It might be smaller than a mastiff, but Wikipedia gives the following sizes for Bull Mastiffs:

Males should be 25 to 27 inches (63 to 69 cm) tall (AKC Std.) at the withers and 110 to 130 pounds (50 to 59 kg). Females should be 24 to 26 inches (61 to 66 cm) at the withers, and 100 to 120 pounds (45 to 54 kg).

Even if it is smaller than a Mastiff I think most people would still struggle to pick up an 8 stone fighting dog by its hind legs to stop it attacking.

> Even if it is smaller than a Mastiff I think most people would still struggle to pick up an 8 stone fighting dog by its hind legs to stop it attacking

I wasn't trying to argue the fact that is it 'small' enough to be picked up by the back legs (which the lady said did happen anyway - which proves it IS possible to pick the hind legs up of a large agresive dog - but is futile), what I was gettnig at is that BULLmastiff and Mastiff are not the same breed.

When my dogs were fighting it was very scary and having 2 fully grown male Bernese going at it is not easy to deal with, especially when it was only me trying to get them apart. Thankfully only 1 dog wanted to keep fighting which made it somewhat easier I guess. However one of the behaviourist's I had spend time with me and the dogs suggested a baking tray if you have one or something like an umbrella if out to push down in the middle of their faces if they are going at each other.
I tried water which allowed a quick break up but the baking tray was the best thing I could of used in the end..

i see in dogs today mag they advise seperating fighting dogs by lifting by the tail! wouldnt work with my schnauzers, a, they dont have tails and b, hair is so smooth, you couldnt grab the stump anyway

> i see in dogs today mag they advise seperating fighting dogs by lifting by the tail! wouldnt work with my schnauzers, a, they dont have tails and b, hair is so smooth, you couldnt grab the stump anyway

presumably they have never been involved in a 'real' dog attack then or they wouldn't make such ridiculous statements.
I have and its terrifying. only thing that got the GSD off my last dog was a brave man choking it off by the collar-and he got badly bitten. had my dog been smaller she would have been dead.

and regarding the dog that attacked cat refered to on an earlier post. quite right should be pts and owners prosecuted- that dog was allowed to roam into street where it attacked the cat. could just as easily been a small dog or child. was dangerously out of control in public place. unacceptable.

I can't get how some people seem to excuse violent behaviour by dogs , I like dogs but i like well behaved ones- vicious out of control ones I can't see the point- why risk it? plenty of good natured ones being pts every day as no home, and sorry but much as i like dogs people come FIRST, a dog thats a known risk to people should not be tolerated

> The injuries this woman received were self-inflicted as she placed her hands into the dogs mouth... Utter madness..
>
> I'm curious as to what you think I should have done? No snarkiness or sarcasm intended. The bullmastiff had killed my Dog and then toppled my buggy. My baby was screaming (high pitched) and was only 4 months old.. I was afraid that the dog thought the baby was its next target. It was wearing no collar and no lead and was impossible to restrain. I'm genuinely curious as to how you would have dealt with the situation?

Mamagreaves I for one would like to say having read your account on another post of the facts of what happened (rather then Mail) that you bravely defended your children and more to point succeded in stopping that dog doing more so are to be commended. a dreadful attack that could have been a lot worse had you not done what you did.

> I can't get how some people seem to excuse violent behaviour by dogs , I like dogs but i like well behaved ones- vicious out of control ones I can't see the point-

A dog with prey drive that attacks and kills smaller animals in merely diplaying its natural instincts, just like a cat catching and killing rodents or my prize koi from my pond - not nice, not wanted behaviour but animals will behave like animals, they always have and they always will do.
To expect dogs to display no dog behaviour - ever - is completely unreasonable and unrealistic, however, responsible onwership is not an unreasonble request and is the thing that is lacking.

The very fact that dogs are dogs (and as such, are ALL prefectly capeable of causing damage to other animals/people through fear/prey-drive/self defense/guarding/ territoriality)is the REASON why owners need to be responsible. Afterall if dogs never felt the urge to use thier teeth or behave in ways that society can not permit, there would be no need for training and no NEED for responsible ownership as dogs would be the cute, bidable, 100% non-dangerous pets that many seem to think all dogs are only capeable of being.
When people wake up and realise the potential that ANY dog has BECASUE it is a DOG, is the time when these things will stop happening.

Teaching a dog to sit, stay and not pull on the lead does not stop it being a dog, it just means the dog knows some commands.

> regarding the dog that attacked cat refered to on an earlier post. quite right should be pts and owners prosecuted

Do you think the cats responsible for killing 1 of my koi, 2 sterlet and several ornamental fish of mine should be PTS and the owners prosecuted? Those fish were my pets and loved just as much as my warm-blooded pets.

