Am i to believe that TMs cannot gain a stud book number or junior warrent?

Hi Amanda,

No stud book number and pretty sure no JW either.
Jeff.

Thats a shame,just been reading that accredited breeders can now get one if the have bred 3 ch show winners:(

Get one what Amanda J, bit confused can you be more explicit please.

Welcome to world of rare breeds!

To get the ABS  Stud Book accolade in a Rare Breed you need 3 BOB's  per dog at Ch show with three different dogs bred by you. So 9 BOB's with 3 dogs equally...................NOT easy I know and harder than if were are a CC breed!

stud book number

You know I am still confused, put it down to my age but please sort me out, do people now get stud book number as in those joining the ABS.

I thought stud book numbers went to dogs not the owners/breeders and yes understand about rare breeds, their ability to receive a SBN would be different as others are only available when CC are.

When you join the ABS, there are 4 accolades you can get. The fourth is Excellence which goes to breeders that have bred several Champions and must be nominated by a breed club. The other 3 are easier: 1. being a member of a breed club. 2. Having registered at least 5 litters (experience). 3. Having bred at least 3 dogs that have gained their stud book number. You get a little symbol next to your name on the KC website etc to show what accolades you have earned.

Oh and forgot to say -rare breeds CANNOT gain a stud book number or a JW but the ABS allows breeders of such breeds to instead get the SN accolade by having bred 3 different dogs that have won BOB at champshows. Which in a way sometimes may be harder -I think I've only bred one dog that has got a BOB at champshows (more than once though) but have bred 7 with stud book numbers.

I think so, this is my first rare breed so wernt sure,looked up on the kc website and read about stud book numbers are now given to accredited breeders who get bob with dogs they have bred, dont ask me how this works havent got a clue,but think its out of order as we do all the work ,showing paying out hundreds of pounds etc and get no recognition for it :)

No amanda j you have got that wrong -you CANNOT get a stud book number with a rare breed at conformation shows. You're confusing it with the ABS accolade. http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=2887

showing paying out hundreds of pounds etc

With considerably lower entry fees than ticket breeds!!

I know you cant get them at shows ,just read it again  understand it a bit more .

Thank you Goldmail the thread had me searching the Gazette to see how these strange changes would work, makes sense now it is an accolade we are talking off not a SBN nor a JW that had my mind racing even more - LOL how would a breeder win a JW not me that's for sure passed 18month long long ago. :-)

I'm not even show quality myself. :D

I dont dispute that non cc breeds are cheaper to enter,but i would love to make my dog up and when we get CCs ill pay the same amount as everyone else willingly ,we still have to pay petrol ,accomodation etc the same as you, so i dont think a couple of quid less to enter a dog matters,seeing as that difference gets you, tickets ,stud book numbers,JW. and non CC breeds dont .

> I'm not even show quality myself. :D

:D

The thing is, getting championship status changes a breed forever.You will have just a small handful of shows with tickets on offer (8 initially) and from then on you can only qualify for Crufts at them. I don't know how many dogs are around in TMs but certainly in my breed (we went to CC status in 2006 so I have been through it) we never get enough entries for anyone to gain JW points and hence in 5 years now there still hasn't been a single JW winner and isn't likely to be either. Entries at the shows without tickets have dropped dramatically as people are suddenly only interested in tickets, and hence we are losing breed classes at many shows (open shows too) as people no longer travel for anything but a ticket show. And with just a few shows with CCs on offer we find they are badly spaced out -for years -until this year in fact- ALL our shows were held in between March and September (May-Sept if you didn't count Crufts), so 6 months of the year without any, and several are in places where no exhibitors of the breed lives, so we all have really long journeys which means we're even less likely to enter the shows without tickets as we have spent all the money on petrol for the others -which often follow each other as well, with 2 or 3 over consecutive weekends. You get people only interested in winning tickets whereas when the breed was classified as rare everyone in it had a genuine interest in the breed, not just winning. Sure it's fun to win CCs, but all in all I felt the old days without them were better.

With considerably lower entry fees than ticket breeds!!

