I took Mo to puppy training classes last night which went well, although I do have some doubts about the training methods. One thing that was said in no uncertain terms was "Do not allow your dog to play fight or play bite with other dogs. They are learning to fight and bite!"

Now all my dogs enjoy a good rough and tumble and in most parts, aren't "fighters" (Hattie being an exception, but that's a whole different story). Most litters I've seen play fight, as do most dogs living in a multi-dog household. Is this just another one of these outdated theories?

This dog club also seems to believe in "pack hierarchy" with humans being top of the pack, and say humans should go through doors and eat before lower ranking members of the pack (the dogs). I know this to be utter rubbish.

I really only go to this club for socialising purposes but wonder what others thoughts are on this.

If you wanted training I would change clubs, but if it is just to socializing then if you can stand it I suppose it is OK for that. I would have a problem keeping my mouth shut, no play fighting, how are they supposed to learn what is not allowable if they are not allowed any interaction. It is when they are puppies they learn just how hard they can bite without an unwanted reaction and if they don't learn then they are likely to find interaction with other dogs very difficult if not impossible.

Agree it is your home and you are in charge but that has nothing to do with eating order etc. the dogs allow you to be in charge because you have the key to all things good and it is in their nature to know which actions will get them what they want, some breeds may even wish to please you.

never heard so much rubbish in my life for my guys this is their favorite game and there's a big difference between playing and fighting

in my opinion it depends on how far you let them go .. a little bit of rough and tumble on the floor trying to get each others legs and playing is fine or a game of tick outside :) I have to admit I dislike the mouthing each others faces game ... I have seen other peoples  dogs take it to another level although it is still play and begin bounding around the house play boxing type of game up on the back legs jumping on and off sofas mouthing each other with the click of teeth  etc ...that I would  not accept.Plus when I think enough is enough I put a stop to it.
So I can see to a point where they are coming from maybe they dont explain it very well.

This dog club also seems to believe in "pack hierarchy" with humans being top of the pack, and say humans should go through doors and eat before lower ranking members of the pack (the dogs). I know this to be utter rubbish

That in itself is a reason not to go. At the training classes I go to (Obedience and Ringcraft) I always let my new pups play with any dog that will play with them. I believe it lets them socialise with different breeds and also teaches them when it is time to stop and do a bit of training. I think if you let them have a bit of fun them they accept training so much better. If a trainer tried to stop me then I am afraid that I would be politely letting them know that I find it acceptable.

Play fighting is essential for teaching proper bite inhibition around other dogs as well as social ettiquette, manners etc - preventing it entirely is a VERY bad idea!  I would run a mile from this club sharpish.

One of mine never played growing up with her old owner - she had a couple of puppy classes, was too scared to come out from under the chair so wasn't socialised from then on.  She has no idea how to play nicely; she bullies, she's very OTT and my other dogs generally just won't play with her because it's a very stressful, unpleasant experience for them.

Another of mine had a few puppy classes and was also too scared to come out from under the chair; I booked her in for a repeat course of classes, she overcame that fear and made friends, and with further socialisation is now an excellent player, has brilliant bite inhibition with dogs and is very polite generally - she's also my first pick for stooge dog in aggression cases as she is so good at diffusing conflict/confrontational situations.

So with an almost identical start (one was a week older than the other was when the classes started), the differences in social interactions, manners and ettitquette is HUGE and has an effect throughout their lives.  The first dog is still the odd one out in the pack socially - the second is the matriarch and plays with everyone (she's also the only one that does try to play with the first dog, and has been responsible for bringing a fair few dogs out of their shells out on walks).

I've got quite strong links with this club, having trained there for many years (although not so much now, since I concentrate more on agility), but whereas I have moved on in realising that pack hierarchy and such like is rubbish they still seem to be in the "dark ages". I've been spoilt, training with Steve Mann, and would love to take Mo to his classes, if only they weren't so far away. Perhaps for socialising, ringcraft would be a better option, especially as I would like to have a go at showing with her.

I hope no one minds if I may suggest something different.   You obviously know this Club well, by what your last posting says and that alone may provide a justifiable reason to move on- if you think their training methods are outdated but in my limited experience, I don't think they are 'totally' wrong.
What did they say when you mentioned to them that you had these concerns or why they were teaching these things?

