I think this is the best place to put this:

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, keep your dogs on the lead if you can't trust them to come back to you!! I have just had the very very sad news from a friend that a little dog she bred 2 years ago died from his injuries from being attacked by 2 dogs out of control. They chased him, caught him and mauled him so badly that he died from his injuries.
I like letting my dogs run off the lead BUT more and more I wish there was a common rule that dogs had to be kept on a lead at all times when things like these happen. I'm just very sad and shocked and if I had the owner(s) in front of me, I don't think I could trust myself to stay calm and collected! No doubt their excuse would be "they are friendly! they wanted to play! If you dog hadn't run away! etc..." Awful death for such a young dog :-( :-(

Sorry but I have no intention of keeping my dogs on a lead.  What happened was unfortunate and heartbreaking and naturally you have an emotional reaction.

More dogs are killed by being PTS due to behaviour problems or killed in road accidents than are killed by other dogs.

You also need to understand that although the OUTCOME and the IMPACT is the same, the cause of such deaths are not necessarily the result of aggression but predatory drift which can happen in the best trained dogs with the best temperament.

It does not make the loss any easier but please do not make unreasonable requests.  If I wanted to keep a dog on a lead I would get another breed than the ones I have.

I agree that although that is a horrible, horrible situation and I wouldn't wish it on anyone I still do not think dogs should have to be kept on lead.  The owners should be sensible enough to not be letting their aggressive dogs off lead.  I love seeing my dogs run and play with other dogs off lead but I try to always make sure I have spoken to the other owners first to check all are friendly.  I do have a breed that doesn't go off lead, although she is fantastic with people she is not with dogs and I can't help but feel abit sorry for her missing out on all the free running my Rotties and Staffie do.

People need to be more aware of what they have on the end of the lead...if they cannot be trusted then they should indeed stay attached by a lead to their owner or be muzzled incase they do get loose.

I am so sorry for your poor friend. Tell her to be brave and go to the police as those 2 dogs need PTs immediately before some other dog owner suffers.

Dogs not coming back is one of my pet hates and I currently have a retriever staying who does this and he knows it!! Kicks his heels up and flies off, treats make him worse, he sees them as complete bribery, evenfeeding them to other dogs does nothing!! So he's on lead exercise only! Can't be trusted means can't run around for next 5 days then a line!! Nothing beats teaching a recall, including the owner who's dogs attacked, that should have been a recall for sure.

Your poor friend can't imagine how she's feeling. Very sad news.

Hmmm do you not think having the dogs PTS may be a little drastic?

Why do you think they need PTS?

Would you suggest that if these dogs had killed a cat, a rabbit, a hare, a squirrel that they also need to be PTS?

What about Predatory Drift, if the dead dog was a victim of this, is it not possible for the owners of said dogs to have only one dog off lead at a time or kept on leads etc?

I have to say I am very shocked that a dog trainer would suggest such a thing............

In any case there is not a lot that is usually done with dog on dog attacks.  It does not come under the DDA.

tohme canyou explain the term predatory drfit I can guess what it means but would be interested to learn about it

A dog owner has been ordered to keep their pet under control after it attacked and killed a Yorkshire terrier in a Biggin Hill park.

Bromley Council secured a control order from Bromley Magistrates' Court after an incident in the recreation ground in August.

The six-year-old terrier was being taken for a walk when he was attacked and killed by one of a pair of Weimaraners.

Following council and police investigations, magistrates ordered the owner of the Weimaraner to keep the pet dog on a lead and muzzled at all times while in a public place.

Executive councillor for environment Cllr Colin Smith said: "Although incidents like this are infrequent, as the vast majority of dog owners do behave responsibly, there has been a growing trend of attacks like this that have to be cracked down on.

This was a seriously upsetting incident and there have been similar cases recently. We need to remind all dog owners of their duty to control their animals.

It's simply not right or fair that other people's loved pets are being killed in this way."

