Hi,

I am new to all of this. But we have a girl dog who we desperately want to have puppies from.

She is on day 13 of her 4 th season and the boy dog is trying and sometimes (excuse the saying) gets in but she isnt tieing him (I think that is the terminology). Any ideas why this is?? She is standing very well and definately up for it!!! the boy dog has mated two other dogs before so he should know what he is doing.

And...... I dont want a lecture as someone did before as to why we want puppies from her!!!! Im a nurse so Im sure I have the knowledge to deal with puppies!! And we only want 1 puppy to keep back as we have lover her so much and want another one. As for the others in the litter we plan to give them to family (yes there are lots of the family members who also want puppies, as they also love our dog to pieces, so I cant see any problems with finding homes).

We are just gutted as we told the kids what our plans are :(

So.....why dont dogs tie in a mating??

Thanks :)

What research have you done into mating and also are both the bitch and dog health tested ?

What help has the stud owner given you as if he is an 'experienced' stud then would assume they are ?

Also just because you are a nurse is not a given that you will know what to do if things go wrong. It may help but do not presume without lots of reading and talking to other breeders you are going to be fully prepared :-)

Im a nurse so Im sure I have the knowledge to deal with puppies!!

Much as it sometimes would come in handy, people aren't usually hip scored, eye tested, DNA tested, elbow scored, heart scanned, MRI scanned etc before being bred from.........there's SO much more to breeding  a litter than just rearing the pups; that's the easy part.

> yes there are lots of the family members who also want puppies

Sometimes family members say this to compliment you on your dog but it would really be rather odd that so many family members want a dog and have space in their lives/homes all at the same time.  Have you taken a deposit? :)
Seriously, have you read this

Yes both are health tested. It isnt a stud dog but a family pet (who happens to be proven). (from my husbands family).

And as I though a lecture on why not to do it!!

What I failed to say is that we have had puppies in the past before the kids were born so we do actually know what is involved in having puppies - Im just not an expert on the mating bit.

Why do people always tell you not to have puppies? Is it because they become competition? Havent ALL breeders had to start somewhere? And why should everyone who wants a puppy go out and spend £800 on a puppy when I could get one for a lot less by breeding my girl?? Same with my family members?

Dont mean to be rude but no one has explained the poss reasons why this is happening just given me the dont do it lecture!

So are you saying if we want another dog to go and line someone elses pocket with £800 and buy one? Im not even planning on selling my puppies so is that also wrong??

I have paid for the health tests, she is KC and been checked by the vet before hand so we have done what we need first.......

so why not???

>Why do people always tell you not to have puppies?

Because there's currently a crisis in over-population of dogs. Many highle reputable breeders have put their breeding plans on hold for a year or two, because at the moment there simply aren't enough good homes out there for the number of puppies born.

And I'm sorry, but the number of times family and friends actually follow through their 'promises' of wanting a puppy is far less than you'd think. When the time comes they start to melt away like snow in summer.

>So are you saying if we want another dog to go and line someone elses pocket with £800 and buy one?

If you want another dog like your bitch you'd be best going to her breeder for advice as to which stud dog is most likely to produce this outcome. The wrong lines can have disastrous results.

> so why not???

Well you have asked so I shall tell you.  Very little in your posts so far suggest that you know anything about breeding beyond some of the biology.
I'm a nurse too, a gynaecology nurse who works in a nurse led Early Pregnancy Unit  very little of what I understand from my 20 year nursing career has been useful in dog breeding apart from some confidence in my hygiene etc and a recognition that you have do some studying and ensure your competence before considering something that impinges so strongly on the lives of all the families that your puppies may end up with.

You mention health testing but are not in the least specific.  Serious breeders tend to rattle off exactly what was tested for and the results.

Serious breeders ensure they are using the best possible stock by showing or working their dogs and achieving good results.  You haven't yet mentioned this.

Serious breeders pour over pedigrees, network endlessly and travel far and wide to find the best possible mate.  Very, very rarely will that turn out to be a family pet within the family.

