> They said that they are bypassing magistrates and going straight to Crown to ensure swift and tough sentences. It means anything upto ten years for being involved in riots

Good oh! :)  I'm even prepared to pay more tax to ensure more places for 'em, although I would prefer richer folk were taxed for it.  Not likely with Tory government though is it.

It is one teacher in thousands so I would say that our children are in the main safe in their hands :-)

We must try as a community to address social problems and stop making certain concessions to religion and race but just be BRITISH

How about settling for just being human--all the relatively arbitrary nationalities, flags and even faiths are no replacement for the ethics and morals that civilizations have shared for thousands of years. It isn't that common ground doesn't exist. We should do more to value it.

I would say that the higher tax earners pay enough tax in the main ( I think a super top earners tax needs to be considered and increased ).I doubt many of the offenders are in anyway near this higher tax earners bracket so we all jointly are responsible to foot the bill for all of this not just the higher earners :-)

This mess is the making of all areas of society.

would say that the higher tax earners pay enough tax in the main ( I think a super top earners tax needs to be considered and increased ).I doubt many of the offenders are in anyway near this higher tax earners bracket so we all jointly are responsible to foot the bill for all of this not just the higher earners :-)


Well my dad who is a commercial lawyer works very very hard many hours a day, studied for years pays the highest tax rate and i feel it must be sole destroying to still only be able to afford a modest terraced house and still have to watch his money, i would hate for him to have to be taxed more (he is the only person in my family to be a high earner) so please dont think its because i wouldnt want to be taxed lol i just dont see how its fair.1

Interesting to see what the Global view is on all of this :-)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-14471921

> I doubt many of the offenders are in anyway near this higher tax earners bracket so we all jointly are responsible to foot the bill for all of this not just the higher earners :-)

Indeed :)  It's just a case of when resources are tight no point in driving those down the lower end into the "needy" group and consequently requiring assistance themselves. 
Better to take from those that can spare it and still have a good sufficiency to function well without support from society.

> i feel it must be sole destroying to still only be able to afford a modest terraced house and still have to watch his money

Well I was thinking higher up the rich list than £42k but soul destroying?  What can be wrong in owning a modest terraced house and surely you would need to be beyond a wage earner to never have to consider your budget?

he earns over 100k lol then you work out whats left after taxl

The problem is the people in the higher tax earnings again have worked hard to get where they are (Uni or have put in the hours) to get where they are and why should they have to solely foot the bill when the wasters who haven't lifted a finger who expect it all are percieved to be the main instigators of this.

Perhaps if the onus was on us all it may make people take joint responsibilty and do more in their communities rather than be bystanders and blame everybody else apart from themselves for this. We should all take the pain for this and hopefully it may make people sit up and do something about society

The problem is the people in the higher tax earnings again have worked hard to get where they are (Uni or have put in the hours) to get where they are and why should they have to solely foot the bill when the wasters who haven't lifted a finger who expect it all are percieved to be the main instigators of this.


Thats exactly it, why should my dad and anyone else pay more than anyone else just because they have worked so hard, yes with the super super wealthy who probably never have to ever think about cash but its always the ordinary joe blogs that happen to earn abit more get strangled for every last drop and they must wonder what the hell is the point.

> when the wasters who haven't lifted a finger who expect it all are percieved to be the main instigators of this.

Well, the ones that have been found guilty can certainly be made to suffer financially but I would not like to see anyone on benefits who has had nothing to do with this suffer any more than they are due to the current financial difficulties.

Collective responsibilty is the only way this will move forward.

> he earns over 100k lol then you work out whats left after taxl

Over £60K.

Well, the ones that have been found guilty can certainly be made to suffer financially but I would not like to see anyone on benefits who has had nothing to do with this suffer any more than they are due to the current financial difficulties.

There are people on benefits that may not have done the looting but I am afraid alot are part of the take and not give culture. Benefits have been cut because there are too many people getting a free ride. Yes there are genuine people who do need benefits to survive but just because higher eaners earn more is doesn't mean they have any more disposable income.

Alot of people are just about getting by and take more money away it would mean loosing jobs and houses and more people that could go onto benefits as they would default on motrgages and not be able to afford childcare etc. It is a catch 22 situation.

> Collective responsibilty is the only way this will move forward.

I'm sure we all feel our contribution to society makes us collectively responsible and we are all paying taxes but due to the economic situation I feel there is a short term need for more resources that, if imposed too low down the scale where the economy is hurting already, you are going to just create more problems than the increased resources would help.
There, that was a long sentence :)

exactly so nearly half his money is gone straight away, i dontthink thats hardly fair ecspecially as hes the only bread winner in their household, but again that is typical of this country, i think ive made it clear how i feel about this so i shall leave it there.

