Well the place I work outskirts of Birmingamnwas targeted last night, we work 24/7 normaly to replen/fill the store at night I am covering due to too illness at the moment and we had our doors bricked glass and doors broken and sheered from their runners and swinging free, I was showered in broken shards of glass which was tempered, so just a couple of slight marks but one of the bricks was thrown in my general direction (not at me I don't think but through the glass and landed/bounced stopping about a foot from my feet, luckily I was walking backwards at the time.....could not turn my back in case they rushed forward I shouted two words first "Oi" after I heard the banging (did not think it was rioters) thought something had fallen was falling.............I as I said shouted "Oi" really loud then they carried on throwing bricks broke the glass (not easy) and ran at the doors I shouted "Help"

Police were brilliant honestly, came ASAP within minutes of the call. Then called back through out the night, they seemed as uneasy as we were I do not envy them responding to call outs with nothing more than well nothing. We secured our broken doors with 8x4 sheets of wood and held that in place with tonne bags of sand/cement. We are closed tonight for staff safety. Will see how we go for tomorrow.

No one was hurt at all but did shake us up this happened about 11pm and we could hear them through the night.

It is irritating because we are giving in to yobs......mindless idiots........who are being given a power boost by people closing shops places in fear..........maybe we should do the reverse and everyone shop at nights because they only act under the cover of darkness. Cowards.They find strength in numbers...........bullies and cowards all of them. I feel for the police honestly I mean what chance do they have and the yobs are stretching them as far as they can by doing hit and wreck in loads of places.............Hope all are safe.

Oh, Kazz, how terrifying for you!  I am so glad you were not hurt and please don't think of it as giving in by ensuring staff are safe.  Nobody would expect you to be braver than you have been already.  Property can be replaced.

my autistic daughter has just said to me if that was me and my sisters doing the looting and rioting we would not come home, i just smiled and said why would that be, she said we would rather hand ourselves into protective police than have to face you.
And that is what is wrong the kids do not care what the parents think especially when the parents encourage it, if a child does not know right from wrong who the hell is supposed to teach them , you cannot say teachers they have enough on their plates as it is.
And the young so called lady on the tv that said if you don't disrespect us then we won't disrespect you why did the interviewer not ask her how did the flower shop or the butcher disrespect you when you burned out and looted their shops what have they ever done to you , give you the wrong flowers or chop the fat off your pork chop, why did the interviewer not show her up to be the ignorant little oik she is, because that is all you get off them now you don't diss me bet they don't even know what the word means.

Locking people up may or may not stop them being criminals, but at least they are not bothering me or my neighbours.

That's going to be an interesting point of view in the light of 'austerity budget' thinking. The Howard League estimate a cost of at least £40,000 for incarcerating a single individual--multiply that by the 85,000 people in prison and you get £2,320,000,000 as an annual cost. Maybe we can't actually afford the 'lock em up' approach anymore.

Don't know if this has been mentioned earlier or not, but there was similar trouble in Liverpool last night.

These people should look at what a great country we are lucky to live in, and my thoughts go out to the police as they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. 

I am staff too.....and after this we pulled the staff together last night and said if we are targeted again "this is what we do" and had an exit plan (now writing that is sickening) because I was at work earning a living and was put in a position by these "people" to feel unsafe within my workplace. While they were out causing chaos and fear.

Our motto was we make sure we are safe, end of.

I wonder if "we" the silent majority have been too complacent over the years and allowed ourselves to be guided  by the social misfits/scroungers and do-gooders. Maybe this is a sharp tap on the shoulders can we not for instance revisit laws and give back the rights to society? Discipline and respect.  Let's not have a society that is "a criminal justice system" but a change to a "victim justice system" 
We do loads to support the criminal, new identities, food, care, free education while in jail etc etc but what about the victims in the crime. Pensioners and people in long term care are worse off than the average criminal behind bars.