The order was made under section 2 of the Dog Act 1871, which gives courts the power to make owners keep pets muzzled and on leads in public places. In extreme cases, the court can order that the dog be destroyed.

Predatory Drift

As you read the above story, did you think "shocking, these dogs were obviously aggressive" "they should never have been let off the lead in public" "my dogs would never do such a thing"?

If you did then I hope that the following information may help you look at this event in a slightly different way and in order to prevent a similar occurrence.  Whilst the dogs in question may have a history of predatory behaviour, the actions may well have been as a result of something slightly different; predatory drift.

What is it?

Predatory Drift is a sudden, and drastic change in a dog's demeanour that is characterised by behaviours associated with hunting small prey.

The term is usually used to describe a medium - large dog which has suddenly and uncharacteristically targeted a smaller dog as prey (dinner). 

Predatory Drift is NOT aggression, but it can mean injury or death for small dogs (or puppies).

Predatory Drift happens when the larger dog's instinct to hunt are triggered when play escalates or gets too much like the real thing (an out of control chase game).  It can occur when a small dog/puppy gets scared or injured and squeals or wriggles in a way that makes them look like prey, It can happen just because the size difference says, "You are comparatively bite-sized, or move like something that is bite-sized, and I am a canine predator."

The most alarming fact about Predatory Drift is that it can happen even with well-behaved, well-socialised dogs who play well and often with no aggression.
Dogs which are triggered into predatory drift, may never have been in a dog fight, and be generally obedient.  This is no protection against predatory drift.  It is not a "good dog/bad dog" problem.

Predatory Drift is not about how brave, strong, feisty, or fearless the small dog acts.  Or how well your large dog plays and listens to you, or even how many times they have met, played with or been around a small dog.

Predatory Drift can even happen between two dogs that know each other well and have lived, played, and or known each other for years.  In the right situation, a sudden shift happens and the predatory sequence (like dominoes falling) is triggered and completed with lightening fast speed.

While it is not a problem seen every day, all it takes is the slightest trigger -an injury, a fight, a response to something startling or scary.  Predatory Drift is a SIZE MATTER! It usually involves a grab and shake, which instantly breaks the small dog's neck.  There is no time to react.  This is not a fight, it does not escalate.  There is a trigger and then it is over.

What can we do about it?

Exercise particular care if you have a large dog interacting with a very much smaller one (including a puppy) and be aware that when you have 2+ dogs they often "pack  up" and are more susceptible to the phenomenon.  If you have a dog with high prey drive in the mix then the risks increase.

I often meet a lady with 4 Bichon Frises where I regularly walk; because I have one dog with an extremly high prey drive and another with a reasonably high one I only allow one of them to interact off lead with these dogs to avoid any possibility of such an event.

It is worth remembering that is sometimes easier to label dogs as x, y or z than to educate ourselves about dog behaviour! 

Looking at this from the opposite perspective - I have a dog with issues! He is always muzzled and on lead, my 2 girls are always now on lead as well because it's just not fair on the boy. We had a situation a month or so ago, where a lady let her little dog approach mine. She had 3 dogs, all let off lead before entering the park, I saw these dogs coming in, so changed direction and walked away to avoid confrontation. One of her dogs continued to follow, I put all of mine in the sit, and called for her to retrieve her dog, making it clear that Dave was not friendly to approaches of this nature. She said nothing, but continued to walk towards me - as did her dog. It was getting a bit too close for comfort, so I continued walking away, although by now my beastie was showing an unhealthy interest in her dog. With that the little dog ran into the middle of my pack of three, my girls are walked on halties, and as mentioned above the boy is muzzled, so I managed to get them away without any harm done to the llittle dog, but should something of happened, you can bet the headline would be savage pack of Rottweilers attacked this poor little defenceless dog. However, I was the responsible owner. All mine were on lead, under control, and the "problem child" was muzzled. I'm just grateful that I was walking with a friend and her 2 small dogs, who reassured me that she would be a witness on my behalf (should I need it), as I had done everything in my power to prevent this happening.

