anyone know the policy for a puppy that is returned and how much should should be refunded?

Depends entirely on why the puppy is being returned as to whether you have any consumer rights but generally, responsible breeders will have the terms stipulated in their contracts but that may vary considerable breeder to breeder.

they returned the pup after weeks of nagging and late night exited phone calls asking how she was which i dont normally mind as its a big step getting a puppy. the reason for the return after only 4 days was they couldnt cope with the amount of time a puppy demands (i personaly dont think they gave it a chance which i did tell them in a very nice way, i dont like upsetting people) before they bought the puppy i did make sure they understood the implications of owning a puppy and that they had done research on the breed so it was the right dog for them ..they assured me this had been done .... un fortunatly i have been nieve as i didnt give them a contract stupid i know but is to my detrement. the breed itself is an expensive breed so it took me a few weeks to sell the puppy to the right home again after numerous txt msgs from the original owner wondering if they had done the right thing in bringing her back and wondered if they could sort out a dog sitter for her when they couldnt spend time with her , any way they decided to let me rehome her , i had to reduce the price to sell her ..

A lot will depend on pups age and often the breed.

For example a pup over 6 months of age generally in my breed is simply a re-home rescue and has no real re-sale value, a breeder would be happy for someone to offer a good home, as in a rescue, with perhaps a donation to breed rescue.

Often older pups like this need a lot of work re training etc, as not coping with a pup is usally the reason for return..

As he puppy was returned to you for the reasons you say and presuming it was returned in the same health status as purchased then I do not think you have any obligation to the purchaser for reimbursement under consumer law other than what you personally feel right and proper. If you sold it in good faith and the puppy was not faulty and not returned due to being faulty, then you have taken it back as a good will gesture and what you decide to pay back I would imagine is your own choice.  Did the purchaser expect or ask for a full refund when they returned the puppy to you?      

(pat)   the puppy was healthy when i sold her and when she came back to me , i deducted the price the new owner paid from the price they paid then knocked of the deposit and some for my time and inconvenience this gave them a little over half of what they paid . In the initial phone call they made to me telling me they wanted to return the puppy they said they wernt that bothered about money just what was best for the puppy , NOW they are saying they expected a lot more .

> the puppy was healthy when i sold her and when she came back to me , i deducted the price the new owner paid from the price they paid then knocked of the deposit and some for my time and inconvenience this gave them a little over half of what they paid . In the initial phone call they made to me telling me they wanted to return the puppy they said they wernt that bothered about money just what was best for the puppy , NOW they are saying they expected a lot more .

It sounds like you have been very fair. If there was nothing wrong with the puppy then you are not obligated to return any money at all. It sounds like you gave them plenty of chances to reconsider their decision before rehoming the puppy so I would say they are lucky they got anything.

the reason for the return after only 4 days

4 days? I think any decent breeder would pay back the full purchase price then, although perhaps not until the pup has been resold. But after such a short time period I really think it's the only option. When I get paid for a pup I don't even touch the money until I know everything is well and there is no likelihood of it coming back quickly as if it did come back that soon I'd pay the full price back.

> i deducted the price the new owner paid from the price they paid then knocked of the deposit and some for my time and inconvenience this gave them a little over half of what they paid .

In my contract I have it that, at whatever age a puppy comes back, I would give them any money I received less reasonable expenses, ie any advertising and a small amount for weekly keep. 
Of course, if older it may not be sold on at all in which case they would get nothing but if another home is found and I receive a further purchase price I don't consider it appropriate to make any profit.  I do not take deposits.

Let's turn this around. Poster comes on and says they've made a mistake, they bought a puppy but realised they couldn't cope, so returned it after 4 days. Should they have had their money back? I think most people would say yes, as it was such a very short time.

I'm not a breeder and have never returned a puppy so doesn't really apply to me but....