They are doing this because they believe they can get away with it because there is not a strong enough deterrent.  

Maybe this is our wakeup call.  And before the "silent majority" Become the downtrodden minority.

> Maybe we can't actually afford the 'lock em up' approach anymore.

We can't and not sure it would improve these people anyway. 
Better to have community service.  Good hard work, properly policed, hand in hand with the sort of remodelling National Service performed.  Give them the chance to see how different values can improve your life even if it doesn't bring riches.

The Howard League estimate a cost of at least £40,000 for incarcerating a single individual--multiply that by the 85,000 people in prison and you get £2,320,000,000 as an annual cost. Maybe we can't actually afford the 'lock em up' approach anymore.

It costs £40,000 a year for each prisoner, good grief - no wonder there was a wee talk of bringing back capital punishment, well, I still (given my way) want to lock them up perhaps the parents could foot the food bill at least for their wayward child until the age of 21? Might help to bring back accountability for some at least.

Mind you at the worst most of them need only do a few weeks in prison along with community service so the bill would be greatly reduced.

Seems like a good cause for a lottery handout. :-)

t costs £40,000 a year for each prisoner

It costs that much to keep them in the lap of luxury, bring over the american prison tent citys- can't see it costing 40k a year to run them!

Pleased you are ok Kazz, it must have been very frightening,

Your right we are the silent majority and your right again that criminals are far better off and taken care of than a pensioner who has worked all their life, struggling to pay for heating and food. The human rights brigade offer them all the luxuries many law abiding citizens can't afford, tv's, music, good food, gyms, trades, they are kept stimulated and amused............ somethings gone wrong.

Yep! That is what we should be doing Boody. :-)

Wasn't going to post again on this thread - but just saw this on the BBC Website and thought it was just a little apt :)

Fact of the Day:

The word 'adolescent' comes from one of two Latin verbs spelt adoleo. One means 'to make bigger' and the other means 'to emit a smell'

:) :)

Are the phone networks and FB slow around london tonight, got a message off my mom to say they had started by her but no reply since.

My connections are slow ( 3m from Croydon)

Just had a look on e bay for a mobile to see what price they were going for, there were 23,000  Blackberry Bold's, I'm sure there are not normally this amount! I will wait for the shop to restock!

Just spoke to her she's ok.

Just had a look on e bay for a mobile to see what price they were going for, there were 23,000  Blackberry Bold's,

Wonder where they've all come from.

mmm probably an increase in trainers for sale as well

My two boys, 13 and 16, are both on the autistic spectrum. They've said exactly the same thing as judgedredd's daughter!

I think that I'm probably too strict over their behaviour BUT I know where they are and what they're doing. It would be easier to let them run wild but it's my responsibility to teach them right from wrong. That's what a lot of these kids are missing out on, correct parental guidance.

> hopefully to give a bit more perspective

Thank you HG - that was a very good explanation - The clip I saw showed the dogs pulling their handlers across the road and then one bringing down a man who was walking across in front.  No we could not see if he had been asked to stop by the officers before hand and it was not a good image to show - a guilty man was hardly going to start running in front of those dogs.   

More pockets of violence hits more towns and cities overnight.. This is beyond a joke now, seriously it needs to STOP!!!

Im joining the bandwagon and I think the rot started a long time ago.
Now I was an abused child and I was educated in my formative years in a school for maladjusted children (yep we had bit signs affixed to us).
Im now 56 married (3rd time) for over 20 years hurrah!!! but it took until I was 35 to sort out my head and my heart.

I have two sons and I divorced their Dad after being abandoned when the boys were 2.5 and 6 months.

I have never ever ever stolen anything, broken anything or beaten anyone up neither have my sons.

So I think I would fit in some of your catagories to be a dissaffected youth, why wasnt I? I respected my father, my grandparents and I knew that they loved me. We didnt have a lot of money when I was small we had the outhouse and I slept with my brother when my little brother was born.