Oh and just to add, guess how much he got contribution based jobseekers last year when he was between jobs,,,, a extra £8.50.

> Alot of people are just about getting by and take more money away it would mean loosing jobs and houses and more people that could go onto benefits as they would default on motrgages and not be able to afford childcare etc.

Then they are not likely to be in the income group I would suggest we look at but to be honest, if anyone is earning into six figures say, they may need to reconsider their material desires if they find they cannot manage on that and could not possible "cut their cloth.
I guess this looks like we are going off topic but really the desire for so very, very much is, I feel, at the root of the discontent and averice that appears to have gone to the heads of these riots although, of course, I am not saying it causes this behaviour in everyone that aspires to material things.

> exactly so nearly half his money is gone straight away, i dontthink thats hardly fair ecspecially as hes the only bread winner in their household, but again that is typical of this country

Who would you like to pay it then?  Surely not those less well off.  You dad has seen how much they have to manage on, especially those that don't qualify for the extra £8.50!
If it is any consolation my household is in the upper tax bracket too but I have never really thought ourselves anything other than fortunate, certainly not soul destroyed :) but as I said I was really thinking of those further up the rich list. (Well, I would, wouldn't I :))
The old arguement was that they would go abroad but where would they go these days?

I disagree slightly on this as there is nothing wrong in wanting and material things , it is whether you are prepared to work for it rather than expect it to be given to you is where the problem sits.

The message should be work hard, get an education and enjoy the benefits of being able to earn to be able to pay for things that are classed as non essentials.

Get people off their backsides and take pride in their acheivements. Stop making excuses for not having what other people have. Anybody with determination and the right attitude can achieve alot.People who dont bother and think they have earnt the right are the problem.

Anyway I will get off my soap box now and go and do poo patrol ! LOL :-)

I disagree i think its wrong to be greedy off anyone and think just because theyve worked harder they should pay suchj a huge amount more, and yes when your struggling to make it all stretch because you pay so much tax it bloody well is soul destroying ecspecially when you have the weight of a important aspect of a frim weighing solely on your shoulders and what for to take home ameasley amount more than the if youd just stuck to beingt their office staff.
Secondly as he was still having to pay the morgate on that benefit as you hasve to be out of work for 3 months to qualify for housing benefit help i think it was disgracefull(they came close to losing everything as the mortgate people were tryingf hard to get them to default) but clearly we are not going to agree so i think we are flogging a dead horse.,
It is clear in this country do everything you can to do sweet fa you get everything thrown at you but heavens forbid you should try to better yourself the vultures are soon circling.
Also yes the people who are on the very rich scale do leave the country, thats exactly what my FIL did when he sold the haulkage company.

> The message should be work hard, get an education and enjoy the benefits of being able to earn to be able to pay for things that are classed as non essentials

I would agree with that and I suspect for the vast majority of those rioting this is what they are lacking but in terms of the country's morale we currently have a situation where you can work and study hard for decent qualifications and yet your career and earning prospects can remain rather grim.
I think our society would find a greater contentment in the immediately years ahead if we all learned to aspire to different achievements rather than the material ones that we seem to have focused on for the last 30/40 years.

I'm in agreement with everything you say Boody and LJS.

It's about time this countries problems were put at the feet of those causing it, people in this country who work hard for years, for that good life, who pay a huge amount of tax have to watch those who sit on their bums looked after by the country to all workers who pay tax it is soul destroying and always there is the call to tax those earning healthy wages even more and more and more to support this countries cock ups.

Why should those of us with a healthy wage pay for the riots? It is nothing to do with any of us who earn a living, what did we do?

The country should make the criminals pay for their crimes by working for free for as many years as it takes until it is paid off and deducting it from their benefits, why should any of us innocent people be made to pay for others wrong doings?

must identify the underlying causes and rehabilitate or we go round in the same circle again.

The only way to stop this happening again is to come down hard.."with the fear of god"  on their heads.....  identifying and rehabilitation is to "soft" an  approach  for whats happening in our society  today.

FEAR........pure and simply will do the trick, a little fear never hurt anyone..ask all  of us who lived in a era where we  knew the outcome of any wrong doings...   we would be terrified of taking the police or trouble to our doorstep,  what was dished out by the police would be doubled up by our parents.