Firstly, I honestly believe that there should be socialisation classes (separate ones) for very young Puppies.   A lot of Vets run these now and they are invaluable.   As has been said, they teach the little ones not to be guarded with others and plays a very important part in their upbringing but even at this age, it has to be done carefully.   One socialisation class I heard about, had problems with a young Akita - who even at that age, showed mild dominancy with the others - wouldn't allow others to interact etc.  The problem was addressed and this is where one instance of how these classes can be beneficial, i.e. before the problem became in-ground.  This starts to teach the dogs to 'a time and place for work/training and a time/place for play....You/owner decides when that is'.    I honestly don't feel this is over-dominance by Humans....mine all know how to have fun but know when I say "that's enough now"
they stop.
I would always strive to teach my dogs manners at an early stage.    Insisting that they allow you to go through doors before them, is I personally feel, a sensible precaution.    If you are a little fragile in build or in any event, you don't want your dog barging through a doorway ahead of you, out of control. (But I know you know this already).  I have seen a dog attack another because the Owners was allowed to be hauled towards the other.     The classes I have been on train towards the KCGC tests and that forms part of their requirement.    

Could it be that their Heirarchy belief is simply that they are trying to emphasise the importance that whilst Dogs are Dogs and should be treated as such and allowed to be Dogs, it is important, as they live with Humans (because we brought them into our lives) that there has to be some ground rules?
I just wonder, without knowing this class, if they are trying to instil some basics initially - for those who have no experience and when the basics have been taught, owners may be able to relax a little, depending on their dogs.   I for one was very grateful for such teachings and feel I would be in a terrible mess without them.

Just a few thoughts and not a criticism of what others have said so far.

Insisting that they allow you to go through doors before them, is I personally feel, a sensible precaution.

What always, can't understand this sort of training at all, if my dogs ask to go out then I open the door, I do not expect to go through it first! If I want the dogs to stay in the room I say stay otherwise an open door is for them to leave by.

Socialising puppies of mixed breeds need sorting the bold ones together the shy ones together, if they are not allowed to learn to mix when young then they will be lucky if they ever learn to enjoy the company of their own kind.

A good puppy class is essential IMO - that is not what these people are apparently saying; according to the OP, they are saying do not allow your dog to play at all because it encourages biting and fighting.

A well-run puppy class was absolutely crucial in turning my second dog into the well-socialised, well mannered sometime stooge dog she is today.

Also, what they have advised re. doors, eating first etc is the classic bumf quoted from the old (and now debunked) dominance theories in which humans should strive to be 'alpha' and dominate their dog.  It's known to be complete rubbish these days. Control, yes; rules, yes; but sense, too.  Spending your time trying to get one up on your dog in the rank department is a waste of time and energy as the dog simply doesn't care about being in charge of its humans!

Re. the door thing - definitely a sensible precaution but personally I don't insist on it at every door - I ask for it when it's needed but as Nova says, I don't always want to go out of the door too!

> "Do not allow your dog to play fight or play bite with other dogs. They are learning to fight and bite!"
>

How on earth do they expect dogs to play? All aspects of a dogs play is to do with hunting and fighting, that is why they have signals to show each other that the things they are doing are play - (eg. a play-bow before they start biting each other).
What do they expect dogs to do? Get out a skipping rope or play pat-a-cake?

> This dog club also seems to believe in "pack hierarchy" with humans being top of the pack, and say humans should go through doors and eat before lower ranking members of the pack (the dogs). I know this to be utter rubbish.

Not much to say on that - you've said it allready - utter rubbish :)

My dogs play flight and I see no problem in it.  If they are too noisy or over the top - one of mine lacks some play skills, I will step in and calm them for a short time then tell them to play again.  Its great for them to learn and I love to see them play. 

With regards to the door thing, my dogs are taught to wait at doors, gates, getting in and out of car boots etc for manners and so I have control of the situation.  I don't mind whether i or my dogs go out of a door first as long as they do it calmly...the same as i'd expect from a child.

Gonna put thecat amongst the pigeons again.

I don't like puppies play fighting either. This is exactly the place your average pet dog owner loses all control,the pups learn other dogs are way more fun than boring owners!! This is the place they learn to bully another dog if they are so inclined and bite inhibition has already been taught by mother and siblings, humans undo this for pups.

I object to dogs being used as "practice" for biting techniques, which is exactly what happens, mum will have taught this so they do not need to be taught by other dogs.What can happen is your pup gets a throughly good pasting by a dog who has spent too much time telling pups what to do and your pup ends up nervous aggressive around dogs.