So whilst I do feel for your friend, and the situation shouldn't have happened - I would just like to put the other point across. Agreed that untrustworthy dogs should be kept under control - but that should be the case regardless of size.

Thank you thome that was very interesting and puts a different light in things I have heard about.
I also have dogs of different sizes so will watch carefully and rethink perhaps some of what I do to protect little one even more .
If a dog has exhibited this kind of behaviour does this put the likelhood of second attack to be higher ?

tohme, I understand not wanting to leash your dogs, but your post seems slightly ambiguous: are you saying that even if your dog had killed another by reason of predatory drift you still would not walk the dog on a lead in public places?

I cannot see anything ambiguous in my post at all. If I had a dog that had killed another dog due to predatory drift, I would make damn sure my dog was never put in that position again.

I am fortunate that I live in a lovely rural area. It is actually unusual to meet many other dogs when out on my walks. When we go over the fields my dog is always free running. His recall is perfect and if I do see someone coming I always call him back and put him on the lead. There's 2 reasons for this. 1) Like Staffy, I like to make sure the other dogs are friendly before I allow Reggie to play. 2) Some people are quite nervous if they see a large breed running towards them. I feel it is just common courtesy to give them the option of approaching or not.
i would hate to be in a position where he didn't have the option to walk off lead. Dogs love to run and with the best will in the world I couldn't keep up the pace!!! lol

FF first of all I would not use the word "attack" in this situation. After all you do not say the dog "attacked" a rabbit when it chases it, catches it and kills it do you?

This is my whole point.

Whilst the impact and outcome are the same, the motives are different.

Anyway if a dog exhibited predatory drift in this manner then, as dogs are obedient to the laws of learning, having had "success" they are more likely to do it again, especially as remember the entire activity of hunt, stalk, chase, etc releases endorphins into the body and makes the dogs feel good.

This is why it is so vital to redirect prey drive onto balls etc and if you cannot then keep dogs on a lead.........

tohme, the ambiguity came from the statement that if you'd wanted a dog on a lead you'd have a different breed.

Predatory drift is not an uncommon reaction and the evidence seems to show that it can occur in any breed, although some seem more predisposed to it; the chances increase with a disparity in dog size/age and in pack situations (e.g. two or more on one attacks), although I've seen it happen in a one on one chase that then turned into something far more serious, and that it frequently ends in serious injury rather than death. The point I'm making is that this combination of factors can happen anywhere, at any time and that if one seriously wants to reduce the risk it's hard to see how it can be done without leashing dogs, at least in heavily used spaces like municipal parks.

I will try and clarify.

Some breed clubs advise that dogs are never let off the lead eg huskies, malamutes and of course some sighhounds. Therefore however attracted I am to say a Malamute I would never own one for THIS reason. 

One of my joys is watching my dogs run off the lead so I have breeds that I can let off with complete confidence.  Not because those do not have any prey drive or they could not be subject to predatory drift (as you will clearly see by my second post on the subject where I state what sort of dogs I have and what precautions I take) but because I have excellent control over my dogs and I can avoid most hazards.

If you do not have sufficient control over your dogs; if you do not practice "defensive dog walking" (and by that I mean using the same techniques as you would when driving ie observation, anticipation, planning and restraint) then of course you should not have the dog off a lead in many situations.

I can have my dogs off the lead in municipal park provided I have followed all of the above.

HTH

OF course this is not the case for all dog owners.....................

Thanks tohme, that makes sense. I have given up on our local park, not because I can't control my dogs off lead but I am quite sure there are lots of owners and dogs there who absolutely are not trustworthy with their recall. So when we are in the park they stay on the lead, and I make a point of driving them to a more secluded area for free running, where the most that can happen is that they catch a rabbit. While they are on the loose they are practising their recall constantly, to whistle and voice, and I would say their recall is excellent (based on calling them away from deer and rabbits :)) although one of them is not to be trusted with hens at all.