Ah well thanks for nothing......

So why are there champion dogs with puppies for sale if there are no homes out there??

As for family letting me down can see that being a big problem as these dogs only usually have 1 or two puppies anyway......

I am prepared to pay for caesarean etc and so what if I had to keep all the puppies??

Clearly you wont help and tell me where we are going wrong so what is this site for???

Are all breeders stuck up their own backsides and wont help other people?

Well guess I should give in and go and pay someone else and buy a puppy then and keep the established breeders in money because thats how it appears to work.

Interesting that people use the lecture word as a bad thing rather than in the sense if being talked through the best ways of doing things !!

I would have thought being a nurse, lectures are a thing you would have been used to being in the profession you are in and no doubt have learnt alot from them :-)

Why do people always tell you not to have puppies? Is it because they become competition? Havent ALL breeders had to start somewhere?

I don't think any of us is worried about competition. We are however worried about the newspaper articles, the TV programmes etc that proclaim all breeders of pedigree dogs are bad, breeding sick dogs etc, when in fact these poor dogs usually are produced by those that just want to breed some pets for their family.

Yes everyone has to start somewhere. Normally you start by buying a good quality pup, showing it or working it successfully, becoming involved in the breed club, getting to know people, getting a mentor or two, then after years, when you're perhaps on your second or third of fourth dog the idea might come to you to breed a litter -by which time you're already involved in the breed and the dog fancy and have the contacts and above all the knowledge about the breed in general.

And why should everyone who wants a puppy go out and spend £800 on a puppy when I could get one for a lot less by breeding my girl??

How would you end up paying LESS than £800 by rearing a litter properly?

You dont want to spend, you wont take good free advice yet you insist that strangers tell you how to do something you are adamant to do....despite their well founded concerns.....

Well you best get on with it then!

>Are all breeders stuck up their own backsides and wont help other people?

I don't know - because you've had a litter in the past, and are trying to produce another, you're a breeder. And it's certainly going to cost you more than £800 to rear a litter properly.

If your family and friends aren't prepared to pay the going rate for a well-bred puppy (and in many breeds the £800 you quote would be for an outstanding puppy from two champion parents, not family pets) it implies they only want a puppy because it's cheap, not because they actually want a dog ...

No one here is worried about competition; most breeders thrive on an interesting litter from a peer and are as excited by the pedigree of the mating as the owner is.

Which health testing have you done, and what does your breed need health testing for? Have these two been combined?

I have been planning my first litter for the past two years, and travelled four hours each way to see our stud on Friday! It was completely worth it to be in the hands of an experienced stud owner who knew exactly what to do, and we had a great mating with a twenty minute tie. I felt completely at ease and confident that my bitch will fall pregnant because I researched and did everything right.

Everyone does have to start somewhere, and that usually entails finding the right stock to start from with a foundation bitch, talking it over with that breeder, and being entrusted their lines after talking to the right people and learning as much as possible within the breed. This means spending months pouring over pedigrees, getting out to shows and seeing who's out there that you might want to use, and then looking at the dogs that dog has thrown, and his father, and his father, and his brother! It's much much more complicated to produce good puppies than just 'using a family's dog' that's convenient. If I had the perfect stud dog that complimented my bitch perfectly in every way that happened to be owned by my fiance's family, then by jove, I would be laughing. As it happens, this is incredibly rare, so it seems to me that you just fancied a puppy from your bitch and used a dog closest. Do you think this litter will give to the breed at all?

As for the money...we've spent well over £800 and the bitch isn't even fallen pregnant yet.

Good luck waggamama, you very much deserve it. :)

doris99, you knew what the answer to your post would be, or at least if you have read the breeding threads you would. This is not the time to bring new puppy lives into the world. As you have bred before you will know that the litter will not only cost you far more than £800 even if you did all the testing for the first litter so can ignore that several hundred you spent then, two months off work alone will easily buy you the best puppy going so why on earth put your bitch at risk.

