Did anyone else read the article in Dog World about the judge that was penalised and censored by the KC  because they placed a shy puppy ? -are the Kc completely hell bent on killing off dog showing ? - this was a MINOR puppy who the judge placed last in her class - not an adult dog being awarded the CC !! - plenty of breeds my own ( BSD ) included, go though a shy stage when young and some older dogs may be spooked by a judge or other event - how else can we get their confidence back if not in the ring under sympathetic judges who understand that they are dogs not machines !! - not all breeds are the same - the KC's mantra of 'fit for function' seemingly does not apply to temperament in breeds that were bred to be wary of strangers as part of their original function - we once had a Groenendael that was very shy as a puppy but by the age of 3 years he stood like a rock , loved his showing and we made him up - frankly if we'd had the humilation of being sent out of the ring whilst he was going through his shy stage we would have given up and taken up some other hobby !!!

Yvonne

Glad you brought it up -as you can imagine I like you was horrified and wondered if in our breed we'd have most judges disciplined in future! I think the judge made it very clear with a 3rd out of 3! I don't like it when dogs that can't be touched get awarded tickets (have seen male dogs not being able to be examined for testicles for instance) but for goodness sake, a puppy is a puppy and there has to be other breeds that go through the same stages.

Totally agree , there are plenty of breeds like mine Tibetan Mastiffs that state in the Breed standard , " Maybe wary of strangers " and  " Aloof " the judge is a stranger as far as the dog in concerned , so only doing what the breed should be doing, even as adults they can be wary, but not just this breed , lots of breeds.
What is the KC looking for?

Peanuts

I read it in yesterdays DW.I am sure most of us have had young pups in the show ring that have sat when a judge has gone over them,presumabaly this is potentially classed as a puppy being alittle nervous and worried.Most likely because of inexperience.Wasn't it a whippet?

Hi, it was an Italian Greyhound. Agree it was harsh to penalise the judge, but having read more about it, seems that the puppy was dragged round the ring as well as not being able to be handled. Personally think that the judge should have just asked her to leave the ring. A similar thing happened to me when showing my Tibbie puppy, although she was happy on the table and in the ring, she refused to move a step, typical tibbie stubborness, however after a few coaxings to no avail. I asked to be excused from the ring.
Am pleased to say we have had no more "silly" episodes, though with tibbies you never know when they will choose to show you up again.

If it was THAT nervous that it wouldn't even go around the ring then maybe agree with the KC.

I have a stunning girl here who is happy to go up to people when SHE decides but isn't happy about geing gone over at the backend.  She does move beautifully though and stands with her little rudder wagging like mad when the judge goes past.

My breed is yet another breed who is known to be wary of strangers and goes through a couple of fear periods that is well known in the breed.

There is more to this story than meets the eye Yvonne - I will link the original story regarding the italian greyhound

[url=]http://www.dogworld.co.uk/News/40-Exhibitors/url]

this was more than a little shy !

rachelsetters, the link doesn't work, can you try again please?

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/News/40-Exhibitors

retried - sorry!

retried - sorry!
Sorry thought it said retired,and i am wearing my glasses.
However reviewing the link,it saddens and sickens me to read the way it was treated.From what I have seen of Italian Grey hounds,they are only slight and appear fragile when an adult.A small 8 month old must have been absolutely petrified.I hope it has no lasting psychological damage.
Very indepth write up from the K.C though.

I do agree that leeway may be given on puppies and young dogs, as we all know a heavy handed judge can put a young dog off being gone over in the ring for quite some time.  But I am fed up with seeing 4 & 5 yr olds upwards still not letting the judge go over them, and then the same judge gives them tickets!  For one thing how the hell does the judge know the dog has acceptable dentition (because they never even asked the handler to show the mouth), or that in a male it has all the required bits?  Generally a foreign judges would dismiss them as a DQ immediately but not UK judges it seems.

Why did the judge allow this to go on? To ask her to do an extra down and back and then reward such behaviour with a rosette means the judge needs to go back to judging school.

I am surprised that no one appears to have picked this up on their camera phones.

