Just a quickie, I'm on radio later tonight discussing the use of car harnesses and a change in law makingthem compulsory.

How do we all feel? I think an ex-eastenders actor has had an incident recently regarding his pug and a harness would have resolved the issue.But how about dogs in car boots we surely can't have those on harnesses as well? Surely that's a decent wait command?

Posted here as seems to get the most action on this board. Just interested in honest opinions as this is a chance to air them as I'm to be pro car harness.

Yes, I think dogs, if carried within the body of a car, should be secured as any other object of significant weight should, for the safety of driver and passengers if nothing else. 
It makes me cringe to see dogs on front seats, back shelves or worst of all perched on the back of the front seats knowing the risk they represent to all in the event of a collision let alone with heads sticking out windows for their own safety.  
I suppose within the boot area it is up to owners whether they wish to provide more security for the dogs sake but they do not then represent a danger to humans.

>But how about dogs in car boots we surely can't have those on harnesses as well?

Well it would increase the dogs safety but I don't think it should be compulsory and personally I prefer a box or crate to give the dog more freedom but I do recognise they will be likely to suffer more throwing about in an accident.

> Surely that's a decent wait command?

Not sure what you are saying there.
What station is this going to be on?

Having seen dogs chew through car harnesses (and seat belts!) in a matter of minutes I think making them compulsory would be an expensive disaster for many people.

Absolutely on the chewing point have a client who's dobiehad a part time hobbie of eating through seat belts, mainly due to his nerves at being in car so dealt with it. Bitter apple spray works wonders too!! But very valid point and not 1 I had even thought of!! Back to crating for the worst offenders possibly.

I mean for the wait command, it is part of my dogs training to wait when instructed patiently in the van until I release them, ie door opens and 4 collies don't come flying out until instructed, same at front door too! Same for me catching up with them on the beach, wait whilst I keep up!! Some of us only have 2 legs!!

Radio 5 live and I believe Beverley from dogs today will also be there with the opposing point of view but I have a feeling we will probably be meeting onthe middle ground.

> I prefer a box or crate to give the dog more freedom but I do recognise they will be likely to suffer more throwing about in an accident.
>

Daughter lost control of her little Citroen van some years ago and ended up up the bank with the van having turned over onto the roof and slid off the bank, down the road and back up the bank before stopping. Rott and Xbreed were in their crates in the back of the van. Rotts crate was a 'Harborn' make - not a mark, other crate was a lighter weight one and had an inward bulge in one side from a toolbox. Both dogs asked 'why are we standing on the roof' but both were completely uninjured and fine despite one half back door popping open. Daughter had bruises and a few scrapes from 'flying objects' and from her seat belt but luckily was also more or less Ok apart from shock.
we are sure that belts would have left the dogs with injuries from stuff flying round and no restraints would have had one or both thrown from vehicle with major injuries or dead.
Chris

> dobiehad a part time hobbie of eating through seat belts

OH used to be motor fitter, they had a car in for FIRST service..........with no seat belts, only frame remaining of rear seats and no interior trim in boot or half of back seat area..........culprit was totally untrained lab x

> I mean for the wait command, it is part of my dogs training to wait when instructed patiently in the van until I release them, ie door opens and 4 collies don't come flying out until instructed, same at front door too!

That's part of the test for Silver KCGC scheme, if you want to get something in about responsible training.

It is indeed part of the silver test which I think shouldbe standard for alldog owners or acombo of silver and bronze everyone should takeit every 12 months and thosethat have can have dog off lead in public. Those that don't no off lead!! But training as I doI know so many dogs who perform in the hall but not when out!! Though most have been elsewhere fortraining as pups and not to me!! They cometomewhen problem is deepseated.

Anyhows!! Anymore points of view stories etc am writing flash cards as I type!! Multitasking ace me ya know!! But don't ask me to make a brew as well!!

A good wait command doesn't prevent  a dog from being thrown around and causing damage to itself and the other occupants of the car in the event of an accident or even an emergency stop. I think it is a good idea that dogs should be restrained in cars but my personal choice is to have a crate in the boot of the car and would never through choice have my dogs on the seats. Apart from the copious amounts of hair and mud that would end up on the seats a seatbelt harness wouldn't stop a large dog from being able to distract the driver - my GR would be able to wash my ears for me from the back seat even if he was on the opposite side of the car from me.
My crate is divided so I can separate the two dogs - not sure I would want two dogs to be sat next to each other on the seat just in case they fell out with each other and a harness would not prevent them from reaching each other :-) My dogs don't tend to fall out over much at all but I certainly wouldn't like to be driving if they decided to have a spat on the back seat - dangerous for all.

I have a custom built crate fitted in the boot area and feel it is the safest option for my particular circumstances. I would also be vary wary of having a chewing puppy on my back seat :-)

I would imagine that any change in the law is to protect the people in the car rather than the dogs?

If that's the case then anything that stops the dog acting as a missile when thrown forward is desirable: be that a harness fixed to a seat belt OR a dog guard/crate for dogs travelling in the boot.  I'm in favour of both these options (although I want the freedom to choose which option for the benefit of the people and dogs!) and would be happy to see all necessary equipment crash tested and kite marked.

I'd like to see some elements of car training/manners/owner education brought into the foundation and Bronze KC Good Citizens courses as many pet owners never go further.  I've done the necessary bits on the Silver course but I think it's a shame to leave it that long.  It should be included on the question elements too :)

> I'd like to see some elements of car training/manners/owner education brought into the foundation and Bronze KC Good Citizens courses as many pet owners never go further.

