On another forum there is a discussion about designer dogs which I always assumed were classed as cross breeds or mongrels. The discussion started with 'jugs', jack russel x pug. This poster is saying that the pups are 1st breed and would only be classed as mongrels if the 'jugs' were then bred to other 'jugs. She then said this is what happens with lurchers etc.

Can someone explain this to me because I have to say it sounds like hogwash?

Sounds like hogwash to me too!
They're a crossbreed to me, then if they're then crossed with other breeds after that, they're mongrels.

The new fashion is to name these cross breds, as this is what the are, stupid names which makes others think it's actually a breed!!!

If you give it a comical name then people will pay more money for it?

A jug mated to a jug gives you a cocktail = mongrel.

Nova like that lol
Conversation overheard recently
A) Is that a labradoodle
B) could be you can allsorts of doodles these days
C) Yes and others like a cocker poo
B) yes lots of different types of dogs available now

What rubbish are they talking makes dogs sound like a new brand of chocolate bar not animals and crossbreeds at that
What is this type of snobbery that makes having a crossbreed with a "name " something to aspire too ?
Didnt people used to say oh yes hes part this and part that or a plain old mongrel

>If you give it a comical name then people will pay more money for it?

That's about the size of it!

I am going to make my fortune when I mate a bull breed with a Shiz Tzu.  :-)  :-)  :-)

Just about everyone will want a Bull Sh**

I think the original poster on this other forum is a bit mixed up.

A cross between a pug and a jack russell would be a 'first generation' crossbreed, subsequent crosses could be described as 2nd generation, 3rd generation etc. or as crossbreeds. If its two known breeds then I would not say it is a mongrel really.

As far as I know a mongrel is a dog whose parentage is mixed and unknown so really even a known cross who is say, jrt x pug x poodle would not be a mongrel.

I dont describe my lurcher as a mongrel, I know his parentage (bedlington x whippet dad, to working beardie x greyhound mum).

I do describe my odd staffy x thing as a mongrel sometimes - his parentage is roughly, lurcher mum (who clearly has some terrier and bullbreed in there somewhere) GSD dad... but he looks like a black and tan, wire haired staffy with slightly longer legs.

As far as designer breeds go - well, people are ignorant, and stupid. Lots of people are thoroughly unaware of how many longstanding pedigree breeds there are as they just dont hear about them, because they dont move in doggy circles (I have a mental image now of people all circling round like dogs sussing out a place to pee or lie down!)...

If you have only seen collies, shepherds, labs, goldies, staffies, greyhounds etc, and you arent a dog geek or into showing, how would you know about Shiba Inu's, Beaucerons, Belgian Malinois, Hovawarts.... In fact I am routinely surprised by the number of people who havent met a tibetan terrier before, I thought they were fairly well known but it seems not. No one knows what my Deerhound is, im either told shes a lurcher, or a wolfhound...

So combine that ignorance with the high media coverage and advertising designer breeds get.. its hardly surprising people THINK that designer breeds are offering them something not otherwise available.

*And I will SCREAM if someone else tells me my fairly well bred and correct Tibetan terrier is a flaming cockerpoo! GRR then they are shocked that there already IS a dog that looks like that (and even more shocked when I say there are several that would fulfill the cockerpoo role, only more predictably and NICER!), as they had no idea!

Excellent post Theemx.  Uneducated, ignorant dog 'wanters' there's nothing worse..

Not to mention my grooming clients with their Lagotto, and my friend with his Curly coat retrievers!! :-p

>*And I will SCREAM if someone else tells me my fairly well bred and correct Tibetan terrier is a flaming cockerpoo! GRR then they are shocked that there already IS a dog that looks like that (and even more shocked when I say there are several that would fulfill the cockerpoo role, only more predictably and NICER!), as they had no idea!

theemx, according to Wikipedia
"Mongrel refers to mixed ancestry:
Among pets, one whose parentage is of unknown or mixed breeds as opposed to purebred"
As far as I´m concerned, anything which is not purebred is a mongrel.  However, for some reason lurchers do seem to be an exception to this.