If we got into trouble at school, there was not point going home to complain to your parents, with the "its was not my fault"  excuse. because quiet simply the fear of  what your parents would do , was worse then the  punishment you got at school, would much rather take the cane from a teacher then have my dad find out... not that he ever used any form of physically abuse, but  "the look" and his "displeasure"  directed to you was enough.

We need a tough justice set up in this country to deal with these jobs..forget  the slap on the wrist and an easy jail term  ..   put them to work doing hard graft,  up at dawn and down at sunset,  call it borstal, national service or anything you want.

That is the only way you will educate these individuals to  consequences to actions.

>It is nothing to do with any of us who earn a living, what did we do?
>

As I understand it there were employed people arrested and neither were all the unwaged getting stuck in.  No one group are responsible and there is little chance of getting what is needed in terms of resources out of those individuals that are.  So it is more a question of who can afford to help. 

FEAR........pure and simply will do the trick, a little fear never hurt anyone..ask all  of us who lived in a era where we  knew the outcome of any wrong doings...   we would be terrified of taking the police or trouble to our doorstep,  what was dished out by the police would be doubled up by our parents

Yep the Fear of my mom waiting at the front door to give me a clip round the head always kept me on the staight and narrow lol

and guess what she can still do it to me now if I think she doesnt approve of something I ve done. fear not the clip round the ear and she is 5ft 2" and 85 :)

Yes ljs I am just annoyed that someone in the profession who should be modelling good behaviour could do this.

> Some years ago there was an article in the press pointing out that it cost more to feed the prison dog than the prisoner

the prison dog is though useful

Well Stooge you may be happy to pay for what other people have done, but I'm not. If this country were to be devastated by a natural disaster I would have no problem in 'helping out' more, if in an act of war we were left devastated, again of course the more wealthy can help out,  it's understandable and I don't think many would object, even though there is never a choice the government just decide to do it.

But, if your asking me to pay for criminals who damage their own country, totally out of order, they need to pay for the damage, working or on the dole it is their responsibility, once again they get off scot free and others have to pay for the damage they do, insurance hikes and council tax hikes as well as possible tax hikes for the more wealthy sends out the wrong message and once again the wrong people are punished over and over again.

There is nothing you can say which will make me agree with it, we'll have to agree to differ. :-)

So it is more a question of who can afford to help

Just to clarify what are we talking about here to pay for ? Is it paying for the damage or paying for more initiiatives to get the unemployed, uneducated , educated and employed ?

Also it is alot more about just money here is is about turning round and taking more responsibilty for people actions ie your own, your children or your family or your neighbours. I wouldn't hestiate to go round to neighbours and point out about anti social behaviour (trust me I do it now ! ) or challenge anybody I think it out of order and stop the behaviour directly (again I have done this although my OH wasn't very happy when he found I had challenged and stopped a brutal attack in broad daylight , victim would have died but I managed to stop the attack with the result of many broken bones including both knee caps). It turned out he was a known drug dealer who terrorised the neighbourhood he lived in but I stood up to him and because of my actions and the willingness to be a witness he pleaded guilty and was put away for a very long time.

I take action where as a lot of people dont and turn a blind eye because there is a fear based society combined with just blatant apathy.

But, if your asking me to pay for criminals who damage their own country, totally out of order, they need to pay for the damage, working or on the dole it is their responsibility, once again they get off scot free and others have to pay for the damage they do, insurance hikes and council tax hikes as well as possible tax hikes for the more wealthy sends out the wrong message and once again the wrong people are punished over and over again.

There is nothing you can say which will make me agree with it, we'll have to agree to differ. :-)

My sentiments entirely.

Way to go LJS, {{{my hero}}} now that's what this country needs more of, if only the government would take the same stance and get tough on crime.

Wow, your some gal. x

> Just to clarify what are we talking about here to pay for ? Is it paying for the damage or paying for more initiiatives to get the unemployed, uneducated , educated and employed ?
>

Neither :)  I know it was a couple of hours ago but if you remember I was looking to raise the money necessary to bang 'em up! :)
The damage will be paid by insurance although that does not help the small businesses that will not cope with next years premiums :(. 
Now you come to mention it though I do think we are going to have to try to raise more for education and employment generation somewhere along the line and I'm afraid it will be a measely amount if we are going to have to rely on rioters fines.

>A teacher thats disgusting I hope they get struck of the teaching council. When teatchers are dishonest what hope have we for our kids

It said on our news here in Wales that the person "worked in a primary School", it didn't say that it was a teacher!  If the person is a teacher, then I think that you are right furriefriends!