Pack theory is naff, outmoded and boring!! Ever seen a doorway in the middle of the woods with a gang of wolves looking for Dave so he can go through first?? In a wolf pack they will utilise each wolf's individual skills for differing situations and in a good well organised dog "pack" it can be hard to tell who's in charge as the same occurs.

Now your all huffing and puffing, my answer to the play fighting is to allow 3-5 mins and then to move on, pup should follow when called and be pleased to comeback. Rough housing is a huge no no and it spills over into aggression too easily.

Don't forget we are talking your average dog owner, not people who are around dogs everyday who can see and understand body language and know when to interupt and when to leave be. The group will be trying to compenstate for all education levels not just us folks who know dogs. Sometimes avoiding behaviours is the best way to prevent them flaring into negative behaviours as it does take practice to perfect techniques, but pups like to play so a few minutes and off you go.

Eating before dogs?What time of day is it??What day is it? Sunday? They eat last as they get leftovers and in a pack the alpha will NOT always eat first, depends on how they feel. So let that go! They don't sound asthough they will do too much harm provided you follow your gut on pack theory twaddle. I would watch and if they rely on repetition achieving perfection then can't go far wrong as that's called training, exactly the bit I can't understand about pack theory, if you're in charge how come you keep having to prove it??? Doesn't happen in a pack very often, leader is leader they don't prove it daily.

> I object to dogs being used as "practice" for biting techniques, which is exactly what happens, mum will have taught this so they do not need to be taught by other dogs.

Dogs don't generalise that well though do they - just becasue they learn that biting mum too hard results in being told off, does not mean they apply that to every single dog they meet.

> humans undo this for pups.

How right you are, people do undo it for pups - by interfering with natural dog play and communication.
Being that my pup was so huge, I was very worried about him becoming a bully by allowing him to play with my other dog (old lab cross), so I stopped all play as soon as it started. Pup seemed to get worse and every time he tried to start play with out other dog it was getting more & more out of control. So, I allowed them to play and avoided stepping in too soon, the result - the adult dog got to teach the pup the rules by cummunicationg like a dog - the one language that a pup should know fluently untill us humans hamper thier understanding of it by not allowing dogs to be dogs. Thankfully I realsied I was being an ignorant idiot before it was too late for my pup to learn the rules from another dog.

The best thing I ever did for my pups development was to allow him to play with my other dog.

> Don't forget we are talking your average dog owner, not people who are around dogs everyday who can see and understand body language and know when to interupt and when to leave be.

All dog owners are around dogs all the time, the fact that they don't understand dogs behvaiour should be the thing that is addressed, if trainers taught the owners what to look out for and educated them to help them understand dog behviaour, they wouldn't have to teach them to stop thier dogs interacting which will cause many more problems than a pup being allowed to play with other dogs.

If people are really not capable of learning when a dog play is getting too excitable/OTT then I do not think they should be allowed to own a dog in the first place - these are the people that can casue problems for everybody. Not being able to distinguish between safe dog play, OTT dog play, natural dog communication and problem behaviour should not be an acceptable part of dog ownership.

I see too many people shout at thier dog for growling at mine (many dogs get frightened by the size of my dog and understandable react with a growl when thier owner drags them over and forces them to greet - silly to force such a greeting, but highlights the amount of over-protective owners that do not let thier dogs mix with others), those same people would most likely report me for having a dangerous dog if I allowed my dog to play with thiers - they would have no idea that the fake bites/air biting dogs do to each other in play are acceptable from large dogs - becasue they don't understand dogs.
Ignorance is not acceptable nor excusable. Trainers are in the prime position to actually educate these numpties as to what a normal dog actually behaves like - then they would have a better chance of knowing which dogs are safe to allow thier dogs to interact with and which dogs to stay away from.

Sorry for the rant, but I find it crazy that trainers would rather teach a load of twaddle 'becasue the dog owners don't know enough about dogs' rather than actually fill in the blanks for them, teach them what they should know which makes for educated dog owners and happier, safer dogs.

Not necessarily replying to you mastifflover, but I think I'll go on Friday and query what she's saying rather than biting my tongue. I'm not the sort of person who likes confronting people, but have in the past raised the subject with one of the committee members to mention it at the next committee meeting and nothing came of it. If anyone is interested I'll PM you a link to this particular club's "information for new members" section and you can read the full list of do's and don't's.