Is it ignorance or wanton scaremongering that makes people continue to make ludicrous statements such as the fact that a dog attacked a cat means it ipso facto means that had a dog or child been in that area they would have been equally at risk?

There are MILLIONS of dogs which are not safe with cats! It does not make them unsafe with dogs or children!

Weimaraners in particular are renowned for originally being bred to rid their owners of vermin which included cats and foxes; does this outlook leak into dogs and people?  I do not think so!

It is this sort of hysteria that feeds unbalanced views of dogs.

Removing a dog from a fight by using its tail (if it has one) or by its rear legs is not a "ridiculous statement" it is a method used by those who deal with dogs every day in a professional capacity and is a tried and tested one.  It avoids the risk of being bitten which is what happens when you put the hand in the collar!

I do not see anyone one on any post in this thread "excusing violent behaviour in dogs" but I do see some realistic and unrealistic outlooks and statements.

I have a dog that would shred a cat if it landed in my garden but in the 11 years of her life she has not exhibited any "violent behaviour" to any other dog or person; is a PAT dog and a very reliable stooge dog when I assess dogs for rescue.

Implying that if she killed a cat would thus make her a risk to dogs and people is at best misguided and at worst demonstrates a total lack of understanding of canine behaviour!

Do you think the cats responsible for killing 1 of my koi, 2 sterlet and several ornamental fish of mine should be PTS and the owners prosecuted? Those fish were my pets and loved just as much as my warm-blooded pets.

Precisely!

Let us change the goalposts to suit the outlook of individuals shall we?

Dog kills rabbit (oh that is what dogs do) kills a cat (let us kill it).

In fact how many gundogs would be PTS every year if every one of them that killed something (and some very well trained gundogs DO kill things) needed to be exterminated because "next time it could be a cat/dog/child"!

Do we say that all cats that kill mice, rats, fish, birds should be PTS? If not why not? Surely this is only a step away from attacking a passing child according to the logic of some posters?

>> The injuries this woman received were self-inflicted as she placed her hands into the dogs mouth... Utter madness..
>>
>> I'm curious as to what you think I should have done? No snarkiness or sarcasm intended. The bullmastiff had killed my Dog and then toppled my buggy. My baby was screaming (high pitched) and was only 4 months old.. I was afraid that the dog thought the baby was its next target. It was wearing no collar and no lead and was impossible to restrain. I'm genuinely curious as to how you would have dealt with the situation?
> Mamagreaves I for one would like to say having read your account on another post of the facts of what happened (rather then Mail) that you bravely defended your children and more to point succeded in stopping that dog doing more so are to be commended. a dreadful attack that could have been a lot worse had you not done what you did.

Totally agree.  Mamagreaves is a astonishingly brave woman.  I am not sure who you have quoted but I really don't think "self inflicted" should have been used in this context.  Perhaps "selflessly inflicted" would be more appropriate.

I also note that Mamagreaves has already stated that the owner lifted the dog's back legs amongst other attempts at seperation and it did a fat lot of good.

But that may be because the owner did not have the appropriate skills...............

We can all advise people to do x, y or z, just because THEY cannot do it, does not mean it cannot be done or is not effective ;)

> But that may be because the owner did not have the appropriate skills...............
>
> We can all advise people to do x, y or z, just because THEY cannot do it, does not mean it cannot be done or is not effective

So the leg lifting was tried and failed. The large dog did not have a collar, they were in a public park so no handy hoses or buckets of water or baking trays, planks of wood or sticks. and quite likely owners that have never needed to know how to stop a fight of this nature. Once the leg lifting fails what would you suggest is the next step?

> But that may be because the owner did not have the appropriate skills...............
>
> We can all advise people to do x, y or z, just because THEY cannot do it, does not mean it cannot be done or is not effective

Tohme, I have the greatest respect for your understanding of dogs, dog training and dog handling but I think a little recognition of what went on here might be more appropriate than winking about peoples inability to correctly lift the back end of a mastiff amidst the melay of a horribly killed family pet and a screaming baby and perhaps be a little more sensitive in the words you use and recognise that the humans involved have been nothing more than brave in what they attempted. 

I think Mamagreaves is quite right in making us consider whether dogs should have more restriction on when and where they go to enable families to enjoy their leisure areas in safety and your arguement that dog owners themselves do not always know how to prevent these incidents does more to support her view than oppose it. 

Stooge, I don't think Tohme is ignoring the what has happened or anyway disrespecting the people invloved.

Lifting a dogs back legs will NOT break up a fight - this is what Tohme is getting at - the dogs legs were lifted up. The point of lifting a dogs back legs is to give you an advantage to pull it off backwards.

> and recognise that the humans involved have been nothing more than brave in what they attempted.

Oh yes, brave indeed - (apart from the dog owner who has that responsibility there anyway), but I'm sure anybody would rather be brave and successfull in thier attempts to save thier dog, rather than brave and grieving.