Not for Crufts we pay the same as CC breeds.

Peanuts

Crufts is ONE show a year!

> The thing is, getting championship status changes a breed forever.You will have just a small handful of shows with tickets on offer (8 initially) and from then on you can only qualify for Crufts at them. I don't know how many dogs are around in TMs but certainly in my breed (we went to CC status in 2006 so I have been through it) we never get enough entries for anyone to gain JW points and hence in 5 years now there still hasn't been a single JW winner and isn't likely to be either. Entries at the shows without tickets have dropped dramatically as people are suddenly only interested in tickets, and hence we are losing breed classes at many shows (open shows too) as people no longer travel for anything but a ticket show. And with just a few shows with CCs on offer we find they are badly spaced out -for years -until this year in fact- ALL our shows were held in between March and September (May-Sept if you didn't count Crufts), so 6 months of the year without any, and several are in places where no exhibitors of the breed lives, so we all have really long journeys which means we're even less likely to enter the shows without tickets as we have spent all the money on petrol for the others -which often follow each other as well, with 2 or 3 over consecutive weekends. You get people only interested in winning tickets whereas when the breed was classified as rare everyone in it had a genuine interest in the breed, not just winning. Sure it's fun to win CCs, but all in all I felt the old days without them were better.

Yes. I agree 100%. I would do more breed shows if we didn't have CCs. I feel it has spoilt showing for the breed. I wish they would remove them again. If the entries keep on falling maybe they will.

We do pay less (except Crufts) but as the old saying goes you get what you pay for! Tacked on to other entries for judges, fewer critiques and more waiting around than most and yet at some shows we have more entries than CC breeds.
Taking all that into consideration I still don't want CCs! :-)

Jeff.

Ah Jeff -you see what I mean. Tickets isn't always the best for a breed. :) (And Rubysmum of course knows it first hand being in the same breed as me.) The bad news is, in Malinois we STILL often have the waiting around after other breeds!

I've been through it in cats as well, one of my breeds I started in when there was just a handful at shows, no CCs. You knew every single breeder and exhibitor back then and everyone was in it for the breed. These days it is very popular and most of the breeders I've never even met.

> I think so, this is my first rare breed so wernt sure,looked up on the kc website and read about stud book numbers are now given to accredited breeders who get bob with dogs they have bred, dont ask me how this works havent got a clue,but think its out of order as we do all the work ,showing paying out hundreds of pounds etc and get no recognition for it

Amanda, if you look at this another way; the quality of the dog is entirely down to the breeding and good breeders deserve the recognition

I have a dog - previously a rare breed but got CC status this year - and I've taken him to as many shows as I, and he, can manage.  He's done pretty well at Open Shows with Best Puppy and a Group 2, has a Res Best Dog and Best Dog at Champ Shows and got a Reserve CC at just 8 months.  Would he have got these results if I hadn't taken him?  NO    But I cannot take credit for anything more than his training and his show condition, and even that is partly down to breeding as he has a superb temperament, correct coat, and a gorgeous body that's no effort to maintain!!

I've heard it said that a great handler can take a mediocre dog and do quite well with it; but in our case I'm no great handler and I suspect my lad does well in spite of me, not because of me!  I'd be thrilled to get him the recognition he deserves and to see my breeder acknowledged for producing quality puppies from health tested parents that do well for work and in the show ring.  He probably won't get his JW due to rapidly falling numbers at shows without CC's this year but it won't be for a lack of class wins and I do hope I can help his breeder in the meantime. :)

Have noticed that when a breed comes off the rare list and onto the breeds with CCs the numbers being shown will increase for a while and then drop right off, almost like once they have achieved their aims they are disappointed with what they have and rapidly loose interest.

Yes i agree with that:)

Fully agree with Jeff.....and we only get 5 Champ shows a year with classes including Crufts..Oh and the rosettes for Best NSC are always different to everyone else`s....At WKC I was the only one with a rosette on everyone else had tartan square pin badges but I still wouldn`t want CCs :)

I also agree with breeders getting recognition for their hard work in their breed :)