I should add that Mo is a home-bred pup and an awful lot of the play interaction is between Mum and her, and a lot of it is instigated by Mum. There are also 4 other dogs at home, as well as Mo and her Mum, and Mo is reprimanded by each - I don't generally need to intervene. Hamish is still enjoying his rough and tumble games at 12 years old. The only one I have to watch is Hattie, who would love to play with her, but is way too heavy handed, so any interaction between them is closely monitored.

> I don't like puppies play fighting either. This is exactly the place your average pet dog owner loses all control,the pups learn other dogs are way more fun than boring owners!! This is the place they learn to bully another dog if they are so inclined and bite inhibition has already been taught by mother and siblings, humans undo this for pups.

Precisely why I said a well-run puppy class is essential :-) Bad ones can and do cause bullying etc, but a good one will not just let all the puppies down together; they separate as appropriate, monitor the play and have certain pups on their owner's laps for a bit if need be.  The ones I atten ded with mine were like that and Opi was indeed taken out of play a few times as she got more confident, to allow the younger newbies to play for a bit (because I repeated the course, she was of course 4 weeks older than the normal starter age the second time round).

Any dogs I saw in the years following that class that we'd met in it were well versed socially, not bullies and a pleasure for my dogs to be around :-)

This makes interesting reading (lovely story about a polar bear playing with a huskt too :) ). It is from the National Institute of Play, so is geared towards how play effects humans, but as in lots of research other species are covered (and indeed, learned from).

A little snippet:
"For humans and other animals, play is a universal training course and language of trust. The belief that one is safe with another being or in any situation is formed over time during regular play. Trust is the basis of intimacy, cooperation, creativity, successful work, and more."

Reading between the lines (and the rest of the article) play is very important :)

ETA, no, it's not all geared to humans, there's a lot more on that web-site about all animals - looks interesting :)

ETA again! - "Rough & tumble play ....Lack of experience with this pattern of play hampers the normal give and take necessary for social mastery, and has been linked to poor control of violent impulses in later life." from here.

> an awful lot of the play interaction is between Mum and her, and a lot of it is instigated by Mum. There are also 4 other dogs at home, as well as Mo and her Mum, and Mo is reprimanded by each - I don't generally need to intervene. Hamish is still enjoying his rough and tumble games at 12 years old.

This is where dogs learn best from multi age mainly adult dogs.

I have had up to 5 generations living here and the pups learn that there are differing levels of behaviour tolerated by differing dogs.

This is why I feel some of the puppy socialisation classes can cause harm as they are aimed at babies of a similar age, and it is natural for pups to compete and establish their place, and with differing sizes and characteristics this can be problematical (some breeds quite happily play very rough, where this would be intimidating for another).

It would be like letting a class of pre schoolers learn from each other how to act, 'lord of the flies' comes to mind.

So with play between youngsters we need to intervene as adults of their own kind would, but not be so quick when dealing with interactions between adults and Young (assuming the adults are well adjusted in the canine sense).

In any social grouping the young learn their communication, do's and don'ts from adults, not just other youngsters.

Oh how I wish I didn't have to explain dog behaviour to dog owners but let's face it that'show Imake my living and if everyone had all the answers I'd be out of work!!!

Owner compliance is another training nightmare!!

I have been on home visits where people have told me the dog is openly aggressive when peoplecomethrough the door. Findings....Yorkie who growls at people in greeting!! Owners have owned dogs before and never come across it. We have the luxury of being around dogs all the time and their being a part of how we live. Other people have lives!! They can't see obvious signs of stress or mounting aggression,or that their dog is aggressive even when it's wearing amuzzle!! And yes I've had experience this summer, a rottie muzzled off lead obviously had dog issues but owner says it wants to play!! Muzzle was for food stealing despite it hurling itself at my oblivious bitch very aggressively. I'm afraid the majority of the general public are pretty poor on dog skills ormaybe that just applies to Manchester.

Although poor training groups locally do not help. A local group runs puppy group with up to 26 pups at a time where all they seem learn is how to bark, lunge on lead and food guard. I have 8 pups(6 is better still) maximum with plenty of space, a helper and rooms for nervous dogs to back into, toys mats for dog to sit on. Other trainer locally strings up terriers and hits dogs as part of her training yet people go back time and again. I'm the local oddball trainer, who regulates numbers, uses clickers, harnesses if needed and loadsa treats!! Spends time with each owner individually every lesson and plays games for dog and owners to encourage learning whilst disging out homework on breed types. Most dog owners have no idea about the orginal use of their dog,which never ceases to amaze me!! The complete lack of reasearch!!