Thanks tohme this has been quite eye opening. I too choose secluded areas to run mine off lead to avoid any incidents

Thanks to those of you who empathised... it has been quite a shock! I still maintained than a lot of people who let their dogs off the lead have no control over their dogs and should not be allowed to let their dogs off the lead! I KNOW dog behaviour and I can see these dogs worked as a mini pack and were chasing... I still think the dogs should NOT have been off the lead and to be honest I don't think they should be PTS, I think the owner should be made responsible!!!
Come on tohme, you must have come across dogs which you have thought "why are they off the lead?"

I agree that many people who have dogs have no control over their dogs and really should not have them off the lead, I have met many of them, I tend not to so much now........... ;)

Nobody is denying that these dogs were chasing are they?  Nobody is denying they worked as a pack are they?

And i think you will find that there are several people on this forum who KNOW dog behaviour, but I fail to understand  your point?

There are an increasing number of places where Dog Control Orders are in place due to this very scenario or similar, however these incidents are RARE.

Remember, dogs NEED to be exercised adequately as part of the 5 freedoms.

There are some drivers who drive without insurance, licence, MOT or even drink, do we say ALL drivers should be banned?  No. We penalise the transgressors.

this sort of thinking is what led to the DDA............

I just think having dogs on leads will stop the "anti-dog" brigade from banning them from more and more places! This time it was a dog who was attacked but as you'll see on another thread, it can be worse. The freedom to run for a dog is only depending on whether the person who "owns" the dog has control over this free running!

I'd rather have to keep my dogs on the leads than be banned from parks for instance. In an ideal world everyone will be responsible enough to decide where to let their dogs off the lead but unfortunately this is not the case!

I'm just very disappointed that you think this is somewhat justifiable :-(

If the other thread to which you refer is the Bull mastiff attacking the cavalier, the injuries the woman suffered were "self inflicted" as she placed her hands in the dog's mouth; utter madness.

What exactly are disappointed in?  What do you think some of us are "justifying"; please clarify.

Because if you think for ONE moment that I believe that the death of ANY dog is justifiable, please allow me to correct you!

I totally agree with what you have said.  Years ago I worked and lived in at a G.S kennel and had my two dogs with me (different breed than I have now) These dogs had all been regularly walked together off lead but on this particular day I was walking my dogs across the fields and the owner was walking six of her G.S´s across the other side of the fields and they spotted one of my dogs and came running over but then it changed into a chase.  They caught him and by the time we got to them they had ripped open his throat and stomache and the only way I could stop them was to lay my body over his. I never blamed the dogs or the owner, she was just as devestated as I was and we never knew what triggered this off but it taught us it didnt matter how well trained they were once that instinct took over that was it. 

Because of the hot weather my dogs are walked at 6.30 am and 9 pm and we dont often see people but I still practice defensive dog walking, not because of my dogs but other peoples dogs. My boys have never been allowed to run up to another dog or person and I know when we have been out sometimes that the owners havent even seen me and my dogs and I have been watching them from a long way off and changed direction etc to avoid them.  My boys are also ball obsessed so I would only have to shout ball and hold it up in the air and everything else would be forgotton, always good to have as a back up.

Whatever breed I have had over the years and no matter how good they are I have always practiced defensive dog walking.

As you do I get great pleasure in walking my dogs and watching them run about and chase rabbits etc and I know I can do this in complete confidence and always feel so sorry for dogs that for whatever reason have to be kept on a lead.  We are very lucky were we live as there are lemon groves and big open spaces with no near roads or other livestock.  A dog walkers paradise.

