http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2028824/Manchester-mother-Karen-Greaves-fights-bull-mastiff-rips-puppy-pieces.html

poor family. so dreadful :(

What an awful and needless trauma for the family. I can understand why they are now campaigning for a ban on dogs in parks but this is extreme. Walking them on a lead, and muzzled if there is any doubt about their temperament, shouldn't be too much to ask of any dog owner. My three are no longer allowed (by me) off the lead in the park, even though the worst that is likely to happen with a welsh is that you get licked to death. I use it as a training exercise for them instead. For free running we drive out to woods where they are safe.

Shame parks don't have fenced exercise areas and agility activities  for dogs--these are  increasingly common in the US, where they often have separate areas for large and small dogs, a nominal registration fee for local residents (more for out of towners) payable on satisfactory vet records of vaccination etc and all dogs must be tagged on entry. Yes, the problem owners might not use them, but the rest of us and our dogs could play safely.

Tons of fenced dog parks over here in Aus too, though sadly it doesn't stop some numpties from letting their aggressive dogs run free with the well behaved dogs.

I actually thought that the park she was walking her dog in actually already is a park where dogs have been banned for years.  I know I was turned away from an event there many years ago because I had a dog.

Although she has gone through a terrible ordeal and I really really feel for her I think it's unfair to ban ALL dogs.

Stories like this make me so upset, too many people have dogs they haven't even trained the basic commands with and don't understand them at all, when even people with dogs are trying to ban all dog walkers from parks where do we go? It's a crying shame for all responsible dog owners.

Even though I know most dogs wouldn't touch a child even if they had just killed a dog a screaming baby could very well have been in terrible danger, rightly or wrongly the mother did what her instincts told her to do, it's a terrible, terrible thing that has happened, the poor son will no doubt be scarred from this along with the mother.     My heart goes out to them.

I fear though that many more incidents like that and, at the very least, the insistence that all dogs are kept on lead in all public areas may be implemented, particularly with regard to parks. Even normal dog interactions, like the odd spat between dogs, is viewed askance by many non-dog owning public.

I've said it before, I do worry about the rise in ownership of larger bull breeds and the various mastiffs breeds and types- I just don't think that many of the owners have the faintest idea what they are doing. Far too many of the much larger American Bulldogs around my way. I remember walking with my dog in the local park thirty years ago and to see a Staffy was a rarity. I never had to have eyes in the back of my head like I do now.

Oh how terrible, that poor family and that poor little Cavalier puppy. :-(

> I remember walking with my dog in the local park thirty years ago and to see a Staffy was a rarity. I never had to have eyes in the back of my head like I do now.

It's why we rarely use the country Park anymore and do mostly road walking.  It's not that with only bitches I have had problems myself, but now other dog walkers are much more worried and walking several dogs becomes impractical/stressful with people so worried their dog will be attacked.

No more the free and easy scenario of 15 - 20 years ago of dogs and owners meeting up and mingling happily on their walks, with rarely a cross word between the well canine socialized dogs.

How horrific for the little boy especially :-(  Of course we've no way of knowing if the dog would have attacked the kids, but giving what just happened to the puppy I think the mother was right to act first. I wonder about the wisdom of putting your hands into a dogs mouth to stop it biting though, but then I don't suppose she was in much of a state to think clearly. Well done all the people who tried to help, and the teenagers who took the two kids away. I suspect that a dog wouldn't go from having a 'perfect' temperament to killing another strange dog so I wouldn't be surprised if there had been warning signs. A terrible incident that could easily have been avoided :-(

> No more the free and easy scenario of 15 - 20 years ago of dogs and owners meeting up and mingling happily on their walks, with rarely a cross word between the well canine socialized dogs.

This scenario, and these places, thankfully still exist around here. I was at the beach (Silverknowes in Edinburgh) on Sunday and it was absolutely full of dogs, all off lead, all mixing well and youngsters learning doggy manners. Owners were chatting to each other, wandering along or sitting on benches. There is an outside cafe area were several dog walkers were sitting while their dogs just played around. The Country Park near me is the same.

> Although she has gone through a terrible ordeal and I really really feel for her I think it's unfair to ban ALL dogs.

Very.  And has she forgotten she was walking her own dog there too?  If all dogs were banned that would include all the cute little fluffy ones too.

> No more the free and easy scenario of 15 - 20 years ago of dogs and owners meeting up and mingling happily on their walks, with rarely a cross word between the well canine socialized dogs.

We still mostly have this at my local park - I do have to be careful with some of mine depending on the other dogs but generally it's a very relaxed, friendly atmosphere.

Although this morning I'd put mine on to pass a guy with a westie pup and he commented 'he'd not last long once they got on him, would he?' so I did tell him that actually they are very friendly, they just get giddy off the lead - he let pup say hello, mine were all brilliant and he did say 'oh, they're lovely!' :-D  So nice to be able to have a meeting like that and dispel an assumption based on me having four large dogs (and two of 'dangerous' type - dobe and rotti X).