I was taught from very small that I was as good as anyone else but I was no better than anyone else and if I did wrong at home or school I got a wack for it. I respected my teacher and no back chat from me.

When did we change as a society making kids numero uno!! I went places if it was convieniant to my Mum & Dad they did not build their life around me.
If anyone in my generation had an illigitimite baby NO ONE GAVE US A HOUSE. I was not taught to expect a living or anything from the state I had to work for it.

From 16 when I left boarding school I had to work for my £1 a week and I went to college I always worked from collecting Nannies groceries after school for 3d, aged about 5 until now.

We had bad boys around they ended up in Borstol they didnt go back either!

What we are lacking is discipline in the home and school and respect for anyone or thing. No one owes anyone a living we earn the right to be a member of society, dont make excuses for underpriviledged kids, my Dad's mum had 14 kids n 1 3 bedroom house they didnt end up in prision rioting ect they went to war for this society.

We arent going to fix things in this multi cultural society because that is what we have, no common ground, no shared religion, cultural background we are a hotch potch that isnt mixing. How can some kids cope when the language, religion behaviour at home is different from school, or the streets. No excuses because the govt. has to shoulder some of the blame for their immigration policies. Lets not excuse our home grown anachists either - they do not want to share anything its the blacks fault, the muslims fault andyone but them.

You cannot stuff millions of people from different backgrounds into cities and get it to work if they do not wish to adapt to thier adopted country.

I dont think there is an answer just a problem that we need to address.

And yes at 3 I knew not to steal and I knew who I was and who my parents were, it was installed in me very early. You are responsible for your actions because you should know right from wrong and at 8 I would shove the little bugger in a home because the one he/she was in (if they had committed a crime) was b no good and there would still be a chance to save that kid.

I Feel better now!!!

The word 'adolescent' comes from one of two Latin verbs spelt adoleo. One means 'to make bigger' and the other means 'to emit a smell'

:-D :-D :-D Oh boy, with a houseful of teenage boys at present that is sooooo..... right, wow, I never knew it meant that, explains a lot. :-D

I also have my friends teenage autistic son here at the moment and he is just so upset by what is going on too, his values of right and wrong are bulletproof, one thing I can say about him and actually everyone in my home at present none of them could ever be enticed to throw bricks at shop windows or police officers, those kids out there are a different breed to children I know and understand.

I hope that it all ends soon.

Brilliant post whistler straight from the horses mouth so to speak ( where is that like button ) Your words should be given to someone in power to reflect on and act on.
Like the way you describe the multicultral aspect of the country

Here, here Whistler excellent post. :-)

And yes at 3 I knew not to steal and I knew who I was and who my parents were, it was installed in me very early. You are responsible for your actions because you should know right from wrong and at 8 I would shove the little bugger in a home because the one he/she was in (if they had committed a crime) was no good and there would still be a chance to save that kid.

This is why the line of trying to understand and sympathise from the 'let's understand them' brigade should stop.

No matter what the background or how some have been dragged up with no real guidance or love (if that is the excuse we are giving this rabble)

These rioters do know, they shouldn't break windows and set fires
They do know they shouldn't take things without paying for them
They do know they shouldn't throw bricks at police officers, police dogs, police horses
They do know they are breaking the law

They don't need a good role model to tell them that, they know what they are doing and therefore should have the full book of the law thrown at them, no excuses.

Yes carrington I agree with what you are saying my problem is what happens next.
While we are punishing them however is deemed suitable we must identify the underlying causes and rehabilitate or we go round in the same circle again.
Then guess who pays in the long run ? Either that of or lock everyone up and throw away the key ... not practical

my problem is what happens next.

Mass sterilization? :-D Nope only joking (I'll get a brick thrown at my head for suggesting that!)