My dad asked someone if their curly coated retriever was a labradoodle.  I was highly embarrassed and instantly told him off.  The lady was very polite and said it happens a lot - really felt for her as she had a stunning dog

if only labradoodles looked as good as curly coated retrievers then i could understand their popularity

Just about everyone will want a Bull Sh**

Only if you make them really, really expensive and make them wear silly clothes

I know what wikipedia says.. but that is just wikipedia!

Lurchers are obviously an exception because they are bred for a purpose and often as much care and thought is put into their breeding as is put into the breeding of pedigrees.

Latest silly name I have heard is a "picachu"!!!!!! I saw red and grumbled to myself whilst thiking "why?" "Poor dog!"

That really made me smile :-)  the subject of Designer dogs really get my goat, the original labradoodle was specificaly breed for people with allergies, it was well researched before hand. the other designer dogs are unscrupulous folks way of getting round KC breeding rules, they have one litter of registered pedigree pups from the bitch then two litters of designer pups from her and so according to the KC she has only had one litter!
While out walking my dogs recently I met a man with a pug x jack russel and also a chuhuaha x jack russel and he told me how he paid £350 for one and £450 for the other and I exclaimed "what you paid that for a mongral you must be mad! He avoids me now lol

I saw what I was told by someone else was a 'Jug'
Afraid I exclaimed loudly enough for the owner of the dog to here, why on earth would someone pay loads of money for a cross breed with a stup[id name. Just go to rescue!!!
Just hope he didnt want any work done, as it was on a caravan park that we do alot of work on LOL
Lea :)

Hi had a email to day for a cavapoo so emailed back that i did not do crossbreeds only healthy pedigree's of the same breed.

While at an outdoor event I met a small Tibetan Terrier-looking dog about 6 months old.    The owner told me it was worth a fortune - he "could never have afforded one but it had been a present from the breeder at a knock down price"   ???    A cocker poo (Dog Sh*t to me ;) )  I asked why so much for a mongrel to be assured it was a PEDIGREE (ARGGGHHH!!!!)   He was getting shirty for some reason ???

I commented that I didn't envy him the coat care as it got older only to be told "It's won't be a problem as he doesn't moult"  !!! 

I tried, honestly I did, to point out that not moulting means that the coat simply stays on the dog and has to be brushed and combed out - especially when changing to the adult coat, but his eyes were already glazed over :(

The coat was really cottony, long and very profuse even at 6 months :(  Heaven help that little dog as he gets older :(

I don't have a problem with mongrels, I had one myself and he was one of the best dogs I've ever owned (not one of the healthiest :( )   but to breed them DELIBERATELY, claim they are a BREED and non-moulting, and charge stupid amounts of money on the back of this is surely fraud?

> I don't have a problem with mongrels, I had one myself and he was one of the best dogs I've ever owned (not one of the healthiest :-( )   but to breed them DELIBERATELY, claim they are a BREED and non-moulting, and charge stupid amounts of money on the back of this is surely fraud?

Totally agree but to be fair to him it may well be a pedigree in the sense that each parent's antecedents are know and possibly even registered just not the same breed.  Although I doubt very much that is what he meant as so many of the buyers of these dogs appear to think it is a breed by virtue of being rather common these days so that was probably the tree he was barking up.

>it may well be a pedigree in the sense that each parent's antecedents are know and possibly even registered just not the same breed

In that case my mongrel was a pedigree too as the parents were both known and had a pedigree     IMHO the best you can call it is Cross-Breed :(  

This conning of buyers really has to stop. 