Dear Doris99

You are prepared to come on this forum and ask for free advice - and then, when you don't hear what you want to hear, you start ranting and raving at the people on the forum and say that you knew that you would hear this sort of thing ...so why ask us?

Why did you not ask the breeder of your bitch?   Or did s/he tell you the same as you have been told here?

If a patient asks for your advice - do you give it honestly - regardless of whether they will like what they hear?  If you are a good nurse, that's what you'll do.   And that's what good breeders have done!

Advice is - if bitch and stud haven't mated - thank your lucky stars - go out and buy a puppy for your children if they are so disappointed ....but don't come asking any of the good breeders on here if they might have a puppy for you - with what you've said so far, they probably would think you far too arrogant to listen to any advice!

Have to honestly say never bred before, am inmiddleofdoing all revelant health checks and it comes from a place of caring immensely about my bitch and immensely about the breed.

I agree we all start somewhere, but I trained as a vet nurse so have clear knowledge of canine anatomy but I'm still terrified of what can go wrong, as I know only too well exactly what can go wrong. Human anatomy counts for nothing as when was the last time you saw a human with a 2 horned uterus? Lots of drugs have double register but you won't know the dosage rates so fail to see that being a human nurse helps at all.

I am still trying to make sure I can actually part with puppies and that I will emotionally find "good forever homes" I am happy with.That future owners can provide everything that the dogs will need for life, as the breeder I got my pup from does.

As for stud dogs well I'm researching now for next year at the earliest, I want to visit stud dogs to make sure I like dog and owner and see the temperament of the stud, which is important to me.

As for costing....well....it's part of it and worth every penny as I don't want to be responsible for future ill dogs. I agree it can seem as though breeders don't want new people to start, but maybe it comes from years 
of experience of potential new breeders who produce poor pups. And from dealing with ill or badly bred dogs. That said of the breeders I have contacted they have been nothing but helpful if sometimes a little condescending but take it on the chin these people have masses and masses of experience.

You can read as many books as you like but experience can't be bought, it's gained.

WHy is it that those that say their dogs are "health tested" never seem to be able to state their dogs results etc?  Mine are health tested and I would happily give results if necessary.

If you have done all of the correct health tests, which I'm sorry most vets don't have a clue about then brilliant, tell us about them and we will help you as much as we can.

To the average pet owner who isn't involved in any dog related activity, and unfortunately to the average vet, health testing means a check up in the surgery. I use a 4 vet practice that has been established for over 20 years and they knew nothing about dna tests for MDR1, CEA etc when I asked about them. Most of us arrange these tests ourselves, through friends in the same breed or through facebook pages like the one Polly set up. It's not surprising then that the average pet owner who wants to breed from their dog thinks a check up at the vets is good and all that is needed. Just one of the many reasons why the average pet owner shouldn't breed their dog :-)

Nothing to add to the other posters except that as a breeder I have helped several new breeders, because they wanted to do things properly (as I was helped and encouraged by breeders of many decades in our breed), and each and everyone of them has been very out of pocket when they bred their first litter, due to the costs involved with health testing and getting all the equipment needed, not to mention loss of earnings in their self-employment, due to time taken to rear litter.

Responsible breeders aren't afraid of competition from other good breeders and most in fact network and help with any decent puppy enquiries etc.  We all want to encourage good breeding, but sadly there are far to many puppies bred Casually (what is termed Back yard Breeding) or Commercially (Puppy Farmed).

These are the pups who may have a poor start in life, end up causing heartache to their new owners due to poor health and temperament, and rarely have a breeder that cares to help after the pup leaves their premises.

I too am a trained nurse and midwife and other than being able to cope easily with the gunk and mess involved in a whelping and keep my head in control it didn't really help the process of getting to the whelping.

I researched for 7yrs before my first litter arrived, made it clear that I hoped to breed if the dog turned out well and had clear health results, this did mean it took nearly 2yrs to get my first female but I also got a great mentor into the bargain who has introduced me to lots of breeders who have been into the breed for decades who I meet up with at shows as well as online.