Well firstly, the culprit needs their first lesson of what they did is wrong, they need and have to understand that. That first punishment needs to happen. The law cannot be seen to be weak and taken advantage of, the youth of today who are criminals can commit crime after crime and nothing happens to them, it needs to change, there has to be a deterrent an instigated, immediate deterrent. Borstal was a great fear when I was a child.

Getting to the root of family breakdown and good role models I can't see a quick fix furriefriends, I really can't,  if ever! We have social services working flat out, community youth groups trying their hardest, child psychologists ten a penny, I can't see how to fix humanely a problem of people having children who are not prepared mentally and emotionally to give all they need.

All I can suggest is how to stop the crime and show that crime doesn't pay no matter what your background or emotional state, it has to be the starting point.

On a funny note this really tickled me there is a facebook page saying:

Cameron leaves Nick Clegg in charge for 5 minutes and England goes to...... (pot - not the real word, but more appropriate) :-D :-D

sorry I am still laughing have heard that one before usually in the pub !

It is atough one as i have said I work in a centre for secondary studetns who are excluded from school and are often like the ones we are describing. Respect /fear of authority is often completley missing regardless of whta you put in. By the time students get to us they have usually been through many interventions (if the parents admit problems or agree to help) and still cannot get their heads round social behaviours even in small ways. Some do want to put it right do want to learn. Some have real mental health problems or learning difficulties and emotional and behavioural difficulties and by secondary age behaviours are well ingrained good or bad
many do have stories behind them and you can see why they value little least of all themselves apart from materials items,  but as you say thats not and excuse and somehow we need to tackle that.

It has been said that these children are a lost generation but if thats the case are we going to rely on the many good well brought up young people to bring up the next generation with morals.
As for children having children yes that is true. When I was little borstal was a scary word although I didnt really understand what it was and as for having a child out of marriage well ! i am not saying it should be like that there there was plenty wrong with the 50's
Life has changed some for the good some for the bad. Yes we must stop the crime for the benefit of all of us
it is a starting point as you say. Maybe looking at other countries ? I dont know.
Anyway think its time I got out before I get to deep into this and depress myself more:) and the pup is currently chewing her way through a tilet roll thinking she is an andrex puppy ! that I can cure :):)

like the fb post carrington

>The law cannot be seen to be weak and taken advantage of, the youth of today who are criminals can commit crime after crime and nothing happens to them, it needs to change,

There was a 'yoof' from Liverpool interviewed on the radio this morning saying that he'd stop doing this looting and rioting when he got bored with it. "What's the law gonna do? The prisons are full so they won't send me there. An ASBO? That's nuffin". The tragedy is that he's right. The current laws are far too soft for people who just don't care and have no self-esteem or sense of shame.

Agreed with a lot of your post but its not a problem that can be tackeled by throwing money at it or taking disadvantaged kids on holiday, and the 50's produced most people that made great strides in the world internet, computers ect.

The first thing I would do is chuck most mobiles down the nearest drain. I have workman who use a phone 24/7 why do you need to know who has had a dump, that the groceries are too expensive at work? I went into banking I could not say "hold on a minute I need to ask my Mum to get in the washing" I needed to work to earn money. 24/7 texting/ ect is mind numbingly awful talk about 1984 - if you havent got the right Iphone or Blackberry you nick it!!!!!!!!!

At school we were incommunicardo all day, and if you got told off your Mum or Dad at home would want to know about it and it was your fault not the teacher's - and I brought my son's up to respect them and I backed them 100%, even if they were wrong I would take that up with them privately for an explaination later.

We must start somewhere, I agree prison will often send them out worse but Borstol was not a holiday camp and youth facilities should not be either, no TV no games, exercise, teaching, an exclusion until they could see right or wrong. At school we debated punishment as a school not the Headmaster or Mistress but their peers, and I was punished with no tv or tuck once - it only took once - (someone bad mouthed my Mum and Dad). I learnt to live with people I did not particularly like, but I respected them as individulas with problems - just like me. I wasnt different I was ME! when that sunk in I found who I was and liked me so i could like others. Its a tough lesson and 1 that took me from 1966 - 1971 away from my home.