If I sold you a 'cut and shut' car as a whole car I'd be committing fraud.  How much 'extra' could I charge for a Lotus Elite with a Morris Minor engine?  If it wasn't declared, or was 'talked up' as something extra special I'd soon be seeing the inside of a court room ;)

The fact remains that the 'breeder' had told him that the coat was easy care as it was non-moulting, which was a lie and that the 'breed' was very expensive, as the 'breed' doesn't exist this is also a lie :(

Pity more puppy buyers didn't think to go to trading standards when they find they've been lied to :(

Do think the word pedigree is used when pure breed is meant they should not be interchangeable. Any living creature that has it's ancestry recorded has a pedigree but only those bred for many generation true to type can be call pure breed as a posed to a mongrel who's background is known.

Try breeding a cross breed with a cross breed and see if the whole litter breeds to type if not it's a mongrel.

The whole designer mutt rip off gets my goat as much as the next CD'er, but I did meet a very charming Labradoodle recently, he had been bred by the owner from his working standard poodle, mated to working Goldie, he bred him because he wanted a dog as good as his mum but couldn't find any Standards up to the job of working so decided to breed on working ability rather than breeds. I was very taken with the dog I must say, he was only 8 months old but was very calm and polite, looked rather like a Bouvier.

> working standard poodle, mated to working Goldie

Would that not make it a golddle...sorry could resist

edited to say: I have seen lab x poodles & they look nice dogs but it's not right, in my opinion, for them to be mis-sold as something they may not be, at an very high price.

Looking after a Cavalier/Bichon cross at the moment, she's totally hyperactive, gorgeous but a nutter :)

>Try breeding a cross breed with a cross breed and see if the whole litter breeds to type if not it's a mongrel.

The litter my crossbreed was from was varied.  As adults, three large smooth-coated tan dogs and one small black long-haired dog (mine) from a Smooth Parson Russel and an Afghan Hound   and a complete accident.  All were rehomed for nothing, no money whatsoever!

The whole 'designer' dog business really gets to me.   It's not so much the crossbreeding, there have always been accidental mongrels, it's the deliberate and cynical creation of 'added value' where none exists and the fleecing of buyers and misrepresenting of facts    In any other business these people would be in court for fraud.  If you were advertising and selling computers that were claimed to be high spec and did not match up to the description, Trading Standards would be very interested in the case.

To me Designer Dog Breeder is just another byword for 'Snake Oil' Purveyor :(

> Do think the word pedigree is used when pure breed is meant they should not be interchangeable.

Exactly.  

I won't pretend to be very knowledgable and have been out of the 'dog world' for a while,but I can often be heard muttering to myself about the new 'designer dog' culture,I just don't get it!! I understand the need for dogs that don't moult for allergy sufferers but surely there must be pure bred dogs that don't moult so why not just have one of those those?? The silly names drive me potty as well and I agree that it seems like some gimmick just to sell what is essentially a cross breed for far more money than it's worth.

As mentioned I'm no expert,but in regard to the x breed/mongrel debate I have always understood it to be that two pure bred but of different type parents make a cross breed and anything that has a mix of more then two breeds is a mongrel.No idea if that's right but just in case a lay person perspective is any use thought I would mention!!

There are any number of dogs who do not chuck out tons of coat (there are NO dogs who will never ever lose a single hair, because hair breaks and hair dies and falls out, but some dogs moult as in , cast a ton of hair twice a year. Some dogs shed looooooads on a daily basis, and some dogs lose very very little until you brush them).

There are also lots of types of coat, and lots of reasons a person might be allergic to 'dogs', as in, many folk are actually allergic to saliva and/or dander, and not the hair particularly.

So anyone selling anything as guaranteed to suit allergy sufferers or 'ideal for allergy sufferers' wants shooting and is on a legal sticky-wicket really, but anyone selling crossbreeds as such hasnt a flaming leg to stand on! Because they just cannot guarantee what will happen with a pups coat until its an adult and by that time, it is too late for many pups!

Off the top of my head, breeds more likely to suit allergy sufferers:

Bedlingtons
Any wire haired type
Poodles
Corded breeds

But there just are no guarantees - my badly dog allergic friend (who has two dogs of her own) is much worse with my bedlington x than she is with my Tibetan terrier. But then, shes not particularly allergic to fur but to dander and saliva, so the beddy who washes himself a lot is far worse than the tibby who doesnt (unless the tibby is due a bath and v dusty).