Do many breeders offer a full refund regardless of the age of the dog, to help ensure that they get the dog back rather than it being sold on? (I know contracts state return to breeder etc but not a lot you can do if someone sells a dog on is there?)

I think I'd rather make a loss and ensure I got the dog back.

> Let's turn this around. Poster comes on and says they've made a mistake, they bought a puppy but realised they couldn't cope

I thought at first that was the OPs story :). 

Yes, I think you are right after such a very short time but I do think it reasonable to deduct any advertising necessary if those on the waiting list have gone elsewhere for instance.  Other than that I would have the feeling I was at least in part responsible for the homing failure by perhaps not being scrupulous enough in selection.

> Do many breeders offer a full refund regardless of the age of the dog, to help ensure that they get the dog back rather than it being sold on?

That is definately my reasoning. 

can i just point out somehing that i did not mention earlier which perhaps i should have done, i agreed to keep the pup longer than all the others in the litter to acomadate a wedding that they were attending so had already paid out for its upkeep for them which i dont mind as i thought they were genuine buyers, my point is i feel as if i and the puppy have been used somewhat . i have not made a profit from the resale only that of a small amount for my inconvenience and upkeep of the pup.  i have never come across this problem before as i thought (perhaps wrongly)i vetted people correctly and found the right home for my pups hence the reason for the question .. i do want to be fair without being a push over for people experimenting to see if they can cope with a pup.

> i have not made a profit from the resale only that of a small amount for my inconvenience and upkeep of the pup. 

You said it was an expensive breed, say £800, perhaps a resale of £400 and you say you gave them half.  That does seem quite a lot for out of pocket expenses :)
In my contract I state £10 a week for keep.
I would not worry about setting a precedent of being a push over as you are not likely to sell another puppy to them and no one else will know.  I would just make sure you have a contract next time so no one has any doubts about what is expected.

hey stooge thanx so much for your advice , no im talking £ 1300 for the original sale  , i then sold her for £1000 to the second owner i deducted the £300 deficiate and the deposite which i know you dont take ..and a little for keep and extra injections and it gave them over half of what they originally paid for her .. i did point this out to them when they decided to return  her , i feel they bought her on a whim and also returned her on a whim, this all happened 4 weeks ago , they cashed my check and have only just got back to me with there disatisfaction .... again i really do want to be fair !!
btw, i gave them over half

> .... again i really do want to be fair !!

Just deduct your expenses then and give them the rest.  I am not sure how you justify keeping the rest.
At least they admitted defeat very quickly.  Would you really want someone, in the future, soldiering on with a puppy they could not really cope with for the sake of losing out hundreds of pounds?

4 days ! all puppys  are hard work especially ones you are not used to .. as i said earlier they didnt give themselves or the puppy chance to get used to each other .. forgive me if im wrong but it takes longer than 4 days.

That is not the way I would look at it. 
You asked if others thought you had been fair and I have answered and explained my reasons which to recap are
a) I would not want to make a profit out of this unhappy event and
b) I would never want to encourage a buyer to look elsewhere for a solution.

You appear to want to apply some penalty to them but I would suspect after waiting weeks for a puppy and paying over a thousand pounds they are as sad as you are that it didn't work out.

no honestly i dont want any kind ov penelty , thats not at all what im about i think u got me wrong ...
christine .. why the thanks ??

Christine is spam :)
All I can say is having collected £2300 for this puppy less a refund of just over £650 the litter must have been hugely expensive to rear or perhaps a massive stud fee!

I dont know how to do links but ive been trying to read the sale of goods act - its confusing, as ive read it, it may come under ' private sales ' but doesnt say anything on a purchaser changing thier minds so perhaps you didnt have to refund anything. As i said i may be wrong but will look into it further for myself!

In your case then it would be fair, as you did sell her to refund them what you got, minus reasonable costs (board and lodging, and any other cost incurred by you).