We must try as a community to address social problems and stop making certain concessions to religion and race but just be BRITISH - its too late to ship everyone back where they came from but we must be all inclusive - but with MORAL STANDARDS and BEHAVIORAL STANDARDS with no compromise.

Sorry getting carried away here, Viv Brooks Moral Standards lesson ends here. Loving the debate its making me think!

Another news story today is that Wandsworth Prison has come under fire for a catalogue of safety failures, that staff are using foul language towards the prisoners and that the prison is more like a warehouse than the luxury hotel it should be.

In a damning report, Nick Hardwick, the Chief Inspector of Prisons, said the treatment of many offenders at Wandsworth jail was "demeaning, unsafe and fell below what could be classed as decent".

Oh boohoo, poor murderers, rapists, muggers, and child abusers. Yet another reason why our country's in the state it is, being locked up is no longer a deterrent for some, it's a holiday.

I like your thinking Miss Brookes :) although we had different upbringings at the  same time as I am your age and with other similarities. The basics were the same, I cannot get my head round violence, stealing etc and have bought my children up the same way
At work we take the kids mobiles etc off them when they come to school and hand them back at the end of the day  not without a fight in some cases after they have hidden them about their person. Fortunately like some of our local colleges we use detectors  to check for any unacceptable items including phones which helps us when they come in.   It was something bought in recently and has worked well and has made a difference in class or at least reduced one of the things for the students to argue about and also not allowing them to have their phones during the day reduces inappropriate social communication which we know inflamed the riots.
Being a phone addict I know it takes a while to wean yourself off but I do think we are bringing up people who cant do anything without refering to each other and also cant work independantly.
now I am going off the point sorry so I will stop there

I would love to see New York Mayor Giullianis way.....ZERO TOLERANCE.
The city streets should be safe for all of us at all times.
Some dim child here in GY has been taken already for jokingly posting 'lets get together and do it here'.
Taking him in immediatly that is Zero Tolerance, I hope they embarass him royally.

Karen

what do they do tehy do in a case like that ? we have a16yearold that has been bought in for inciting a riot on fb

a guilty man was hardly going to start running in front of those dogs.No, when the police dogs used to come to my place of work to help bring control to teh little 'darlings', they stood very very still and almost cried.  The police man on the other end was not going to mess about with them.  one good thjing for leicestershire police, they didn't mess about.  don't know if its the same now though, like people say, they are worried about be procicuted themselves or breaking human right crap.

I've skimmed through most of the posts, so many lol,  hope everyone is still safe and ok.  Hope yo're ok now Kazz.

It gets my goat up when its blamed on anything except complete lack discipline and control of them, there is no other excuse.  Any parent found to know their spawn was involved should also be prosicuted.  i actually thought the other night some of these hard hitting countries have the right idea, this wouldn't happen, that is so scary to think.

Schools should have their control back and children should be treated like children again and all these silly rights takenj away from them.  They can learn values like generations before them.  We never disrespected our elders or told them they were to respect us.

Just read some more, Whistler that is so true, we managed it and many others.

These kids don't deserve respect at the minute but they do deserve a smack. its discusting that they can what they want and terorise good decent people and take their livelyhoods off them.  If you dared to try and stop one of them doing wrong, you end up in court and on the same register as a sex offender.

Agreed my OH takers his phone into Sainsbury's!! we went to the Royal Albert Hall - phone in the car, when he got back in the car he checked his emails - HELLO its Saturday night we as a couple are out on the town - did I go off on one.

What would happen in an emergancy - Ive got to 56 without having a mobile attached to my ear 24/7 - I bet some one near would have a phone. I do have mine in my pocket on long walks but half the time there would be no signal.

I use facebook and talk to Ben in NZ - he has just messaged to say its all an excuse to steal.