Doesn't help when you have one of the biggest puppy supermarkets in the area where do may pups are bought from, so a poor start anyway.

I don't like puppies play fighting either. This is exactly the place your average pet dog owner loses all control,the pups learn other dogs are way more fun than boring owners!! This is the place they learn to bully another dog if they are so inclined and bite inhibition has already been taught by mother and siblings, humans undo this for pups.

Sadly some humans remove pups from Mum and sibblings before these lessons of manners, bite inhibition and general dog-dog language can be taught!

and people wonder why there are so many unsocalised or aggressive dogs around maybe its because they havnt learned natural behavior

> Sadly some humans remove pups from Mum and sibblings before these lessons of manners, bite inhibition and general dog-dog language can be taught!

How early is too early?  Guide Dog puppies are removed at 6 weeks.  I think I have an open mind about this as it seems to me there must be other ways than just leaving it to Mummy :)

Totally agree brainless has a lot to answer for!!

I have just returned from a dog walk and yet again had one of my lot attacked!! By  a huge mastiff/gsd cross whom local people have tried to get to come to me for help!! And who else was in that group?The local copper's dog who has been walking his dog muzzled and on lead due to history!! And guess who wasn't muzzled??

I give up now! House on market and moving out of area as I have never come across an area so full of large out of control dogs!! Even had that comment from local vet last week!! And I believe it stems from gangs of people walking the fields letting dogs play roughly no rules and then they get a second dog and lo and behold aggression abounds!! Usually the younger dog in the house that ends up aggressive rather than older dog.

Taking dogs away from mum too soon does cause issues as well with bite inhibition as does litter size, above 7 seems harder for mum to control.

So I have had a few incidents this year, which immediately leads meto question my role in this, although my youngest dog just got her bronze yesterday with my son. Do I need to up my control? Are my dogs sending out bad vibes? Would love to say it is asthat's easy to repair, but I will still be putting in some time if just to make myself feel safer.

> Totally agree brainless has a lot to answer for!!
>
>

?????

So sorry I meant to type the puppy farm has a lot to answer for!!

Oh gordon bennet that's cheered me up!!

My mind works faster than my fingers!!

hehe, my fingers type totally dyslexic, and if I don't do a spell check it's utter gibberish.

Tell me about it!! Phone texting isn't as bad but I'm useless with numbers I can remember perfectly but write them in the wrong order!! Gotta to have a name that!!

> How early is too early?  Guide Dog puppies are removed at 6 weeks.  I think I have an open mind about this as it seems to me there must be other ways than just leaving it to Mummy :-)

I have to agree - it's not as black & white as that.  I've had Remy from 6.5 weeks - I wouldn't get one as young again but that said, his bite inhibition is excellent, his manners are great both with people and dogs, the only real trouble I've had with him was his entire male/boxer problems but that stemmed from an actual incident, not a bad start.  I socialised the backside off him and it paid off!

It's everything - it's the dogs being bred from (poor temperament, maybe poor bite inhibition in the mother, nerves etc), the breeders themselves, how they're raised by their first owners, etc etc - it's the whole thing, not just one part that's responsible.

I don't know about anyone else but I find my bitches DON'T play with their pups unless a) it is a single pup, or b) the pup has got to about 3-4 months of age. So in your average litter that leaves for their new homes at 7-8 weeks of age they haven't learnt anything from their mm about playing -they've learnt it from their littermates.

My bitches have been happy to play with their pups as long as there's only one or two in the room with her; if more come in then she leaves! I used to enjoy watching Clover teaching a pup how to hunt (go for a back leg) even though I'd told her they weren't going to have to fend for themselves in the wild!

But playing as in wrestling together - no, that's left to the pups to do together.

>I don't know about anyone else but I find my bitches DON'T play with their pups unless a) it is a single pup, or b) the pup has got to about 3-4 months of age.

It's really interesting you should say that, and I've not had many litters, but Esme didn't play with her litter until she just had Mo left. When a pup unexpectedly can back, she played with him as well. Most of my other dogs don't play with a new addition as you say until 3-4 months.

I have found my 'other' adults don't play with a pup until it is around 12 weeks old, and the ones that aren't into pups anymore start to accept them as a member of the family, until then they tend to pretend they are not there, or let them know in no uncertain terms that their attentions are unwelcome..