Agree with others - my aim would have been an eventual refund of whatever payment I received back from the second sale - any out of pocket expenses e.g advertising, with perhaps a small amount for weekly board as you did say it took a few weeks to sell.  This would be easy to account for them so they could see exactly how you had came about the amount and, hopefully, not feel agrieved and that you have been fair.  

I wouldn't want to be out of pocket but I wouldn't be aiming to profit/penalise from the second sale.

>the reason for the return after only 4 days was they couldnt cope with the amount of time a puppy demands

Previous threads on here have agreed that returning a pup within a week would warrant a full refund, if only to stop the owners selling the pup on elsewhere themselves.

Don't forget people by the sounds of it this pup was kept longer than normal and injections done in the first place,  Although the refund amount to me does sound a bit less than I would of done in some ways I can see your point.  In reality though after 4 days I can't see why you would of not been able to sell it for the same price as before?

> Don't forget people by the sounds of it this pup was kept longer than normal and injections done in the first place

Not forgetting but considering the eye watering price this would hardly make a dent.

Although I personally would have refunded more I think that because they accepted your cheque and cashed it 'legally' if they had been dissatisfied they should not have accepted and cashed your cheque. Don't see what they can come back on to you for now.

Yes Stooge, in context I did also state that they amount paid back was less than I would!

Even so, these people by the sounds of it were on the phone all of the time beforehand and does make you wonder what they really expected after 4 days.  I don't think myself that they would deserve the full amount and we don't know how long the breeder kept the pup extra for.  As we don't know the whole story I suppose in some ways none of us can comment :)

> As we don't know the whole story

We don't :) but personally if a new owner was struggling I would want them to be in touch with me frequently and I might be asking myself whether I might have done more to be prevent them being so unprepared rather than regarding all the failing to be theirs.

If the pup had been the usual 8 weeks or so, I would have refunded the entire amount if the pup was returned after only 4 days. However, since the pup was a bit older and therefore probably a little bit less "saleable", I would probably said that I would have given them all the money from the subsequent sale of the pup - perhaps less a little bit for out of pocket expenses - but only if it took a little while.

I can understand the desire to financially penalise these people but I wouldn't do it. I never take deposits either. My main concern is the well being of the pup - not the financial side of it all.

stooge 
i did not make a profit from the sale ov this puppy i kept back what it cost me to keep this puppy you seem to think i sell puppys to just anybody if they want them , i do not .. i DO make sure all the people i sell puppys to are more than fully prepared and offer after care and advice which they chosse not to accept but just return the pup
dont know were you got the figure £2300 as thats way out.
i did more than is expected of any breeder only to have it thrown back in my face.(including giving them advice over the phone while they were concidering buying from somebody else i didnt have to do that !)
i could not sell the pup on for its original price as it was weeks older due to me keeping it longer to acomodate them in th first place so reduced the price to sell the pup before it got even older..
i even kept the puppy a few days after they returned herbefore i readvertised her as they didnt know if they were doing the right thing by returning her

appyang, you have done nothing wrong in my book. You refunded what you got for the puppy from the second buyers, minus reasonable expenses. I don't see why you should be out of pocket. As you say, older pups are not always as saleable as younger ones.

You will always get different opinions on boards like this. Just stick to what you think is right.

> dont know were you got the figure £2300 as thats way out

You sold the puppy first time for £1300, then you resold the puppy for £1000 simple maths adds up to £2300. You have refunded approx £650 to the first puppy owner so that leaves you with a balance of £1650. I think it would be a good gesture if you gave the original puppy owner thier money back.  On the above figures you have already made a huge profit.

No I do disagree with that. If all had gone to plan and the original owner had kept the pup the OP would have had £1300.
Because of the original owner returning then pup she resold her for £1000. If she refunds the original owner £1300 then the OP has only received £1000 for a pup that was originally worth £1300.
I would refund the original  owner the £1000 that the pup was resold for less the costs for keeping the puppy. I don' see why the OP should lose out because of the original owners lack of research.