Well Nikita, I think your attitude and foresight allowed ofr a good meeting but this is not always how people act! I wish more of the people who walk their labs round my area would act in the same sociable manner when coming across me and my dogs! :-)

Ideally no one would be letting their dogs off the lead in an area where there are young children running around! (see prey drive discussed in another thread). If at least the dog had been on the lead, none of this would have happened and no one would be talking of bans! Dogs need to be walked! If it has to be on the lead then so be it but we can't have dogs banned from all public areas :-(

I hope the little boy will recover from his experience and not develop a fear of dogs but I think he probably will.

I think that expecting dogs NEVER to be let off the lead in an area where young children are running around would preclude off lead exercise for most dogs!  Young children, after all can, like dogs, be found practically EVERYWHERE.

Such draconian measures are not justifiable or workable in the real world.

Thank goodness the children were safe, there was a similar incident at our local primary school a couple of years back, two dogs had a bit of a scuffle and then one turned on a child causing injuries to her leg. It was at home time at the school gates - very frightening for everyone.

what do you suggest is done instead? I can promise you, my views are mild compared to those of people who do not own dogs and will be quite happy seeing them banned from all parks! :-(

> what do you suggest is done instead? I can promise you, my views are mild compared to those of people who do not own dogs and will be quite happy seeing them banned from all parks!

All Dog Control Orders require a period of consultation before they can be implemented and it's important to make sure that dog owners voices are heard just as frequently (and loudly) as others.  Make sure you know what DCO's are in place for your area or identify if they may be coming.  If you still have the old bylaws in place you can expect your local authority to be replacing them with DCO's very soon.

The Kennel Club have pages dedicated to highlighting new legislation and advising dog owners to respond to consultation when required.  I'll have a look and see if I can find the page/s

Incidentally most LA's have blanket DCO's excluding dogs from ALL children's play areas. However this exclusion generally relates to the 'fenced-in playgrounds'.  These are generally marked on maps or available as lists on council websites.  Areas where 'dogs must be kept on a lead' should also be detailed and good signage maintained on the ground.  DCO's requiring 'dogs to be put on a lead as directed by...' will be listed on their websites but not usually sign posted.

Hello there,

I just thought I would reply. I am actually Karen greaves the lady from the story. It's very annoying that I have been quoted as asking "for all dogs to be banned from parks" as those words have never left my lips. I have Always been, And will remain a huge Dog lover and know that the majority of dogs are fabulous... Dogs need to run and keeping them leashed/muzzled/banned from parks is completely not fair.

In fact I think if you read the article on the BBC or manchester evening news website they have me quoted saying something completely different.

What I had actually said was that I would like to see designated dog parks or areas where dogs can be excercised off lead.. Away from children's areas. All dogs Not in the designated dog area would then have to be on a lead. This way families can still go out for the day with their dogs but they must be leashed whilst in the children's areas etc.

Is it too much to ask to be able to picnic in the park without huge dogs bounding over?

The dog that attacked us had no lead or collar. It had been wearing a slip-collar and thar had been removed by the owner upon entry to the park.

I have no idea wether it would have gone for the baby. But as she was only 4 months old at the time and screaming and the dog was in an altered state, as soon as the buggy toppled I feared the worse.

Being as you are all Dog Lovers I would also like to add to this discussion the techniques I used to try and get the bullmastiff to release my dog. None of which worked.

The owner repeatedly punched and kicked the dog in the head. It would not release. She also tried lifting it's back legs and dragging it backwards. This did nothing.

I tried yanking it's legs apart, gouging out it's eyes, pulling the jaws apart, and pulling down it ears. None of which worked. The dog had just gone.

Just to say I'm so sorry for the loss of your poor puppy, I have Cavaliers myself and can't imagine how terrible it must have been. :-(

Thank you. It was terrible.

I cannot count the number of times people have said to me recently "at least it wasn't the children" And I know that... I am not going to compare my dog to my children but I loved Molly and I'm angry at how she died and how pointless it was. I miss her terribly. I had her from 9 weeks old and she would have been 1 on the 19th of September. We had her cremated and I have hidden her toys/bed/stuff in the loft..

My little boy is devastated. He is recieving Councilling and hopefully it will help, it's early days. He doesn't want to go to the park. Any park.

2 days after leaving hospital I decided to force myself and my son outdoors and onto the local playing fields for a game of football. Everything was going well until I saw a woman walking her border collie which immediately bounded over to say "hello". Dylan was scared and started to run in circles around the buggy.... This unfortunately made the dog chase him thinking it was a game. I shouted at the woman to call her dog because he was scared, she called the dog who did not respond. She then shouted "if your boy would stop running then there wouldn't be a problem"

It's this very example above that makes me angry. When a dog approaches us.. How am i to know if the Dog is well socialised, obedient, aggressive, playful or otherwise? I don't.. I have to pretty much asume the owner is responsible. How about giving parents a choice about wether we want to mix with dogs off leads or not. Why should I have to put my trust in strangers?