If you have truly done all the health tests recommended by the KC for your breed and both dogs have passed them all, sure that the mate you want to use is the best match possible[see KC new matching site] then good luck.

Raising a litter properly does cost way more than buying in a pup and you are responsible for those pups for all their lives and should be prepared to take them back for what ever reason at what ever age.

Although it seems strange that someone who says they have looked into the problems of breeding would not have read the threads on Champdogs and therefore know we would want more information and would not approve casual breeding with pet quality animals. However to call the OP a troll may be considered going to far, it is the school holidays but one has to take the post at face value, it does after all allow us to put our point of view.

Sorry troll maybe too strong a word.  Just strange anyone would consider coming on here with the complete scenario that really does wind everyone up!  Anyway, great replies!

>And why should everyone who wants a puppy go out and spend £800 on a puppy when I could get one for a lot less by breeding my girl?? Same with my family members?Dont mean to be rude but no one has explained the poss reasons why this is happening just given me the dont do it lecture!<br /><br />So are you saying if we want another dog to go and line someone elses pocket with £800 and buy one? Im not even planning on selling my puppies so is that also wrong??

Do you know how much it costs to rear a litter?
Unless you have copious amount of money at your disposal (which I assume you don't as you don't wish to spend £800 on a pup) won't you be loosing money if you are not selling any of the puppies? Most people could not afford to keep breeding if they did not get some of the money spent back by selling the puppies.
My first home bred puppy has cost me way over £4000 to produce and not a penny has come to my direction from puppy sales...
This figure only includes the vets fees, stud fee and few larger costs like blood tests&welping box, no costs like food, wormer, chipping, bedding etc as I stopped counting after -£4000 :)!
In all honesty if this happened with all litters I bred (e.g. loads of money out but no money in ever as I gave the puppies away), I could not afford to breed for very long.

There is so much to breeding healthy quality puppies and if you are not aware of these issues, I'm sorry to say but maybe you should have done little bit more research. Do you honestly believe breeders only try putting new breeders off because they become competition?
No breeder nowadays can "work alone" so most good breeders are delighted to get new enthusiastic breeders in their breed, this is new breeders who are working hard to benefit the breed&see the bigger picture, breeders who are not doing it to try to line their pockets.
Sadly it is often the good experienced breeders who in one or the other way end up picking up the mess caused by the breeders who did not care enough to put in the necessary effort in order to become a person with enough knowledge to breed.

It is not just about doing the health tests (which of course is a good thing!), having a KC registered dog and stud near by with the same.
It is to do with experience and knowledge to know the lines of your dog, what not recorded health issues are there, what different lines produce (health, temperament, looks), having a picture of what you wish to produce and why...
Having the knowledge to select the right homes for the puppies and having the experience to advise the new puppy owners with issues/questions they will have in order to support a happy life for all.... Having the connections that will make it easier to home your puppies to the right kind of homes...
The list really is endless an more you learn more you will realise how much there is to know&learn.

Of course everybody will have to start somewhere but we are talking about producing living creatures so when you decide to breed a litter, you really owe it to the bitch and puppies that you have learned as much as you can to give them the best you can and have a support of knowledgeable people around you.
The best way to start breeding is to do it with support of somebody with vast experience, somebody who can help you with the questions you will have and selection of the right mate for your bitch etc. Are you in touch with the breeder of your girl?

I think OP may have vanished but I just wanted to say, it may seem like you're being come down on like a ton of bricks but this 'lecture' is borne purely and simply from concern for the canine race and no selfish reasons whatsoever....

When you're 'in' the dog world you see daily just how heartbreaking the current situation is and you may be perfectly genuine but nobody here knows that yet, they wanted to glean something from you that told us you were prepared before you got all the encouragement & advice to go for it... you may feel like you've been wrung out to dry but it's only because the people on here care so very deeply about dogs.

I've had so much good advice from these folk, believe me, try & do it properly, accept you're a complete novice asking experienced people for advice & all you will get is genuine DAMN GOOD advice!