After reading the thread when you look at it in black and white a pup was sold for £1,300 and returned 4 days later, eventually refunding £650 it does look really harsh, but thinking about it appyang you were treated very badly by these people and more importantly so was the poor pup, it was messed around along with yourself, kept for longer meaning you needed to socialise and fully inoculate, I think most of us have kept on pups for owners and know exactly how much work that entails.

You've then obviously had daily phone calls of them not coping, which would also cause you great stress and worry, eventually with them returning the pup, whether there is a lacking in how you pass on information and help your new owners I guess we won't know but they returned the pup, messing you about once again whilst they thought about having it back or not, (which I wouldn't have allowed personally, back is back) you have then needed to make sure the pup is ok for re-homing after a 4 day experience itself getting used to a new home and now thrown back in the old to eventually be found another new home.......... poor pup!

All inconvenient all unnecessary, so I'm with you, these people need to know they can't go around buying pups and returning them, what's to say if they had a full refund that they wouldn't go ahead and do it to someone else?

You've deducted the deposit, your time, the pups extra keep, the dropped re-sale price difference........ seems fair to me, hopefully they will have learnt a valuable lesson and people like this, only do learn if it hits the pocket.

I don't know what your vetting process was like, I don't know how people like this did get through, but then again, people do lie, sometimes even to themselves. It's always best to lay it on the line the downside of puppyhood and dog ownership whether they wish to listen or not, it's stops things like this happening. :-)

Under the circumstances I think for these people you have done the right thing, I may not agree under other circumstances but these people sound like they think a pup is the latest handbag, you can't have them treating living creatures like that.

If I was happy with the way I had vetted and felt totally let down by them, your price was right. :-)

I agree that the £1000 finally received for the puppy should be returned to the original purchaser less a few reasonable expenses. Otherwise as the breeder you have made much more on the pup than you would have if the original purchase had worked out. That way you have not lost anything and cannot be considered to be any less than fair in your dealings with them. I would want to walk away without too much of a bad taste in my mouth, and put it down to experience this time around.

Yes, the purchaser was silly, but it sounds as though they may be out at work to be re thinking along the lines of a dog sitter. That would be an unthinkable situation for most breeders to place a puppy, and it isn't one which is likely to work well for a purchaser.  At least they didn't just decide to stick the puppy in a crate all day.

You sold the puppy first time for £1300, then you resold the puppy for £1000 simple maths adds up to £2300. You have refunded approx £650 to the first puppy owner so that leaves you with a balance of £1650. I think it would be a good gesture if you gave the original puppy owner thier money back.  On the above figures you have already made a huge profit. Quoted from roscoebabe,it seems I have no idea how to make a quote come up as such lol

Have to say maths is not my strong point,but the above seems right to me?? OP did not refund the first buyers back what they paid so surely that means she/he still had that money,then plus the second buyers purchase fee and only refunded first buyers approx £650-700,is that not right??

Like I said maths is not my thing lol,but seems Roscoebabe has it right in her post??

I agree first buyers didn't give it enough of a chance,but at least they returned the puppy and accepted not receiving any money at that point,not sure everyone would have done considering the amount of money at stake TBH.

As a buyer I would have expected to be refunded the whole amount after such a short time.Have not ever sold a puppy or bred animals but have sold a few horses over the years,and have always sat on the money for a couple of weeks to make sure all was well.I wouldn't have wanted any animal I had cared about and been responsible for to have ended up somewhere I had no control over would rather have had them back and lost money.

Sorry digressing a little there but is only thing I can compare it to.

In this case though the puppy had already been kept past the normal homing age for the new owners convenience (which would have incurred added expenses) and on return was no longer as sellable and re-sold for a lesser sum.

So the returning owners would be entitled to what the pup was re-sold for less the breeders additional expenses for advertising and a reasonable amount for keeping the puppy until a suitable home was found (this can take time).

As I understand it this is what happened.