Crikey LJS tough cookie, glad that you surived albeit in several pieces :-P

> I take action where as a lot of people dont and turn a blind eye because there is a fear based society combined with just blatant apathy.

Just now that fear seems justified.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8691976/London-riots-Ealing-resident-fights-for-life-after-mob-attack.html

I'm afraid it will be a measely amount if we are going to have to rely on rioters fines.

But, how about this. :-)

It shouldn't be just a fine, it should be worked on something like a uni loan, (which doesn't affect credit) if they cause £100,000 worth of damage each that's what they have to pay off over their lifetime, if they have stolen then they must pay for what they stole, the honest truth is I don't care if they have to live on bread and water if they owe the country they owe the country.

Those with no jobs should be given placements via the government and only paid the deducted amount.

If this was in place, you wouldn't get many causing damage and crime not if it is attached to their lives until paid off.

> It shouldn't be just a fine, it should be worked on something like a mortgage loan, if they cause £100,000 worth of damage each that's what they have to pay off over their lifetime, if they have stolen then they must pay for what they stole, the honest truth is I don't care if they have to live on bread and water if they owe the country they owe the country.

I may be an excellent idea in terms of deterent and worth emailing your MP :) but can the country wait 25 years for the cash to dribble in?  As someone pointed out prison costs are not primarily food and personal care they are mostly made up of security and we wouldn't want to skimp on that.

Yes right now one against a mob of rioters is not the best time to stand up for what you believe in :-)

A group of riot police vs the scum bags yes that is fair game and would stand behind the police and support them in anyway I could.

I think monetary fine are not the answers they need to pay a debt to the communities that they have harmed, so long community service sentences are needed and maybe it could give them an insight to the harm they have done to these victims.It has been quite successful in terms of rehabilitating offenders by confronting them directly with their victims and seeing how it has affected their lifes.

> I take action where as a lot of people dont and turn a blind eye because there is a fear based society combined with just blatant apathy.

Edmund Burke (Irish Statesman 1727-79) said:
'All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing'

But as an Emergency services Instructor teaching major incident scene management, I would have to voice caution at anyone electing to 'step in' to mob violence as our already stretched Emergency services particularly ambulance cover get further stretched with yet another casualty where there may have only been one.

(But knowing you personally as I do Lucy, you know Liv without her work hat on is silently 'yayyy'-ing you ;-))

I agree Liv but I did do a risk assessment of the situation at the time and as there were about 30 people standing watching the attack happen and I knew that I did have at least the chance of somebody backing me up especiallly as there were some burley men who I thought at least would never let a man attack a woman in broad daylight !

> long community service sentences are needed and maybe it could give them an insight to the harm they have done to these victims.

Yes, I am all for that as well.

For those who are disappointed in judicial system punishment of those guilty of Burgalry,public disorder etc:
Council leaders in affected boroughs are considering serving eviction notice on any council tenants found guilty of taking part in the mayhem. Greenwich council have already issued their notice and Croydon are in discussion still... 

I do wonder sometimes how a simple little forum like this with everyday people on it can do some brilliant brainstorming, we all have our little ideas, yet watching the houses of parliament and listening to our MP's they don't appear to come up with much of a change year in year out, they are all full of waffle with no substance.

They are supposed to have good educated minds yet so often on here and talking amongst our friends/family/neighbours there is more common sense and solution.

Most people I talk too, just want a tougher Britain, you would think that is the solution they would come up with too, but alas it always falls short..................

Maybe there will be a grandma, grandpa and housewife party next year, we'll get more sense. :-)

Where will they go though Liv? Chucking them out on the streets isn't the answer surely ?

Well HG that makes me smile a lot, that is a brilliant move. :-)

Bring back the prison hulks I say :-D Deportation to an uninhabited island (Don't think Australia will take them nowadays :-) ) . Wasn't that what they used to do? As a matter of interest do they still read the Riot Act to mobs like this Liv?

Joking aside, this had very little to do with society's 'poorest', I earn a reasonable salary and can't afford a blackberry (well I could but refuse to pay that much for a phone!! ). This was all opportunistic thieving and mobs looking for trouble. I hope everyone on here, family and friends are safe. They are sending the Scottish Riot Police down now apparently - good job we are useful for something eh ;-). No riots up here - it's too bl**dy cold and wet!! :-D

No it turns out he is a learning mentor/teaching assistant but I still say the same anyone working in a school in such close contact with the students need to be a good role model. How can you mentor students whatever your role when you are involved with something like this. You have to set the right example otherwise it makes a mockery of what you do.

Our kids deserve better

from very cross of croydon