It does boggle my mind that people can seriously think dogs such as a labradoodle or a golden doodle will be guaranteed not to shed though, given just HOW badly labs and goldies shed!

Very interesting reading that reply theemx as have always wondered how come 'labradoodles' don't moult considering is half lab and they definitely moult!!

I assumed that there was some science behind it and that the poodle gene was dominant or something like that and could guarantee that anything bred to a poodle would have that coat,I am guessing not though from your reply??

Does that mean that it's literally pot luck and these breeds might not end up being allergy friendly at all??

Sorry for the Q's just interested!!

The poodle coat is dominant yes, but to what degree that affects moulting with only the one poodle coat gene, I don't know. Many dominant genes behave differently with only one dose of the gene, than with two. A pure bred Poodle will have two, but a dog with just one might have a different coat entirely.

The real issue starts when poodle crosses are then bred on from. If bred to another poodle cross, then you will get some which have no poodle coat genes at all and therefore as moulty as any dog. If bred to a non-poodle there will be even fewer. If bred back to a poodle then yes I guess you'll get more poodly coats but then you'd end up breeding something which is 90% poodle... not what people seem to want.

There may also be degrees of moultiness, as not all genes are strictly recessive or dominant - you can get incomplete penetrance, and threshold characters amongst others - which are kind of all-degrees-in-between genes.

> Does that mean that it's literally pot luck and these breeds might not end up being allergy friendly at all??
>
> Sorry for the Q's just interested!!

The guy who first did the cross for a Guide dog found only a couple of the pups were non moulting(as they kept them all to an age where this coudl be determined due to them being guide dog pusp), so the expereiment was not very successful, and he very much regrets what it has spawned.

There is a link to the article on here somewhere..

In this months your dogs mag there is a labradoodle owner testing a dyson grooming tool and to my delight the first thing she writes is "to dispel all the myths labradoodles can moult". Hurrah! Maybe people might actually listen when i tell them that their is no guarentees their £1000 cockerpoo won't moult just because the breeder says it won't!

Don't forget as well, that a Bedlington X is going to have a different coat and shedding to the purebred Bedlington ;)   and perhaps different dander etc. 

There are also different coat qualities within the breed depending on the lines, some being lintier and much more profuse than others ;)   some working Bedlies have a decidedly wiry coat as well since there is often some Lakeland crossing going on ;)

All this will have a bearing on how much they would affect someone with an allergy to dogs/dander.

Regarding Labradoodles,  the ones I seen have been quite smelly and moulty.  I'm not dog allergic but I had trouble breathing around a few that I've met :(

What is this type of snobbery that makes having a crossbreed with a "name " something to aspire too

Now according to this little gem i read recently we are the snobs in the dog world

the term 'puppy farmer' is usually used by show breeders who don't like the compotition when it comes to selling their litters... I have on numerous occasions been called one because i breed for genetic diversity therefore my dogs don't follow a fashion trend or particular kennel... and whilst I may be blonde, I'm not stupid and don't waste my money on show entries to have someone else (who's opinions I don't consider are of any use) judge my dogs.

I'm afraid i think there is always going to be a wide gap in dog production between the get rich quick gang and those who geniunly love their chosen breed :-(

Not sure how to quote, but in response to this from theemx:

"there are several that would fulfill the cockerpoo role, only more predictably and NICER!), as they had no idea!"

What breeds are you thinking of?

I'm not just being contentious, I've been researching breeds for a long time, and it does seem that the cockapoo is the one that fits the bill for me more than any of the KC recognised breeds.

They appeal to me in terms of aesthetics and character. There are lots of dogs that can match either, but I haven't discovered any that tick both boxes for me. I love the look of tibetan terriers and spanish water dogs, but they're both a little too sharp in character for me.