All my crates collapse with the plastic tray inside, she could have put a newspaper over the base of the crate as some way of stopping the paws going through or not use the crate at all.

Generally a foreign judges would dismiss them as a DQ immediately but not UK judges it seems.

My experience is the opposite. Many foreign judges don't touch the dogs. At the world show for instance our judge asked every exhibitor if it was okay for her to look at the teeth. All but a couple said no, showed the teeth themselves with the dog sitting, in some cases forcefully held between the handler's knees (some even failed to show the teeth despite that!) and in ALL those instances, the judge didn't go over the dogs at all -and some of these were veterans and Champions. She only went over those were the handler said she could look at the teeth herself. Even then all it was was a quick stroke across the back. I've found the same at breed shows with foreign judges -they often don't touch the dogs at all.

I agree  Marianne - our experience of watching the judging of our breed in Europe  is that the dogs are rarely handled at all and much emphasis is placed on  the specific breed characteristic of alertness   - the dogs are shown at the end of the lead facing out and a watchful highly responsive expression is highly prized - this is part of the breeds original function after all  - now I agree that adults should be confident enough to let complete strangers handle their 'bits' but a minor  puppy ?

If the KC had penalised the judge for not disqulaifying it because it was being harshly handled I would have agreed but this is what they said ......

He placed ........... third of three in minor puppy bitch when, the KC's General Committee, said, she was displaying clear signs of excessive timidity.
"The KC states that judges should never award prizes to dogs in such circumstances,"

To me that reads as if judges should withold from all dogs displaying ring shyness !! - .... does  the KC now expect  that specific breed temperament should be changed to a 'one size fits all ' and all breeds shuld behave like Cavaliers or Goldies ? ...if so how does that fit in with their 'fit for function' stance ?

Yvonne

Think we may be missing the point, this dog should not have received an award because it was timid with it's owner not just the judge and such a temperament is not in line with that breeds standard, aloof is one thing but to be so scared as to not be able to move is harmful to the dog concerned and the dog should have been removed from the ring, it should not have even been there.

We are in a situation of picking at the words instead of considering the overall situation and from the reports is seems the owners handling of the pup was verging on the cruel and the judge was showing lack of knowledge, probably considering the behaviour as 'normal for the breed' which is one of the problems with all rounders and fast trackers who accept appointments before they have had enough time to study the breed concerned.

Did my hands on assessment on a IG, bit of a shock as I judge dogs who are stood on the floor. This dog and all others I have come across have been very people friendly but any pup can become overwhelmed and this one obviously was so should have been removed and the only people there that could have achieved this was the handler and the judge and they both failed to protect this dog from it's fear, not apprehension or not wishing to be handled but fear.

Sorry thought it said retired

Ha ha me too.. then again i've only had 4hrs sleep

To me that reads as if judges should withold from all dogs displaying ring shyness !! - .... does  the KC now expect  that specific breed temperament should be changed to a 'one size fits all ' and all breeds shuld behave like Cavaliers or Goldies ? ...if so how does that fit in with their 'fit for function' stance ?

Whatever the case with the Italian Greyhound, it IS now happening that judges withhold on puppies for backing off and being unsure. It happened today in our breed -two PUPPIES under a wellknown allrounder. (An allrounder I myself will not show under as I have observed them being too rough for my liking in the past!) They could have placed these pups last as there were other entries but the judge chose to withhold. In this case I am 100 % certain there is no way there was any rough or incorrect handling involved from the handler.

(An allrounder I myself will not show under as I have observed them being too rough for my liking in the past!)

I've been under her and really didn't like her manner with the dogs at all, I personally didn't get a good vibe from her either and wouldn't ever put another dog under her again!!!

yep I watched this too - youngsters that I personally have gone over with no problems at all were totally spooked by this judge who appeared to be frightened of the breed - now my point is that if the KC are going to enforce the 'no ring shyness' rule then exhibitors will vote with their feet and refuse to enter under any judge that is not considerate and experienced in handling their breed - making entry numbers even lower than they already are ( particularly under all rounders ) - is this what the KC want ?

Yvonne