I'm disappointed about the fact that some of the posters seem to say (I may have misunderstood the posts but this is the message that seem to come across) that walking dogs on the lead shouldn't be imposed in some areas (after all you wouldn't let you dog off the lead in a field where you now there's livestock for instance). I agree that we can't avoid all "accidents" but I do think some can be avoided and we don;t need to wait to see IF the dog in question is a danger and attacks another dog before something is done.
JMHO

> I just think having dogs on leads will stop the "anti-dog" brigade from banning them from more and more places!

I disagree.  I think tohme has made some very valid points and expressed them very clearly.  I too do not think that forcing ALL dog owners to keep their dogs on a lead is a satisfatory answer.  Sweeping catch-all statements such as that you've made above and this one "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, keep your dogs on the lead if you can't trust them to come back to you!!"  lead to ill thought out and knee jerk legislation which will not help anyone.

I agree that there are some locations where keeping dogs on a lead is desirable but even then, it's not ALL parks, ALL dogs or ALL owners either.  Your friends situation is truly ghastly and almost unimaginable but must be looked at in the cold light of day by those in full possession of the facts.  It would be inadvisable to make legislation based on this one experience and most severe episodes must be investigated and assessed accordingly.

Just as aside I know several busy little dogs that are somewhat distracted on a recall and get engrossed in ferreting about in a hedge.  It's a bit frustrating to the owners but you cannot assume that resistance to recall is always going to lead to a problem or is dangerous for their dog or others. 

I really hope that these owners are able to recover and my thoughts are with them

I'm not asking for legislation, just appealing to the many owners who let their dogs off the leads when they don't have a good recall! What's wrong about that. If my plea offended you, I'm sorry! I thought doggy people would understand the pain from losing a dog in such a way.
I can see my views are not welcomed, sorry to have voiced them.

I'm disappointed about the fact that some of the posters seem to say (I may have misunderstood the posts but this is the message that seem to come across) that walking dogs on the lead shouldn't be imposed in some areas (after all you wouldn't let you dog off the lead in a field where you now there's livestock for instance). I agree that we can't avoid all "accidents" but I do think some can be avoided and we don;t need to wait to see IF the dog in question is a danger and attacks another dog before something is done.JMHO

Nobody is saying any such thing, Dog Control Orders already exist in many many places and they are on the increase.

And yes we DO need to see fi the dog in question is a danger before something is done.

The last time this sort of thing happened it resulted in the DDA a wholly unsatisfactory Act which has resulted in the death and suffering of a lot of harmless animals, and has still not STOPPED people being attacked or killed!

I'm not asking for legislation, just appealing to the many owners who let their dogs off the leads when they don't have a good recall! What's wrong about that. If my plea offended you, I'm sorry! I thought doggy people would understand the pain from losing a dog in such a way.I can see my views are not welcomed, sorry to have voiced them.

As dog owners we can see BOTH sides of the coin, and as in most issues, there are pros and cons to all "solutions"

Also you wished for a "common rule" what is that if not legislation?

Just asking for the return of common sense maybe? Anyway, nevermind - I'll go back to my dogs and hope I never find myself in this situation.

ludivine1517, don't think your views aren't welcomed because some people don't agree with them--this forum would be much the poorer if only one point of view were voiced. Having dogs off lead is a privilege we and the dogs enjoy when excellent recall is instilled--anything less is an exercise in foolhardiness or worse. My own concern is predatory drift is not uncommon, can be triggered by seemingly quite innocent activities and that once that happens things zoom out of control too fast for us to stop it. We're always told, "don't set the dog up to fail" and letting dogs off lead in busy parks full of hazards falls into that category for me no matter how good my dogs' recall is. I choose to keep mine leashed in those circumstances but take my dogs to relatively empty areas so they don't miss out on free running.

thans Jay15 - you've expressed my thought exactly regarding when to keep dogs on a lead.

as for all views being welcomed - not convinced it's everyone's opinion :-(
Sweeping catch-all statements such as that you've made above and this one "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, keep your dogs on the lead if you can't trust them to come back to you!!"  lead to ill thought out and knee jerk legislation which will not help anyone.