I know what happened to me isn't a daily occurrence. But I think no matter what your opinion is I think we can all agree that the laws are outdated and insufficient.

Karen,reading your account of what happened is so upsetting,my heart goes out to you,what a traumatic way to lose a dog.These awful attacks seem to be on the increase.

I think all of us are appalled at the attack and many of us dog lovers are also parents.

This dog should not have been in a public park without a collar on and a legally compliant ID, the owner was irresponsible and none of us here would condone this.

However we do not need NEW laws we merely need the existing laws to be enforced.

Was this, as a matter of interest an off leash park?  Are dogs allowed to be off the lead here?

Everybody has the right to be enjoy public facililities without the fear of being molested by dogs, cats, children, men or women etc.

Until people extend to others the courtesy they expect for themselves people and animals will continue to be at risk.

Dogs are allowed offlead on Platt Fields - they only have to be onlead during certain events and are not allowed in the childrens play areas.

I am really glad Karen has come to give the true details of the attack, I imagine that must be pretty hard to do.

So often we ONLY get the sensationalised claptrap from the media, which generally does no one any favours!

I can totally see why you might think dog parks are a good idea - the problem is, and this worry IS a reality in some areas of the US, that the parks provided are tiny little things, just barren patches of land with often insufficient fencing. Frequently they have rules about no toys and no food rewards (as they cause fights, because the area is too small!), and you find they are rapidly taken over by people who have pushy, rude dogs or even aggressive ones (but the pushy bullies are more common) who make it so as you wouldnt want to take your dog there.

I am DAILY recommending that people avoid dog parks, because so many people take their dog there, let them off lead and they go around in big packs, bullying other dogs whilst the owners sit on a bench practically ignoring them. The number of people I come across whose dogs WERE friendly happy dogs... but are now, following horrific incidents in dog parks, fear aggressive, stressed out dogs is unbelievable.

IF you could stipulate and have some organisation recommend that dog parks were a certain size (ie, an acre or so!), landscaped so they werent a flat, barren space, with trees and hillocks etc so dogs are not staring one another out or barrelling straight up in a rude way. Had suitable fencing, perhaps seperate areas for training, agility equipment etc, then I might be a lot more in favour of them.

I don't think this would be possible, local authorities would be at liberty to provide whatever they wanted/could fund, and things being the way they are would just provide postage stamp areas that rapidly became full of bullies and dog-poo and no responsible thinking owner would want to use them (and the irresponsible ones wouldnt give a rats anyway so you would STILL have issues and horrific incidences like this!).

As it stands I think they would actually be more troublesome than they were worth and we would end up with dogs ONLY being allowed in dog parks and NOT being permitted ANYWHERE else, even on lead.

I DO think dogs already suffer very badly from the rather dog-unfriendly attitude so many people have these days. Dogs are now not permitted or only permitted on short leads in so many places it can be really hard to socialise them, which causes problems in itself, and keeping dogs on very short leads also can cause some pretty big fear based problems.

I'm in agreement with theemx

The thing is also by not allowing access to children (in a completely supervised manner)
how on earth are dogs expected to be perfectly behaved around children when meeting them?
Not all of us have children (our own choices/physically impossible due to medical issues etc)
not all dog owners have access to family members with children.
Dogs need to be socialised with as many types of different situations as possible and to be
given the right training to have the chance to become an accepted member of society.

Unfortunately not all dogs have received the right socialisation/training to become a 'balanced' dog
in all situations.
I've had one of my pups returned to me at 3 3/4 years old (he's now four years old and left home at 8 weeks old)
he hasnt had the right socialisation and thus has been allowed to become a social outcast that isn't happy with other dogs
or people out on walks. His levels of obedience training are very very good (ashamed to say he's better than my girls)
but this is all forgotten when something comes into the environment that he can't cope with. I did advise that this family
(who had all the right answers when being vetted before they even come to visit the litter plus previous owners of my breed) they needed to get behavioural trainer in, they did but didn't continue with follow on visits or seemingly what exercises the behaviourist advised to help improve behaviour.
Fast forward a year in time, an after an incident, they decide he must go and call me the morning after to come get him.

We know we have a long haul (at least a year)to try and get this dog turned round and to act in a more acceptable
manner to become an accepted part of society. But to do this it's going to take a lot of commitment and behavioural
re-training. BUT I won't put in him in a position where he can fail i.e off lead he stays permanently on lead and is currently exercised
in the early hours when there aren't many external stimulus so he is slowly become less stressed. We work with him at home
with training too. I also muzzle him if I have any doubts that he won't cope in certain situations I won't put anyone at risk.

