see what's going on, although I'm sure, as with most slaughter methods, they know what's going on.

I've also heard that almost all chickens in the UK are now killed with a halal-compliant method. I've read a lot of posts about for and against... but at the end of the day it's still killed;, I'm more concerned about how it has lived beforehand. At least the halal slaughter has a razor sharp knife, is very quick and yes, it is done away from the other animals, and a prayer of any kind said before killing them shows respect, which is more than can be said for some non-halal slaughterhouses.

PS: furriefriends, I am due an Albion delivery tomorrow, is it the big bones they are short of, are they ok for chicken necks and wings?

>at the end of the day it's still killed;

So are the dogs in the Far East ...

>and a prayer of any kind said before killing them shows respect,

But does it make any difference to what and how the animal feels about the process, I wonder. Somehow I doubt it.

>at the end of the day it's still killed;

So are the dogs in the Far East ...

You're not suggesting halal butchers slaughter dogs, are you? According to the Qur'an all dogs (apart from the saluki) are regarded as unclean. No Muslim would eat them.

> But does it make any difference to what and how the animal feels about the process, I wonder. Somehow I doubt it.

I'm not sure, while it wouldn't matter to me if the person who cut my throat said a prayer or not, I think in general having a respect for the animals you are about to slaughter is a good thing, and would presumably lead to better handling from the moment they arrived on the slaughterhouse premises. Also killing the animals in a separate room from the ones waiting is (imo) much kinder.

Its the big beef bones necks and wings are fine

>You're not suggesting halal butchers slaughter dogs, are you?

No of course not, you misunderstand my point. There are many methods of slaughtering animals but some are more humane than others. To suggest that the method doesn't matter because "at the end of the day it's still killed" is IMO condoning cruel practices.

Sorry Jeangenie, I thought not but the trail of the earlier posts had me confused as to where the discussion was leading. I fully agree that the method does matter, but I think facing the ethical issue--the acknowledgement that we have no automatic right to take a life for sport or even just to feed ourselves-- is bound up in the choice of methods we permit ourselves to use. I was following a link on snowgeese the other day and without warning found myself on a website that showed literally a rain of death, dozens of these beautiful birds crashing out of the sky. The grinning barbarians that shot them (and many of them were only winged) didn't look as though they recognised anyone's right to life but their own.

>I fully agree that the method does matter,

That's why I won't knowingly (I say knowingly because a lot of unmarked halal and kosher meat enters the 'regular' supplies) buy halal or kosher meat for us or my animals. 'Secular' abattoirs aren't allowed to use those methods because of the welfare implications, and I don't know why the laws on animal cruelty can be circumvented in this way.

But that's a rant for another thread because it's way off-topic for this one!

'Secular' abattoirs aren't allowed to use those methods

But the reality is that they do, and worse. Animal Aid have exposed just how meaningful so-called regulation of abbatoirs is--this was nothing to do with kosher, halal or secular practice and everything to do with plain human cruelty, ignorance and the inability to value any life other than our own. See  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/08/secret-abattoir-video-animal-abuse

Sorry for going off topic everyone :-(

>>'Secular' abattoirs aren't allowed to use those methods
>But the reality is that they do, and worse.

And when they're discovered legal action can and should be taken. However those same practices are permitted at religious abattoirs. It's this double standard that I find intolerable. If it's illegal at one abattoir it should be illegal at all.

No legal action was taken. Defra refused to prosecute despite being presented with video evidence of practices that aren't legal anywhere (kicking animals, stubbing cigarettes out on live animals and other acts of barbarism that have been graphically described elsewhere). They preferred to "discuss" the matter with the abbatoirs in question. So irrespective of what regulatory standard has been approved for kosher, halal and secular slaughterhouses, the proof is there that few if any are complying.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/news_slaughter/ALL/2525//

I think one of the biggest improvements that could be made in slaughter houses would be to stop the "piece meal " pay rate, this does not encourage slaughter men to do the job right in the first place. On the subject of chicken slaughter, I read in one of PETA's updates that most chickens in the UK were now gassed, this meant there was virtually no handling of the birds once they had been crammed into the transport crates as they were gassed whilst in the crate.

That link was horrific :-(  I wonder if it is inevitable that people who kill animals for a living, day in and day out, lose all respect and care for those animals? Of course if you objectify an animal then it probably becomes easy to torture it, it's simply an item.

I watched kill it, cook it, eat it and was reassured that animals didn't know they were going to be slaughtered and that it was as humane as it could be, that's certainly not the case in that footage.

It leaves me in a difficult position. I'm an animal lover, but also a realist. I'm a carnivore, I like meat and can't always afford the very best. I apply my own standards - i.e. I wouldn't eat anything other than UK veal. I only eat free range chickens and eggs and at the moment I'm buying all my beef and lamb from a local butchers who rear their own and I get venison from the local deer farm. After watching what geese and ducks go through I wouldn't buy anything with feathers in it and I don't buy fois gras. Is that enough though? I've no way of knowing how the locally reared sheep and cattle are slaughtered :-(

>I wonder if it is inevitable that people who kill animals for a living, day in and day out, lose all respect and care for those animals?

No. I know a few slaughtermen and, like vets, they take pride in their ability to be able to kill an animal quickly and painlessly.

I would think that the cruel ones are no more representative of the trade than the recently-shown videos of the abuse in care homes.