I didn't think my little voice had so much power! I certainly don't think it required such a statement either!:-(

ludivine1517  I'm not sure why you would assume your 'views' aren't welcomed simply because some of us disagree with you.

I've recently done some work on Dog Control Orders as the matter was brought to our Parish Council by a villager who had been involved in an aggressive situation with an off lead dog.  It's very easy to be swayed by the power of their emotion but so important to remain objective and remember that each case (and the personalities, canine and human) should be looked at carefully.

Councillors were directed to this site to read a balanced view from a range of interested dog people.  Opposing views are a necessary part of reasoned debate and there is no need to feel devalued or slighted if some readers disagree with you and choose to say so :)

Edited to say: incidentally there are plenty of situations where I choose to keep my dogs on a lead.  However, I'm against too much legislation attempting to control my 'common sense' approach

that's fair enough - just don't take my message as propaganda FOR dog control order, that's all! Glad we have this cleared up.

> We're always told, "don't set the dog up to fail" and letting dogs off lead in busy parks full of hazards falls into that category for me no matter how good my dogs' recall is.

I agree with you totally.
My dog is never let completely loose, only put on a long-line, but whenever there are of children or joggers, or dogs he's not met (or anything that could possibly trigger a chase/prey/protective instinct  - even though he doesn't show these traits ), he is put on his short lead. I'd rather be safe than sorry every time.

mastifflover, the obvious 'weird outlines' of people on bikes or the speed joggers move at that disturb a dog's poise is one thing, but when I found that my otherwise very sane little man was freaked out by: snowmen (took him 2 weeks of barking at it to finally march up to it and pee on it when it was just a little stump of snow left :-)), people with backpacks and people with umbrellas I soon realised that just because it looks ok to me doesn't mean he will take it calmly. The other week I had him off lead in a 'safe' place and he found two picnickers lying face down sunbathing. I'm fairly sure he was only trying to tell me there might be something wrong, but he was determined to sound the alarm...*SIGH*. Luckily the picnickers took it in good part.

Predatory drift or not it is no excuse for killing another animal. Dogs that do this have usuallly had chance to practise the technique on other dogs. This leads to them prefecting it and applying it time and again.

The DDA does apply on dog to dog a aggression, I'd check out Trevor Cooper on dog law,he does some very good seminars and will clear up your confusion, I have hired Trevor and run a seminar on dog law previously. If the local council decided to use a dog control order that's up to them, each case is individual. I tend to look at it from the point of view as to how I would feel if another dog/s killed one of mine.I wouldn't be satsified until the dog was PTS. There have been lots of cats killed locally by staffies with lads on bikes, who refuse to control the dog. They don't deserve the dog and the dogs don't deserve to think it is ok to go through life killing cats.Chances of rehabituating theses hardened cases are slim.

So can I trust a future owner to walk dog muzzled for rest of it's life?  Local police officer who has 2 dogs who are attacking and trying to kill other dogs is once again I see tonight having his dogs off lead where I walk on open meadow land. So if we can't trust a police officer to follow through what about the general public?

As a dog trainer I must take into account whether the owner will really do what's needed or like most do it for 6months tops and fall back,as the owner of the mastiff who attacked my pup did.He knew his dog had issues but let it approach and attack my pup who now has issues with that type of dog. As he can't control it either on or off lead, it is too powerful for him, if it attacks again he will be losing it. Why? Cause we simply can't have aggressive dogs out there who are out of control that simple. The killing of any animal is not to be tolerated whether that be a cat, squirrel or a sheep if it is not required.

Your dog - bless him - peeing on the stumpy remnants of a snowman :-D Very good of him to warn you about the sunbathers too :)

> just because it looks ok to me doesn't mean he will take it calmly

Very good point - there is no telling what may freak a dog out or elicit a drive they don't usually display. 