> I don't think Tohme is ignoring the what has happened or anyway disrespecting the people invloved.
>

No intentionally I am sure but a little thought before using the term "self inflicted"  (I do appologise if it was not her term and she was just quoting) would not go amiss or winking at peoples attempts to deal with things in the thick of a dreadful mess.  Just a little more sensitivity perhaps.

> Lifting a dogs back legs will NOT break up a fight - this is what Tohme is getting at - the dogs legs were lifted up. The point of lifting a dogs back legs is to give you an advantage to pull it off backwards.

Whatever, still a long shot with a mastiff in the midst of a dreadful, tragic melee I would have thought.

> winking at peoples attempts to deal with things in the thick of a dreadful mess

Stooge, you've mentioned 'winking' twice now - where/what is it?  I can see a smiley face - and have used this myself on occasion - but I can't see a wink...

> I can't see a wink...

5 posts up from yours

> Stooge, you've mentioned 'winking' twice now

As I said, I don't think it was intentional but given the awfulness of the event a greater level of sensitivity would not go amiss.

>> I can't see a wink...
> 5 posts up from yours

Oh, I thought that was just a smile - maybe it's my monitor but it looks identical to the one created by a : and a )

Thanks for the reply

No, it's definitely a ;-) (; - )) and not a :-) (: - )).

Thanks JG, I actually hadn't realised that these faces are different colours too - thank you

Wow... Just Wow.

So I was attacked, my dog was killed, and my baby's pram knocked to the ground... But my wounds were self-inflicted and "utter madness" I have to say that previously I let this comment slide, but in light of your most recent reply which states... "that the Owner lacked the necessary skills to stop the attack" and therefore I must assume that by default in your statement that you also mean myself..

I would put to you that I did indeed possess the skills to stop the attack. I did so with my hands. However not before trying a number of other things including.. Kicking, punching, picking up back legs and shaking it from left to right whilst dragging, gouging out it's eyes, and laying on it's back and pulling it's legs apart sharply(this made it fall to the ground, but it would still not let go)

Think about it.. Whilst you are busy dragging the back end of a dog your dOg is getting worse by the second.

Please remember that also I had to try and achieve some sort of damage limitation to molly. After all I was at the beginning of the attack trying to save her life.. Please remember you have a very limited time in which to work before a smaller dOg is killed. 2 dogs of approx the same size you would have a chance, but not when Molly weighed 5kg, and the bullmastiff 56kg.

I could not try to choke the dog as there was no collar or lead.

We did not simply lift it's legs.. It WAS dragged bac

Many of you won't believe me... But the only thing that would have stopped that dog is a gun or knife.

I beleive you. I am still waiting for Tohme to reply to my suggestion as to what your next step should have been when the leg lifting didn't work. Personally I think in this case there was not much else you could have done to try to stop the attack. I don't know Tohme but maybe s/he is much bigger than the average woman therefor dragging a 56kg mastiff around by the hind legs would be easy for him, but I know from experience just how difficult it is to break up fights between much smaller dogs. And I know I wouldn't be messing around with its back legs if I thought the front end was within biting distance of a small baby. Better that your arms are bitten than the baby. One bite from a dog that size could kill a baby.

Mamagreaves you really don't have to explain yourself and dredge up such horrible memories.
I think most of us have the imagination to see what you were up against and how bravely you tackled things. 

umbrellas would not work here.....as there was no warning, and the dog did not approach so that i could see it.

baking tins, cans, shoes etc all of that may work..but i had none of that near me..

beating the dog with a stick would have made no difference, the lady had a chain rope lead which she used to whip the dog as hard as she could, this did nothing....gun or hunting knife or missile launcher or armoured tank or water cannon would work, but unfortunately i had not packed these items in my picnic hamper that day, a decision i have since regretted...but rest assured next time I take to the streets of manchester I will make sure to take precautions.

as for the traffic/playground danger etc etc i will just say this...

if i take my son to the playground, i stand under him whilst he is on the monkey bars, i help him at the top of a climbing frame, and i make sure he uses equipment properly. I TAKE PRECAUTIONS.

if i take my son out in the car, i make sure he is strapped into his car seat, which is fitted correctly, and i drive sensibly observing the traffic and obeying the rules. I TAKE PRECAUTIONS.

If I take my son out in public I warn him of stranger danger, I make sure he knows how to cross the road safely. I TAKE PRECAUTIONS.

All of the above give me a better chance of having a good time without getting myself or my children injured, its not foolproof.