I have his mother and litter sisters (2), all of whom have been well socialised from an early age.
One of them was given lots of praise from a family at a Ch show. They had two young toddlers and an older boy.
My 4yo calmly made friends and these people also had Boxers. This was a completly supervised introduction.
Both the children and my 4yo Boxer had pleasant experiences and thus both will go away thinking kids/dogs aren't
so bad.

Unfortunately people (generalised here) in today's throw away society aren't prepared to try and fix things
once they've gone wrong it's easier to throw them away and start again making the same mistakes on another dog.
They don't/won't see that it's their fault nor act with common-sense and responsibility when out in the 'real' world.
Sadly common-sense and responsibility in all parts of society are a rareity and that's why we all are suffering in
a less tolerant society today.

It's hard being a responsible dog owner in an ever increasing less dog tolerant society.
All because of those that aren't responsible, dog savvy/world savvy that let incidents like this happen and
the rest of us get tarred with the same brush and have draconian acts forced upon us :(
Sadly I don't have the answer of how we can stop those less responsible people owning/walking dogs that
are above their ability levels. Whilst still allowing us responsible ones the freedom to train/exercise our
dogs in the manner which we know that they need to become balanced members of society and not become outcasts.

> The thing is also by not allowing access to children (in a completely supervised manner)

how on earth are dogs expected to be perfectly behaved around children when meeting them?

This is why I do not agree with total segregation and total on-leading.

My oldest dobe was fear aggressive with children when she arrived - the sole reason for that was that she was kept away from them from day one so she never learned what they were and how they behaved.  She would lunge and snap at them.

I didn't continue to keep her away from them for safety - that would have been the worst thing to do in her case - I very carefully put a rehab program in place and she learned in quite a short amount of time that they weren't scary things that need to be frightened away, but a source of fuss!  She loves them now and will cheerfully poke at them to get a fuss if she thinks she'll get away with it.  I do still keep her close when they are around - purely because she's a rather large dobermann and thanks to the press, they have a bad reputation.  I've not had any problems so far but I am still careful, purely for the parents' peace of mind.  Likewise she has had years of rehab with other dogs - that will never be 100% sorted but again, I am aware of this and takes steps to keep her and them safe.  It's not difficult.

That's what's missing - care from owners.  Common sense.  And a sense of respect - so many owner now let their dogs do what they like because they don't care what people think, as far as they are concerned it's no-one else's business.  That's the issue - it needs to be.

We need the existing laws improved on and some removed - the DDA for example is just not good, and has made no difference to the number of attacks (quite the opposite, it seems to me).

The problem with segregation is that dogs will be less socialised, less able to cope and far more likely to become fearful and reactive - just as Soli was.  It's not worth it.  My local park has no limits on where dogs (or children) go - dogs generally get walked on a route round the whole park, and it takes us straight through the middle which is now a huge, 3-section adventure playground complete with cafe at the central point.  The cafe puts out water bowls, people fuss the dogs walking through, dogs and children intermingle without problems and any dogs that might have problems are either walked very early, very late, or on a route that avoids that central point (it's not the only way through, it's just the main path).  If we had a dog park there I wouldn't use it - partly because of the problems theemx has outlined but also because without practise at socialising, dogs can lose the social skills they already have.  Again, not worth it.

mamagreaves - my apologies for my observation about your comment.

So sorry for the loss of your little dog - hope your little boy isn't too traumatised by what he has experienced. I really feel for you at this time.

I love dogs.

I do not want dogs segregated from children, I do not want dogs cooped up in filthy dog parks without adequate space.

The problem in this discussion is that you are all viewing this from the dogs perspective. If you could try for a second and view this from a different perspective.

For example in platt fields... Would it be so difficult to ask for signs a little way after the entrance into the park that state "dogs off lead after this point" that way it is my choice wether I want to go deeper into the park or not.

I'm no idiot. I know that a small dog or puppy is much more likely to be attacked than a child. So I would probably think nothing off sharing the parks with dogs whilst with my children.

But I would like to ask you all a question..

How do I ensure this doesn't happen to me again? If I get another puppy for my boy how do I ensure the puppy is not killed by other dogs in Parks? How do I stay safe? What needs tO change in order to accomplish this? Assume for this question I get another kccs.

I really don't know. All I can say is that tragic and horrible though it was, and although it does seem to be an increasing problem, there are many more people and dogs who go to the park for walks and don't have something as horrible as that happening to them. I have had Cavaliers for nearly 10 years now and have only had one occasion where my dog got bitten by another dog, and that's walking them nearly every single day. I hope and pray that from now on that you, your dog (when you get another) and your children are safe on your walks.