Of course there are puppy farms, there are sites online that let you book a puppy and pay a deposit online which is disgusting, but a quick search of almost any breed will bring up unscrupulous breeders if you're looking for them. It says less about the breed, and more about the breeder.

I've also found people who, like me, love them. All the ones I've met have been friendly, intelligent, active and robust little dogs. Someone can health test, pay utmost importance to temperament and make an effort to adequately raise a litter of puppies, regardless of the parentage. I can't see how ruling it out purely because it's a cross breed is any better to someone buying one purely because it is.

Every dog was traditionally bred for a purpose, what's wrong with one who's purpose is to be a pet? That's a pretty tough job in this society. A tibetan terrier is a more socially acceptable choice, but I'm not a monk who needs protecting, and a dog that's been used to guard is actually something that puts me off. Last week my next door neighbour's son climbed over the wall to retrieve his ball. I don't have a dog at the moment, and I would much prefer a dog less likely to view him as an intruder, and more likely to greet him as a potential new best friend. Socialisation is a factor, I know. But it's not the only one.

Temperament wise, I like both the cocker spaniel and the poodle (well bred examples of both, obviously, I've met some horrors in both breeds!) but as I prefer the look of a cockerpoo (and yes, I know there is variation, but it's within a range and I like the look of both ends of the spectrum) and the more I think about it, the more I think it's the right choice for me.

I abhor people who get a dog with no thought or consideration. I'm hoping to be a dog owner again by the end of 2012, but I'm not going to rush into it. I've known people who rush into buying a husky because they're pretty (admittedly, they are) but has no idea how high maintenance they can be. Surely somebody who has very carefully considered both getting a dog, and painstakingly looked into which dog is best suited is the ideal scenario, whether that dog is a pedigree or not.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's a genuine query and I do think there are more to deliberate cross breeds than just a catchy name and a high price tag. There will always be people who view dogs as fashion accessories, but pugs, shar peis and chihuahuas are just as susceptible to that kind of owner, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with those breeds, or responsible breeders of those breeds. It's a problem with shallow people and the money grabbing breeders who supply them with puppies.

What about a Lagotto? Ok they're much rarer than cockerpoos, but the one I know is gentle and trainable, and just a couple of inches taller than most of the cockerpoos I have seen.

>I'm not just being contentious, I've been researching breeds for a long time, and it does seem that the cockapoo is the one that fits the bill for me more than any of the KC recognised breeds. They appeal to me in terms of aesthetics and character.

I've known a couple through work, and although they were closely related they were chalk and cheese! One was clearly a poodle cross and the other was much more spanielly in appearance. Their characters were very different too, to the extent that one had to be rehomed.

Crosses are fine if you're a gambler, but if you want something more predictable you need to go with a breed. For me, if I wanted a small woolly/shaggy dog I'd go for a Lagotto.

I looked at the lagotto, and I do really like them but some places refer to a guarding instinct, although other people do say they're more watch dog-ish than guard dog-ish. Also I've never met any, and have come across several cockapoos.

I've seen some who were a bit bossy, but that seemed to stem from the dodgy combination of intelligent dog, stupid owner. Always a dangerous one! Even then, they were badly trained, but nice tempered.

Definitely going to look into the lagatto a bit more though, I think I might have originally ruled them out because of the rarity, actually.

So help me out then. im lost!! If two breeds of dogs are classed as a crossbreed or a mongrel, then how come a lurcher (who is crossed with different breeds) has a name. I no to be lurcher it has to be a hound eg greyhound crossed with either a saluki or collie etc but then if i crossed my lurcher with something, say a doberman for example, then would the litter be  lurcher cross's or still be classed as lurchers as lurchers are crossed anyways ???

and how did lurchers become to have a 'name' in the first place ???

>If two breeds of dogs are classed as a crossbreed or a mongrel

If two breeds are involved then the offspring are crossbreeds; if there are more than two breeds in the mix (crossing a labrador x poodle to a spaniel, for example) then the offspring are mongrels.