If I take my son and/or puppy to the park what precautions can I take to make sure we are not attacked by a dog? most of you have already said "well...you cant!" and thats the problem. why are there no dog-free areas or areas where dogs are leashed only? I'm not talking about EVERY park..but one in a 10 mile radius would be a start. why cant I have a choice? I'm not the only person that feels like this...I'm not calling for segregated dog-areas....segregated people areas would do! i dont even want dogs to be not allowed..but perhaps 'leash-only zones'

I have a number of friends that have a fear of big-dogs...and I also have a few friends that do not visit the park at all because thier children are scared of dogs...and most of you owners will probably know that feeling when a muslim family cross the road in terror when you approach them...so these people not get to enjoy our parks? even if its just a small section..

also remember I live in manchester...which feels like a small hub for unruly dogs, and staffys roaming the streets without owners so please forgive me if you live somewhere in the rolling green hills of gods country but your life is not mine. I'm sure if there are any fellow mancunians they can agree that the situation here is a little out of hand when it comes to owners not being able to control there dogs, as well as clean up after them.

Mamagreaves you really don't have to explain yourself and dredge up such horrible memories.
I think most of us have the imagination to see what you were up against and how bravely you tackled things. 

no problems, your right....feeling a bit hormonal today...lol.

honestly I think its a case of we are nearing the school holidays ending....and I am getting greyer by the day.

We are off camping for a week on saturday...cumbria... i think it will do my son some good..I pray we have some unseasonal english weather...ei:good

I cant stand camping..so I have booked a caravan aswell...boys can sleep in tent, myself and my daughter need a bit of luxury...and a large vodka for mama I think after these past few weeks...

I don't know Tohme but maybe s/he is much bigger than the average woman therefor dragging a 56kg mastiff around by the hind legs would be easy for him

dont know but wanted to say I'M MUCH BIGGER than your average woman...especially on that god awful photo they are using....however on the week of the attack I lost 9lbs at weight watchers!!!! so every cloud and all that.............

There is no need to appologise either :)

Your last post was extremely eloquent (edited to say I don't mean the weight watcher one! :)). I doubt you really need to add more. I hope you find your holiday as peaceful and relaxing as your family deserve right now.  Great place Cumbria. :)

Mamagreaves you really don't have to explain yourself and dredge up such horrible memories.<br />I think most of us have the imagination to see what you were up against and how bravely you tackled things. 

same from here too.....i think you are one very brave lady. 
So sorry you lost your dog in this horrendous attack.
Others can debate/surmise BUT they weren't with you on that day & who really knows how they would react unless put in such a frightening situation.
I hope your injuries are on the mend too. x

Hi Mamagreaves - my heart goes out to youxxx  All the best to you and your poor family at this sad timexxxx

mammagreaves. have sent you a message. (see message thingy at top of screen)

also hope you have a pleasant relaxing holiday and that your injuries are healing well,

I'm fortunate enough to live in the middle of no-where and have never had walk in a city park, but your comment about people only areas seems the most sensible and workable to me. I don't know what sort of size parks you are all talking about but wouldn't a 'Family Area' or 'Picnic Area' with a strictly enforced rule of ALL dogs on lead and picked up after make everyone's life easier? I would have thought that the trouble with making the whole park lead only is that it would be so widely disobeyed that it would be impossible to enforce whereas a smaller designated area might be respected.

FWIW I agree with the others, I really don't see what else you could have done to try and stop the attack on your dog. all the handy tricks are much harder to enforce when it is a snarling swirling mess of fur you're trying to catch.
I think they only thing that might possible have been more logical on the face of things and safer for you would be for someone to remove the kids while it was attacking the dog but I know if it was my dog being attacked then logic and calm thinking wouldn't get a look-in! I can't imagine how terrifying it must have been for you, I sincerely hope you and your family are recovering.
BTW, I would love to lose that much with weightwatchers but on the whole I don't think I'll be trying it...................

And thereby hangs the tail, unfortunately. Many breeds will grow up stable and well adjusted if raised away from busy human areas, but others will acquire a deficit if not exposed at an early age. Then you may have certain individuals of any breed, given the right exposure to everything but still too stressed by 'normal'.

First, my condolences on the tragic loss of Molly and I sincerely hope that your wounds heal well to allow you good use of your hands and that your children are able to move on from this without too much stress or after effects.

I have not seen this directly written anywhere but am I correct in understanding that you are fighting for dog free area's in some or all parks?  In that case you may be interested in a system used in the Netherlands; its a traffic light style system of signs placed next to access paths in their parks.  A red sign of a dogs head with a line through it denotes dogs are not allowed in the area, this is often placed around installed climbing frames, petting zoo's, fishing areas etc.  Yellow signs of a dogs head with a bold black lead are for areas dogs are allowed on lead and green signs with just a dogs head are areas for free running, these areas always have a poo bin, and some have installed agility courses.  This worked really well; by having a suitable sized free running area there was no need for dogs to be off lead in the yellow areas and those that did not wish to interact with dogs could keep to the red areas.  Its something I'd love to see in this country and meant everyone could use the park without disturbing each other.