I am so sorry . When I read the news report of what happened my heart went out to you all and I can't imagine how devestated you all must be at the attack and the loss of your young dog .
I don't know what the answer is . I have a larger breed and I worry- carry a walking stick now and if I see something in distance I don't like the look of we leave .  and I do agree I think we need areas of public green spaces that are dogs on leads only.  personally I wouldn't be against dogs over toy size being muzzled if off lead in public either although i know that would make a lot of people furious and would be hard to enforce.

what I have found regarding safety of another dog is certainly round here the type of idiot owner who has out of control off lead dog is also a lazy owner and doesn't tend to get up early in morning.  I have never had any issue with other dogs before 11am- its the 1pm onwards nice sunny day folk who seem to have dreadful dogs so we tend to tailor our park walks to when the idiot folk are still in bed and avoid the park totally on sunny weekend afternoons.
other places that tend to be safer are parks without fences bordered by roads as that type of owner can't keep their dog from running out of park so doesn't let them off there.

I really hope you and your little boy can feel better soon and please don't utterly discount the idea of one day having another pup as what has happened to you is terrible but thankfully not an everyday occurance

such a terrible tragic end for the poor little puppy. My heart goes out to the Mum I can only imagine that we would all do the same to protect our children.

Another inconciderate owner of a powerful dog . And why I am always told off by my other half for walking my dogs alone.. very worrying.

I must admit I rarely go near the local parks during the summer months much prefer to road walk luckily we can free run in the garden and on the odd occasion we do go to the park my dogs are kept on the lead as there are too many children around, many who just run up  without asking if they can stroke the dogs ..they just dive in..I tell them nicely that they should always ask if they can stoke 'any dog' as they would never know if the dog wanted  to be petted. This annoys me as I really think its the parents job to teach thier children how to behave around dogs. Maybe its something else for Bev Cuddy to consider teaching this in the schools.

Roll on the winter months when we can walk in the park wrapped up in jumpers scarf and when non dog owners are curled up by the fire!

I realise and apologise I am going off on a tangent but this subject winds me up no end.

I rarely find the none dog owners a problem in our park- odd child runs up but its rare. bouncy daft dogs bombing up to mine without owner in sight however is not uncommon and I think unbeliveabley stupid and rude.

I do agree about winter though- the owners of horrible dogs don't seem to walk them much in winter and it makes off lead running in the park a far nicer experience.

> bouncy daft dogs bombing up to mine without owner in sight however is not uncommon and I think unbeliveabley stupid and rude.<

how true.... dont get me started on that one....

> How do I ensure this doesn't happen to me again? If I get another puppy for my boy how do I ensure the puppy is not killed by other dogs in Parks? How do I stay safe? What needs tO change in order to accomplish this? Assume for this question I get another kccs.

I don't think anything needs to change, other than the existing laws being enforced. Your experience was awful, but as someone else has said it's (thankfully) not an every day occurrence. I would try and equate it with bring hit by a drunk driver while walking on a pavement. It shouldn't happen, but it does (again thankfully rarely) and of course you have to continue to walk along pavements, no law has to change the chances of that happening to you again are extremely slim.

Would it be so difficult to ask for signs a little way after the entrance into the park that state "dogs off lead after this point" that way it is my choice whether I want to go deeper into the park or not.

First just to say how sorry we are that your family has had such a dreadful experience, and I hope your son is able to get over his fear. I think your suggestion is a good one and very fair to all. I am however really concerned about people who flout the dog control bye laws either through ignorance or quite deliberately: this morning in the space of 10 minutes in the park I have seen collarless dogs and dogs with owners and their children in a restricted children's play area. Out of 20 or so dogs my three and one other were the only ones on leads--and this is during the very busy summer holidays when more children are out than ever. They bring their bikes, kites and all sorts that can upset a dog not used to these things.

Signs warning people dogs will be off lead is good.

I think signs instructing people to put dogs back ON lead if approaching on lead dogs is a good idea, kind of like a 'common courtesy' list, along the lines of ' this park welcomes responsible dog owners - if you see a dog approaching on a lead, call yours to heel or put it back on lead. If you see children running about/shouting, call your dog back to heel or use the lead. Please pick up dog mess, it is an offence not to do so. Your dog must be wearing a collar and id tag in public. Please enjoy this park responsibly and do not allow your dog to be a nuisance or danger to other users'

Now ok, lots of people will probably ignore that, lots of people ignore lots of things, but there IS a section of society that is purely ignorant, rather than outright, wilfully 'orrible. These are the people who do not realise they are being a nuisance or dangerous, and get a shock (and usually get a bit shouty) when it is pointed out to them.

If you could cut down on even just that section of dog owning society, that would be great (i would propose similar  notices for all other park users too!).

As to how you can prevent such a horrific accident occurring agani - I have to say I really don't know for sure.

Be aware of what is going on around you, be ready to put yourself in front of your dog and use BIG scary body language and the 'voice of doom' to send rude approaching dogs away.

It may not feel like it to you now but it really IS a rare occurence that one dog kills another, the very reason it makes news is that it DOESNT happen all that often (not when you think about just HOW many dogs there are out there!).