He was very brave to show the snowman what he thought of him--he got big praise for it too :-)

I've rethought the picnickers on the light of an earlier episode. I should have said that three years ago my dog came across a man face down in the grass by the river and sounded the alarm--I'd never have seen him where I was walking and even close up because  the grass was high this man was well hidden, especially as it was going dark. He wasn't moving or responsive in any way, so I rang the police and emergency services, and then ran back to the road to wait for them. It turned out in the end that he was a drunk, but even so he could so easily have gone into the river. Diesel got big praise for that too, so presumably he thinks he is doing his job looking after everyone.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><br />Would you suggest that if these dogs had killed a cat, a rabbit, a hare, a squirrel that they also need to be PTS?

A recent court case in Dundee has led to a death sentence hanging over a staffy as it attacked a cat and the cat was quite badly injured but has survived.  The cats owners were in the paper saying the expected compensation, not for the dog to be sentenced to death by the judge.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/News/Dundee/article/16311/charity-joins-efforts-to-save-condemned-dundee-dog-c-jay.html

The world has gone mad!  I feel for the cat owners but if I (as a car driver) had run over the cat there is no obligation for me to stop, report it or even assist the cat afterwards but the dog responds to its internal prey drive and gets sentenced to death.  Bizarre is not the word for it.

Predatory drift or not it is no excuse for killing another animal. Dogs that do this have usuallly had chance to practise the technique on other dogs. This leads to them prefecting it and applying it time and again.

Nobody has said there is any excuse for killing another animal (although of course nobody would be asking for this dog to be put down if it had killed a cat, rabbit, hare, pheasant would they? ;

The DDA does apply on dog to dog a aggression, I'd check out Trevor Cooper on dog law,he does some very good seminars and will clear up your confusion, I have hired Trevor and run a seminar on dog law previously.

I am not confused, at all, and congratulations on hiring Trevor, His Doglaw for Professionals are to be recommended; the DDA does not cover dog to dog aggression however The Dogs Act 1871 does.

Here is the link to Trevor's website which contains the information.

http://www.doglaw.co.uk/dangerous.php

If the local council decided to use a dog control order that's up to them, each case is individual. I tend to look at it from the point of view as to how I would feel if another dog/s killed one of mine.I wouldn't be satsified until the dog was PTS. There have been lots of cats killed locally by staffies with lads on bikes, who refuse to control the dog. They don't deserve the dog and the dogs don't deserve to think it is ok to go through life killing cats.Chances of rehabituating theses hardened cases are slim.

You are entitled to your views as are all of us.

So can I trust a future owner to walk dog muzzled for rest of it's life?  Local police officer who has 2 dogs who are attacking and trying to kill other dogs is once again I see tonight having his dogs off lead where I walk on open meadow land. So if we can't trust a police officer to follow through what about the general public?

Has he been reported?

As a dog trainer I must take into account whether the owner will really do what's needed or like most do it for 6months tops and fall back,as the owner of the mastiff who attacked my pup did.He knew his dog had issues but let it approach and attack my pup who now has issues with that type of dog. As he can't control it either on or off lead, it is too powerful for him, if it attacks again he will be losing it. Why? Cause we simply can't have aggressive dogs out there who are out of control that simple. The killing of any animal is not to be tolerated whether that be a cat, squirrel or a sheep if it is not required

So you would demand that a dog that killed a squirrel, rabbit etc be PTS?

But there has been legal precedent for dogs that kill cats, as judges have said dogs were doing what dogs do.

If a cat came into my garden and my dogs killed it, I would not be expecting to be prosecuted, neither would I be expecting my dogs to be PTS, it stark staring bonkers!

The injuries this woman received were self-inflicted as she placed her hands into the dogs mouth... Utter madness..