The breeder has only made the original slae price, as the rest of teh resale was teh amount refunded and expenses incurred.

The fact this seems to be a high priced breed is neither here nor there.

> So the returning owners would be entitled to what the pup was re-sold for less the breeders additional expenses for advertising and a reasonable amount for keeping the puppy until a suitable home was found (this can take time).
>

I would agree with that but the puppy was resold for £1000 and yet only about £650 was given back to the first purchasers. 
The OP appears to be stating rather more than just expenses was held back and that is what I find a little hard to justify given the probable profit already made on the first purchase.

Going back to the original question posed, it would appear from the majority of responders that they have contracts stipulating that if a puppy is taken back and resold only reasonable expenses are deducted. 
The OP is entitled to reject that way of doing things but I think they have to accept they are in the minority if they do.

I'd agree but we don't know what the expenses were, how long it took to re-home pup etc, resul;ting in a lower refund.

> I'd agree but we don't know what the expenses were, how long it took to re-home pup etc, resul;ting in a lower refund.

They would have to go some to spend £350 :) but the OP has already indicated more than expenses were kept back and appeared a little cross when it was suggested that perhaps that was all that should be deducted.   Not sure why they asked really :)

They would have to go some to spend £350

Not that difficult I would have thought, having the pup for an extra 4 weeks, feeding, time spent training, vet fees and vaccination all add up very quickly and then of course there are the phone calls, home visits and possible adverts to find the right home for the pup.

The OP has indicated more than expenses were kept back.
Admitedly about 8 years since I had a pup back but I took £10 a week for out of pocket expenses.

Surely theres a lesson to be learnt here,write a contract to cover all eventualities, inc,return of a puppy,in the first week,2cnd week and so on,and make sure you stipulate how much refund they will get if puppys returned without health problems,with health problems its more difficult ,was it the breeding or due to the new owners all this should be thought out and put in a contract.Surely its better to protect yourself ,the buyer and MOSTLY the puppy.

I once bought a dog where the contract stated full refund if pup returned before 14 weeks.

They would have to go some to spend £350

I think the discrepancy is that the breeder has kept the deposit as well as expenses (and assuming that it was a fairly hefty deposit) then this would add up.
Personally, I wouldn't keep the deposit, otherwise I think it is reasonable.  I would rather get a pup back than risk a new puppy owner selling the pup on because they don't want to make a loss.

A deposit is just money up front on the purchase value but I agree the very real issue is whether our actions improve the chances of our puppies always come back to us as the preferred option.

Obviously everyone has their own opinions on this subject but a couple of other points come into my mind - a deposit is usually a non-refundable amount to 'reserve' a puppy.  I think most people that changed their minds would expect to lose their deposit.

Also, if one did refund the money 100% - what's to stop these people going off and doing the same thing again to another poor breeder - I feel the breeder should certainly have something for the stress and possible inconvenience this has caused.

Although the pup appears to be in the same good health as when it left, there is always a risk that it could have injured itself slightly with no obvious signs, yet again a risk to the breeder selling her on again.

I do think getting the pup back is the main priority here and in this case she has found another home reasonably quickly so all has ended well.

> a deposit is usually a non-refundable amount to 'reserve' a puppy.

It's whatever the contract says it is but, yes, it will generally be non-refundable.  However, it would generally be considered non refundable on not completing the contract ie not paying the rest and collecting the puppy. 
I would hazard a guess that on a straw poll of posters here you will find few that take a deposit for the same reason that the majority have said they would return all but expenses from the second purchase price ie to ensure that they are the first port of call in the event of any problem keeping the puppy and perhaps because it is fairer.
I think the OP has been fortunate that the buyers did not attempt to sort out recompense before returning the pup as, particularly consider the large amount paid, they could very easily have looked to recoup elsewhere.

>yet again a risk to the breeder selling her on again.

No risk at all if, as usually happens, the breeder is only going to pass on money if and when the puppy is placed in another home.