Can I just make a couple of points.

The slaughter of animals polarises people just as tail docking and hunting does, I am not here to defend or attack either methods.

However Halal meat is not JUST defined by the method of slaughter, it also determines what is halal "permitted" or haram "not permitted" to eat including, I may add, the way the animals are reared where the feeding of them with OTHER dead animals is strictly forbidden.

Hence during the BSE crisis for example, Halal meat was the safest to consume!

There are several other points too.

And I would also add for those who go on holiday in the Middle and Far East etc, do you abstain from meat eating altogether?  Because if you do not ALL the meat (in the relevant countries) will be halal slaughtered.

This of course applies also to processed foods such as biscuits etc.... ;)

> No. I know a few slaughtermen and, like vets, they take pride in their ability to be able to kill an animal quickly and painlessly.

Thanks JG, that is reassuring.

I would think that the cruel ones are no more representative of the trade than the recently-shown videos of the abuse in care homes.

How do we define representation? How much abuse is too much?

I've never worked in a care home, nor had a family member cared for by one, but I would be very cautious in making the assumption that the reason we so rarely hear about abuse is because it so rarely happens. Thinking about the courage it takes to be a whistleblower, never mind go in undercover to film what's happening, it's no wonder we hear so little.

The government may not be taking action in respect of the nine slaughterhouses that were filmed over a two year period, but the supermarkets have agreed to make CCTV mandatory in the hope that this will curb and/or expose those who break the law. I don't think the supermarkets are soft touches who are doing this for the sake of animals. They just want to be sure people will still want to buy the products they sell. The care homes are no different, but I don't know that there are powerful commercial interests calling for CCTV to be made mandatory.

>However Halal meat is not JUST defined by the method of slaughter, it also determines what is halal "permitted" or haram "not permitted" to eat

And only certain parts of the animal are permitted to be eaten which is why meat which has been slaughtered in halal methods is sold, unlabelled as such along with 'regular' meat.

>And I would also add for those who go on holiday in the Middle and Far East etc, do you abstain from meat eating altogether? 

Yes. I eat vegetarian where such practices are commonplace.

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/what_we_do/default.aspx Link to Compassion in World Farming, campaigning for a better life for farm animals and an end to live exports.

I've debated about going vegetarian again, part of the reason I don't is a chronic health problem and a part is because I believe me going vegetarian again may ease my concious but won't ultimately help farm animal welfare, what just might is making choices about the meat I buy, short of a global disaster the meat industry ain't going nowhere, the only thing we can do as consumers is change what's profitable for them.

> Defra refused to prosecute despite being presented with video evidence of practices that aren't legal anywhere

Defra couldn't prosecute. "Defra, under the coalition government, said that, unlike its Labour predecessor, it could not proceed because the evidence was obtained without the permission of the slaughterhouses." (from link in a previous post).

Defra have not been able to prosecute due to "unlawfully obtained video footage" (from link in a previous post), not because there were no cases of cruelty to answer to.

Evidence has to be legal to be of any value in court. Unlawfully obtained footage is great for exposing things, but no good for getting prosecutions.

There are over 350 slaughter houses in the UK. Does anybody know if the 9 filmed ones were picked at random (bearing in mind somebody had to tresspass to get the video in there), or have there been tip-offs about the 9 slughterhosues?
If the 9 filmed were randomly picked, then yes, it suggests a worrying trend, but if they were filmed due to tip-offs then it's a case of the few cruel scumbags being caught out.

then of course there are the livestock that do not make it to the slaughter houses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Zt9DT-eWY&feature=player_embedded

Defra couldn't prosecute. "Defra, under the coalition government, said that, unlike its Labour predecessor, it could not proceed because the evidence was obtained without the permission of the slaughterhouses." (from link in a previous post).

Seriously, mastifflover, would that activity ever have been uncovered in "legally obtained" footage? No slaughterhouse staff would indulge in completely illegal and barbaric cruelty if they know they were being filmed, surely. Covert filming is used by journalists all the time, not as the exclusive means of proving guilt or as a 'fishing' tactic, but as a powerful tool for uncovering corruption, cruelty and illegal practice and thank goodness for that.

> Seriously, mastifflover, would that activity ever have been uncovered in "legally obtained" footage? No slaughterhouse staff would indulge in completely illegal and barbaric cruelty if they know they were being filmed, surely. Covert filming is used by journalists all the time, not as the exclusive means of proving guilt or as a 'fishing' tactic, but as a powerful tool for uncovering corruption, cruelty and illegal practice and thank goodness for that.

What I said was a quote, not my opinion. I think there is a difference (as far as the law goes when it comes to allowable evidence), between secretely filming while you are in a place you have permission to be in and illegally gaining access to the place you are filming in.

I do agree that the people would be much less likely to be so cruel and incompetant if they knew they were being filmed - pity establihments that deal with the care of living beings (both human & animals) do not have CCTV fitted as compulsery, only those with something to hide would object.

I believe the person filming was employed on site, not a case of being there illegally. The supermarkets have since agreed that they will expect their slaughterhouses to be equipped with CCTV. Let's hope the same will apply to residential care homes.

Is there a bone shortage?only joking,but landywoods didnt have any on my last order,ive had trouble getting them from local butchers"try wednesday,dear"

so long as there is meat there will be bones! our butcher de bones on particular days, maybe that is why you were asked to go back wednesday! lol