I'm curious as to what you think I should have done? No snarkiness or sarcasm intended. The bullmastiff had killed my Dog and then toppled my buggy. My baby was screaming (high pitched) and was only 4 months old.. I was afraid that the dog thought the baby was its next target. It was wearing no collar and no lead and was impossible to restrain. I'm genuinely curious as to how you would have dealt with the situation?

Picked it up by its hind legs

> Picked it up by its hind legs

I very much doubt that would do any good, and am pretty sure it would cause damage to the dog that was being attacked. If the attacking dog had a grip of the other dog, moving it around will cause more tearing/ripping and making damage worse.
The same goes for hitting an attacking dog, unless you can hit with so much force you will frighten or disable the attacking dog, all hitting is going to do is intensify the attack or have it directed at you.

I think shoving something in the dogs mouth was a very good idea, a shoe or handbag (for example) would be ideal, but who knows how we would actually react in that situation. Calmness and a rational mind are not something many of us would have if we had just seen our beloved dog killed and feared for our childrens safety :(

To be honest,if my local park insisted dogs must be on leads,i wouldnt go there-maybe thats what the councils want?I do put them on leads when its needed,but i take my dogs out for a good run,if i have to keep them on lead,i may as well walk them round the streets
Luckily they have a good recall.I tell you what,I get fed up of No Dogs signs,makes one feel like a second class citizen!
Very interesting info tohme thanks. and my condolences to the people who lost their dog.

> Picked it up by its hind legs

I have to say I think picking an attacking bullmastiff up by the hind legs would be next to impossible. I am not sure how much the avarage bull mastiff weighs 50kg? but I know from trying to separate two 20kg bitches fighting how difficult it is to get a secure hold on any part of them. they won't just  stay still and let you get a hold.
A fighting dog is incredibly strong and I would doubt that a large man could pick a bull mastiff up by the hind legs and drag it.
I had two bitches that started fighting and the worst fight they had took me and my 18 year old son who is 6ft tall, all our strength and probably 10 minutes to get them apart and separated.
While you are trying to get a good grip on the back end of the attacking dog the front end could have killed the baby. I don't know what the answer is and I really hope I never have to find out.

I have had to separate a few fights and the hind leg thing has never worked.  The first fight was sheer luck - it wasn't serious, a bit of fence aggression between friends and I managed to get them apart with a pole.  The subsequent couple involved a fear aggressive dog who panicked and grabbed on to protect herself - she had to be choked off, lead round the neck and pull tight.  Not at all pleasant but it does work - a dog can't fight if it can't breathe.

With a mastiff???? No chance! I think I would probably have tried to curl into a ball around the baby, but of course that still leaves the older child unprotected. Not sure what else you could have done, apart from trying to kick the dog, which could in this case easily have made him attack you anyway. :-(

>Picked it up by its hind legs

The police are refusing to do anything as he's a local police officer and his dog and just had hold of mine by the ear this morning.

Luckily no damage but off lead and unmuzzled.

There is no place in the world for aggressive dogs with irresponsible owners. Ever seen the damage done to another dog when attacked? Ever had to hold it's guts in place? Ever had to tell an owner that their dog has died on the table from it's injuries? Maybe I'm speaking from the other end ofthe business,the end that actually deals with the destruction caused. People who own aggressive dogs that act responsibly are entitled to have their dog and keep us all safe, but this world is too full of people who don't. That simple. Tow the line, that's fine, do the crime expect the time.

If it was a man who had attacked and killed the dogs how would you feel? What would you expect? Prison sentence?

AS I have said in previous posts, differing opinions are how we learn, adapt,change points of view at times, but we are entitled to our different opinions and I don't feel swayed when dogs are attacking and people do not muzzle that leaves one option. Interesting how some see a squirrel of less consequence than a cat and a cat less than a dog.

>Interesting how some see a squirrel of less consequence than a cat

Well yes; a squirrel (unless it's a red one) is vermin, like a rat.

> With a mastiff

The dog has been reported as a BULLmastiff - a smaller, different breed than a Mastiff.