The Lurcher generally considered to be a 'type' as opposed to a breed (like terriers are a type, and spaniels are a type).

Didn't the name 'lurcher' originate from Romany travellers, or similar?  I thought they were a 'type' as opposed to a breed.
Just my understanding.

eta - snap! @ JG :)

I love the look of tibetan terriers and spanish water dogs, but they're both a little too sharp in character for me.

I'm not a monk who needs protecting, and a dog that's been used to guard is actually something that puts me off.

Don't know where you got the idea that Tibetan Terriers are too sharp?    the sharpness refers to how intelligent and quick to learn they are, not aggression!   The most ours ever did was lie down and bark at someone who he thought was a threat!  He was a very good judge of situations too.    In fact when he thought we had an intruder one night he came and woke me up quietly and waited for ME to go investigate, sitting at the top of the stairs ready to back me up - our front door had been opened     He was great with adults, children, babies, guinea pigs and the budgies used to comb the fur on his feet!  We didn't train him to this, he was just really sociable.

Last week my next door neighbour's son climbed over the wall to retrieve his ball. I don't have a dog at the moment, and I would much prefer a dog less likely to view him as an intruder, and more likely to greet him as a potential new best friend

In that situation our Tibetan Terrier would have either just barked at the boy, or fetched his people to sort it out.  Of course if the boy was known to him it would have been time for a game!

What makes you think that a mixed breed would be MORE predictable in temperament than a pedigree?  In my experience of mixed breeds they are far more unpredictable, you just never know whats going to be the dominant characteristic.

I have to agree with many others here.

In my job I deal with many, many variants of poodle crosses on a daily basis.

I can honestly say hand on heart, that at best only two were dogs I would be comfortable having in my home.  The majority were unpredictable, flighty and very 'silly'.  I'm not going to say every single cross breed poodle is going to be that way, but in my experience they have been pretty crackers. 
I'd rather know the common traits/temperament of one breed rather than take 'pot luck' from owning a dog with two different breeds (or more) in it.

Have had several labradoodles come to my training club. All but one were bonkers - the other one needed a rocket under her to do anything so opposite ends of the spectrum with nothing in between. Had 2 cockerpoos - both very nice boys, one very switched on and needing to do 'something' the other more steady and biddable (but was already an adult when he came to club so that might have made a difference).

I had to search for a Lagotto as I have never heard of one before, apparently it is an ancient breed.

When I was a young child, many moons ago, I would ask my parents what type of dog is that and be told "a Heinz 57" or " Bitsa" I thought that this was the names of a breed but later it meant mongrel, now there are all these "designer dogs" around I still think mongrel regardless of how many generations down the line we are, if not on the list of KC Register of dogs then they are mongrels.

I am amazed at the high prices the gullible are willing to pay for these mongrels with the fancy names,I wouldn't pay that much for a pure bred pup in some cases.

If you're choosing a dog purely on looks, then you shouldn't have a dog, in my honest opinion. So if you want a shaggy dog, go down to a rescue centre and get one. Or get a Poodle and leave it ungroomed. In fact, for what some pay for a 'designer dog' (HA. If breeders could design a dog, we would all be laughing with our perfect typey dogs with perfect ears, coats, etc!) could get you a very nice show puppy from a breed that's legitimate and won't shed when you don't want it to.

Not to mention the amount of grooming...we get so many Cockerpoos in the salon these days from where the owner has no idea about Poodle coats and yet they have a pup with exactly that, only thicker. Huge matts everywhere!

Last week my next door neighbour's son climbed over the wall to retrieve his ball. I don't have a dog at the moment, and I would much prefer a dog less likely to view him as an intruder, and more likely to greet him as a potential new best friend


You can never, EVER be sure of a dog's response in that scenario and the ONLY way to be safe is to ensure that nobody could ever enter the garden. (For the dog's safety as well, considering the huge number of dog thefts these days.) I have had Golden Retrievers that most definitely would have bitten somebody climbing into their back garden.