I am pretty sure this was a freak accident if the owner really did a/help and b/ have the dog put down, those are the actions really of someone utterly horrified at what occurred, who did not see it coming and probably had no reason to suspect it would. Whether that was through ignorance or because there really was no reason to suspect it would I don't know.

Where there are big dogs and little dogs (and heck even little dogs can, and have, killed other little dogs) there will always be an element of risk. I have a Deerhound, she could quite easily kill a smaller dog if she chose to do so - touch wood, she never would, shes shown no inclinations to do so all her life and she lives with dogs much smaller than her.

I don't think that signs and the like will do anything.

The only thing that will work is making owners act more responsibly through compulsory training classes, licences etc and then ENFORCING the laws.

Too many chavs have dogs that are not trained or are trained to be aggressive; those are the people who need to be targeted.

I feel sory for the people in this story however I woiuld be wary of yet another knee jerk reaction. My mother visited me today after cutting thisstory out of the paper and tried to convince me to get rid of my very soppy 7 month old Bullmastiff as "obviously they are not safe around kids." I told her the same thing I would say to anyone - you can train a chihauhau to be agressive granted they wouldn't do as much damage as a large breed but it is all to do with responsibility of the owner.

Thanks for everyone's kind words.

I have decided to simply stick to very early morning walks when we get a new dog. If I want to venture out during the day with the kids it will be down the allotment or perhaps just road walking. I will save the running off lead for when we go to wales (we have a cabin in snowdonia, which is nice and secluded. Lots of sheep not too many other dogs) and leave it as that.

I keep having to tell myself it was a one off event. It's hard though not to be prejudice a little after such an event. I know that the majority of dog lovers are fab outdoorsy people like us, and having been part of that crowd for so long (Molly was not our first dog, we lost our previous dog in November 2010, I cannot let this stop us.

Those of you that have dogs know that your whole life revolves around the dog. Your daily routine fits around walks and it's like having another member if your family. When that's gone it's so hard, and the house is very empty without molly.

i heard you on the radio today and thought you put your point of view across brilliantly, i hope your little ones get over the fear and shock, and i have large and small dogs, and i make sure that mine have their collars on etc, but if anyone comes into the park when we are playing ball my two big dogs are called to me and put on the leads just because i do not want an incident, there nearly was one yesterday why a 11 year old boy walking a staffy the dog pulled him over he let go of the lead and the dog hurtled towards mine, i give both my boys their ball the thought was ball in mouth they will ignore other dog made them go into a down and stamped on the staffs leader this was all done in it seemed like slow motion but was seconds the staff throwing itself snapping and snarling at my two who where told stay down now as one started to shift and then walked back towards the young lad who was laughing and i said hear get your dog, as mine are not nice and he looked shocked and NEVER EVER let me catch you near my dogs again with that thing loose or i will report you for having an out of control dog . i was quite a distance from my lot and just said ok and they shot off playing , i saw the boy and his dad today when out walking and the dad was quite abusive to another person in the park that was trying to get the staff away from his dog when the boy saw me comming in he grabbed the dog and he started walking with his dad opposite direction.
there is a group of us meet up together most days rain or shine and walk our dogs, but we are all aware that our large pack could frighten people the dogs range from a great dane down to a chi and they all get ontogether really well but if we come across other people or dogs on a walk we always call ours in hold them or leash them and let people past us and we always get a thankyou for that even off cyclists thankyou as they hurtle past us,i do not think any signs in parks would work as the people who already are aware tend to watch their dogs and make sure they do not cause a nuisance, the people who do not care ,do not pick up poo, turf their dogs out onto the street everyday will still do what they want and it is the law abiding citizens that will abide by the law and feel aggreaved at nothing being done to the people who flout the law.there are already laws in many counties regarding dogs off leaders etc but nothing is being done about those that ignore the laws just a few weeks ago no dogs on a beach two rotties on the beach attack a small child the signs for the beach where clear enough even had dates on when and when not to walk dogs on beach but nothing was done no one was there to police it and no one can police it due to cut backs people would proberly complain about money being spent on a warden who maybe would only catch 5 people would it be really worth the wardens wage ?
Some areas do not have local dog wardens any more so it is so hard to get strays picked up, hard to get people educated where do we start in local schools, youth centers, leaflet drops, advertising on the tv,because people who don't care won't care and will always think that it is someone elses problem

Someone gave me a very good piece of advice to give you time to react an stop a dog coming towards you and your dog. Carry an umbrella - when you get those bounding dogs hurtling towards yours who are on leads. Just get your umbrella and walk towards the dogs, opening and closing it quickly. Usually enough the stop an exhuberant dog in their track getting to your dogs. I have used this once with success to stop a dog off lead jumping all over my little dog (she's scared of exhuberant dogs and has to be kept on the lead because she bolt!).