Good point, especially as most dog owners have cars.
That caused me a bit of trouble in the Silver, as I don't have a car, so I didn't drive to the test and had to borrow the trainer's car (after she'd moved the baby seats out). For an 11mth puppy who had rarely travelled in cars, but was already an old hand on buses and trains (where Wait! and Steady! is probably more used) I was amazed when he passed with flying colours, in an unfamiliar car to boot.

Well it is already law about being distracted! ;)

Personally I do not want to be forced to use car harnesses.  Trevor Turner the vet recently wrote in his column that in all his years as a vet he had seen no injuries from dogs in crates but plenty of them in dogs in harnesses.

As there is no BSi/EN/ISO standard for dog safety harnesses yet, and no crash test dummy dogs have been used for experimentation I would not use them.

This argument of course also extends to car crates, but I believe (as a H & S professional) these are safer for dogs, drivers, passengers and other road users.

A harness and seat belt only serves to prevent (hopefully) the dog actually leaving the vehicle, not protect it from injury at the moment.

For those of us who travel 30 - 40k miles per annum, seat belts are not really an option........... it does not protect the car from being destroyed, nor enable the dogs to relax and sleep  regularly  overnight etc.

Don't think I explained myself very well.The incident which has sparked this was caused by the dog dashing out of the car when he opened the door and it got run over. So in that case a wait command would have worked or a car harness.

I take the points aboutcrates being safer, myself I wonder about the stability of the dog on a seat harness or no. I have dealt with broken legs that have slipped down between seat and handbrake at clinic. Good point about the lack of safety testing on harnesses, will bring that up. Think the point of harnesses is to prevent dog being a missile really on emergency stops and prevent too much boisterous behaviour. BUt what about barking? That can be extremely distracting at least a crate you can cover and dampen the sound even if ever so slightly.

Keep it coming taxi not here till 11.30 tonight, programis 12.15 getting bit nervous now, but have done it before few years back for GMR 

So the issue in this particular case was not the absence or presence of either a crate or a harness, it was the issue of failure of control over dogs.

If the issue is THIS then the dog could just be left with a lead on or the lead trapped in the door which many people do so this cannot happen.

If you are going to be prescriptive on the use of car harnesses there are other things to consider too.

Eg you must either disable the front passenger seat airbag or seat the dog in the back seats.

Car Seat belts are not practical for those dog owners who have children or other passengers and thus have to have dog in boot area,

If the dog is in a boot, why put a harness on?

Why not a crate or dog guard and tail gate?

And, who is going to police this, as drivers still drive with no licence, insurance or MOT; whilst under the influence and of course if I had a £ for every driver I pass using a hand held phone whilst driving down the motorway I would be a very rich woman!

In addition, who is going to ensure the correct fitting of these (as in baby seats); what happens when litigation occurs due to poor or no advice and no safety standards?

Think these are allto be discussed.I certainly thinkthey haven't given it a lot of forethought and the actor has the RAC involved and wants people to sign petition(online) to enable it to be discussed in parliment.

Policing issue is main objection for me but there are a lot of laws that are difficult to police, mobile phones the biggest contender I think!

What I would really like is to see numbers on how many accidents/deaths are caused each year by loose dogs in cars.

If it's being done to protect dogs then I haveno issues with it, provided all apsects have been checked out, that harnesses are of a fit standard, can be easily fitted by owners, used only in back seats and for boots that dog guards are used as surely harnesses are not needed here.

The problem with boots isthat even if a crate is usedsomedogs will still manage to get past owners as they fiddle with leads etc so that boils down to a training issue.

I suspect this law will get passed but not too soon, knowing this country.

Do the RAC have a vested interest here? as I have seen RAC-brand car harnesses on sale.

The main issue I have with car harnesses is that they are made to click into the seatbelt dock - and a dog just trying to get more comfortable can accidentally step on the red button.

If they were to be made a legal requirement (as in, seat belts OR crates etc) I would need to see a better design, and affordable to all.

What happens if you have to put a dog in a car in an emergency, and don't have a seatbelt or crate or guard?

What about me, I don't have a car, would I have to carry a legal seatbelt around with me all the time JUST IN CASE someone offered me a lift home?

What about Taxis/Minicabs - reluctant to take dogs at the best of times - well that's yet another reason for them to refuse to take a dog.... or charge extra.

What would the implications be for assistance dogs? They would be just as much of a danger loose in a car in the event of an accident but you can't expect every blind/deaf/disabled person to carry a harness around with them.

Oh yeah and just one more (sorry!) if this was made legal would public transport suddenly feel they are better off not allowing dogs (for whatever reason?).

> So in that case a wait command would have worked 

I think it would be safer to say might have worked. 
It's not something I would like to rely on. 
It's much easier to control a dog coming out of a crate door than a vehicle door or hatch or one secured in a harness of course.

Well done, caught most of it (with gaps as streaming on mobile) but it all sounded good! Bit sorry for Beverley though whose surname was somewhat impolitely pronounced...!

Thank you. Think it went well it seems we both agreed in the end!! Which is how it should be regarding basic dog safety.

Still think there's lots to iron out such as safety levels etc but we are lagging behind europe on this so expect changes.

Thanks for everyones input sorry I didn't get chance to express a lot of it, but I may get called back regarding it and apparently its defo going on the oneshow,the interview that is with a few head shots of yours truly. Which is a shame as I don't get my hair done till next Monday!! But given a second chance I will raise as much as I can in the time given.

I know its all done and dusted re the radio show but wanted to add on at the end re The Highway Code:

When in a vehicle make sure dogs or other animals are suitably restrained so they cannot distract you while you are driving or injure you, or themselves, if you stop quickly. A seat belt harness, pet carrier, dog cage or dog guard are ways of restraining animals in cars.

thanks it was mentioned don't worry.

Think it might be going out on Friday as the one show is about dogs on friday will keep you posted if they get back to me.