Sam thinks they are scum! not a phrase I am in favour of but they know right from wrong, and I was a single Mum!!

Whats wrong with society? - too much bending each way to accomodate people, no role models a footballer who cant keep it in their trousers "Big Brother" do me a favour!!

He He old grumpy women coming through - now to walk Whistler, get back to what is good in life, and a good book. AND NO MOBILE PHONE.

Im not an addict but did you see the tv the other day with a family sat at the table with 4 mobiles going!! I saw a Mum in tenerife who sat her toddler down at the table in front of a portable DVD! whats wrong with TALKING TO HIM - Whewww all this is bad for me.

I sorrow for the old days, and old values but most of all for a generation of kids who do not know what they want to be when they grow up - because sometimes that is nothing. No dreams or aspirations, we have a lot to answer for.

Viv
XX

here here reikiangel :) goodness I going back to work is going to be hard with the mindset I am in atm
Yes time to get back to what is good going to walk the dog then the ironing , did I really say that 

Re mobile phones I like it that these louts have all got the latest models.!!! In fact last night on FB Blackberry suspended their messaging service to stop these people communicating with each other re the riots.

I hope its all settled by the time you go back to work, its not easy at the moment.

There are still some good ones for you to belive in that will cross your path, they'll shine.

We need to go back to the old fashioned days, never thought those words would trip out of mouth.

We had trouble last night about 4odd streets away, the silly idotts smashed their own street up, still got arrested thank god.  Don't think they were ready to leave the nest yet.  Waiting to see my local paper, will ahve to wait for the late edition due to the time of night it.  I'm pleased to say we got off lightly here so far.  12 miles away was a different story.

They're so deprived their mobile probably isn't as upto date as they would like, my heart bleeds for this injsutice :) :)

Just looked at my other post and appologise for all the spelling mistakes, painkillers hadn't kicked in sufficiently. :)

dont worry I havent even got the excuse of painkillers just brain thinks faster than fingers. Hope you feel better soon x

It remains to be seen, even if nothing it will be a huge embarassment.
The community is so small.

Karen

So much for the looters being dealt with quickly, yes some of them have already been up in court, but guess what, they'll be sentenced at a later date as they need to go to the Crown Court ! wonder how many months/years that'll take, politicians should just keep their mouths shut, it's all very well for them to say we'll do this that and the other, but at the end of the day it's not them that has to do the actual work. I honestly don't think any of them give tuppence for Joe Public, just keeping themselves in power.

if you find out it was someone that works for you that was looting can you dismiss them or would they be able to take you for unfair dismisal ?

Apparently just one person has been sentenced so far. For stealing a couple of T shirts he was given just one day in jail but, as he had already served this, he was released !!

Full weight of the law or what !!??

I'm reaading a twitter feed from croydon court and alot of them so far have been refused bail even one who stole a pack of biscuits, WTF would you steal biscuits?????

> yes some of them have already been up in court, but guess what, they'll be sentenced at a later date as they need to go to the Crown Court !

Yes, I would have liked to see some swift punishments but Magistrates courts would never be able to give what is appropriate here. 
Not just the greater punishments, the last thing we want is people successfully appealing as the evidence was not gathered or examined properly, letting them off the hook and even getting compensation!

A teacher thats disgusting I hope they get struck of the teaching council. When teatchers are dishonest what hope have we for our kids

It costs that much to keep them in the lap of luxury

Boody, anyone who has ever had a look inside a prison, let alone spent time in one, could not describe it as "the lap of luxury." It might be the case that prisoners have better living conditions than you would like to see, but that's a different matter.

Some years ago there was an article in the press pointing out that it cost more to feed the prison dog than the prisoner. The lion's share of the £40,000 will be made up of prison staff salaries.

They said that they are bypassing magistrates and going straight to Crown to ensure swift and tough sentences. It means anything upto ten years for being involved in riots :-)