I'm glad to see others agree that early morning walks or slightly wet days are when you get to meet the more sociable dogs (and dog owners) and I always go to "busy" places in unsociable hours in the summer to make sure my dogs can go on a walk without encountering unruly dogs. I changed our walk times ever since I walk with 2 dogs on a very popular dog walking heath and a lab bounded over to us, jumped all over my dogs then jumped on me (all playful and no malice meant) and left me with two spooked dogs and a huge bruise on my thigh. The owner's reaction: shouting "He's friendly from a distance - no effort to recall him - a vague sorry from a distance and walking away without calling the dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

I do see red now when I come across what I consider "Irresponsible dog owners", I'm such a grumpy woman!! :-(

You are not alone......... ;)

> Someone gave me a very good piece of advice to give you time to react an stop a dog coming towards you and your dog. Carry an umbrella

I may have posted before about the out-of-control, bored stiff, home-alone Staffy that once belonged to some delightful [not] neighbours. His trick was to escape into other people's gardens, and the lady next door was terrified of him, not only because her garden was his first port of call, and she had a 6 year old child, but mainly because he chased her into the house several times when she was hanging her washing out.

I told her about the umbrella, and bless her she did take one out with her and opened it as I suggested, but the dog just kept on coming and in the end she threw it at the dog as a last-ditch attempt to get inside her own back door.

> I would like to see designated dog parks or areas where dogs can be excercised off lead.. Away from children's areas. All dogs Not in the designated dog area would then have to be on a lead.

I absolutely agree with you.

I believe all dogs should be on leads in public areas and that they should only be off lead in council provided fenced areas in parks and on private land.

I know that good dog owners will say that it's not fair that the majority of good owners are being punished because of the few bad owners but, every dog or child/adult that is hurt or killed by an off lead dog is one too many.

And if we had this rule it is easier to police. 'Under control' is so open to interperatation (sp).

As others have said, dogs are dogs and so you can never be 100% sure on recall etc.

Anyway, that is my opinion and i know it won't be popular so apologies in advance.

> I believe all dogs should be on leads in public areas and that they should only be off lead in council provided fenced areas in parks and on private land.
>
> I know that good dog owners will say that it's not fair that the majority of good owners are being punished because of the few bad owners but, every dog or child/adult that is hurt or killed by an off lead dog is one too many.

Children die or are injured on playground equipment. Should we close all parks? Many Children and and adults are killed and injured by cars. should we ban those? Children die falling off bikes. should we stop them riding bikes? Children are killed by their parents. I would probably agree that these parents shouldn't have kids. but the majority of us raise our kids well.
Everything in life carries a risk. Unless people spend their life closeted away in a little room doing nothing then there is always the risk that something could injure or kill them. Peanuts kill people, wasps kill people, you could choke and die on a piece of chocolate but I certainly don't want that banned.

We will NEVER be able to legislate against all the risks in life and even if we could write the laws it would not be possible to enforce them all. Life these days is very much safer that it was years ago so but some risks cannot be eliminated.

I also feel there is a danger with all this anti dog legislation that is sends the message out to the general public that, yes dogs are dangerous wild beasts and there is a risk . We could legislate more now and have leash laws. And then next time there is an attack there is a call for more laws so we ban dogs from anything other than road walking. Then next time we ban on dogs over a certain size, and so on, until we end up in a situation maybe a hundred years from now when people can't own pet dogs. they can only be seen in zoos caged like wild animals. As a dog lover I want my grandchildren to have the same chances I have to own dogs.

I really feel that as dog lovers we should be banding together as the voice of reason against all these calls for laws and bans not shouting loudly for them. The risks are much smaller of being hurt by a dog than so many other things in life and without dogs society would be so much poorer.

> Children die or are injured on playground equipment.

But this is constantly reviewed and, I am sure, we have all seen many changes carried out in recent years to play areas reducing those dangers. 
Yes, life carries risks but we don't shrug our shoulders we look at ways in which we can reduce the chances of something awful happening.

>> Children die or are injured on playground equipment.
> But this is constantly reviewed and, I am sure, we have all seen many changes carried out in recent years to play areas reducing those dangers.&nbsp;
> Yes, life carries risks but we don't shrug our shoulders we look at ways in which we can reduce the chances of something awful happening.

Yes we look to make things safer but at the end of the day the only way to totally eliminate the risk would be to ban all playground equipment. We don't do this because we recognise that the benefits of playing out doors outweigh the small risks of injury. Although this dog attack was horrific, there are relatively few dog attacks which result in this sort of sad outcome. and when you consider the number of dogs in the country and the good they do and the benefits to society far outweigh the risks.

I heard a theory some time ago  that the reason there is such an outcry when there is a dog attack is because of our inbuilt genetic fear of fierce animals with big teeth. Our ancestors needed to be scared of wild animals to keep themselves safe. In the same way as some people are scared of snakes or spiders there is a genetic fear of predatory animals hardwired into people. When you look objectively at the number of dog attacks and the types of injuries compared to say car accidents and those injuries, Dogs are a miniscule risk to our society compared to cars. We are just more shocked by dog attacks because we have only had cars for 100 years or so and have not had time to evolve an inbuilt fear of fast moving metal boxes.

I agree, Traffic calming measures are put in place to help with people speeding in town and reduce the risk. To me, putting a dog on a lead in busy places where a lot of children are running about is NOT going against dogs! I won't "join a camp" if I don't agree with something! I own dogs, I think I should be allowed to walk them where I want but I also think I'm quite reasonable and will put my dogs on a lead when needed. Don't see it as a breach of my freedom!
I'm not saying we can avoid all risks or accidents in life but the kind of accident described here can be! Would you walk your dog without a collar in a busy park? Knowing that you wouldn't have anyway to hold on to it, should you need to. I wouldn't want my dogs to be running loose in a busy park anyway (they're small and easily dognapped as they are friendly and easily approached).
Grumpy woman's back again :-(

> Dogs are a miniscule risk to our society compared to cars.

Indeed but societies need for cars appears to be, for the time being, greater.
The measures we take will always be balanced against such things. As the next poster said we do take steps to minimise the dangers from cars bearing in mind our need for them to be there and so likewise with dogs. 
Do they need to be in areas set aside for families to enjoy?  Is there enough space in cities to allow both? If not should other ristrictions apply to enable them to safely share?  I think these are all reasonable questions to ask.

> Indeed but societies need for cars appears to be, for the time being, greater.

Presently yes but in the long run I am not so sure, but that is a whole other debate.

> Do they need to be in areas set aside for families to enjoy?

Why not set up fenced dog free zones within the parks rather than making the whole place dog free.

Not every car or playground accident results in a frantic call for more safety measures there is currently acceptance that with the good comes some not so good. But it seems that with almost every incident comes a knee jerk reaction to call for more bans, and more restrictions rather than perhaps calling for more education and understanding of dogs needs which in the long run would benefit both dogs and society. We cannot stop all risk from dogs  Legislation is never going to be the answer unless we totally ban dogs altogether so instead of calling for more we should be trying to direct society toward understanding the dogs needs and instincts etc.

Most people these days have so little to do with dogs they do think of them as harmless furry kids and so are therefore totally surprised when something like this happens. Children don't meet dogs when walking to school when once upon a time mum would walk the family dog to school every day. Dogs don't meet other dogs as we are all so busy leashing them up to keep them away from other dogs so the majority of them never learn how to interact with their own species.
It is time we worked out how to get society to understand dogs again unless we want a future without them.

I have to say I am saddened by the number of people on this forum who should be the dogs proponents all calling for more control, more bans more laws.

> I own dogs, I think I should be allowed to walk them where I want but I also think I'm quite reasonable and will put my dogs on a lead when needed. Don't see it as a breach of my freedom!

no that is what we need. more education about how to manage dogs, how to be considerate to other people and how to manage dogs safely bearing mind that they are animals and have instincts. More education for non dog owners to understand how to be around dogs.
We don't need more laws and bans which is what people seem to be asking for.

I wouldn't walk my dog in a park without a collar but I have been educated that it is not a good idea. so i9 voluntarily have a collar on my dog. and would whether or not it was the law. We need to be educating people about how to train and manage their dogs. not making more laws.

> Why not set up fenced dog free zones within the parks rather than making the whole place dog free.
>

Indeed, if there is room to do so and some parks do it that way but when space is limited I think it more acceptable to society to have the dogs fenced in rather than the humans :)  Generally, I think the use of leads works best when space is small.

> I have to say I am saddened by the number of people on this forum who should be the dogs proponents all calling for more control, more bans more laws.

I love dogs but I'm rather fond of humans too :)

> I love dogs but I'm rather fond of humans too :-)

I also do like people but I am just trying to re balance the argument a bit. I feel that these days dogs are getting a very bad deal when the huge majority never do any wrong and even when things do go wrong in a lot of cases it is down to human error. With hind sight we can say that the owner should not have taken the collar off her dog, or not have let it off the lead but maybe a bit of education as to the way her dog could react to a small dog or screaming child would have made her make a different decision in the first place.

A place near here has recently introduced a dogs on leads policy which people continually ignore because they can see no need for it. They have walked their dogs off lead in this place for many years. the problem is because they don't always clear up after their dogs. rather than making a law that nobody can enforce why not put more  dog bins around and maybe even put pooh bags out. Keeping dogs on the lead doesn't stop fouling or get people to clear up and it actually seems to me that fouling is worse because people are rebelling against the leash law.

Educating people is good but we also need to consider whether other interventions are necessary.
For instance children are give road safety education but they remain vulnerable because they are human and they are young so we also have traffic calming measures where they are likely to be more frequently found.